Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 286

Thursday, January 13 2000

• Annoyance
• Was re: Haredim and Internet; Now: Freedom of Choice
• RE: Conservative/Reform/Orthodox/Whatever - Who cares?
• RE: (No Subject)
• RE: Haredim and Internet
• Re: Avodah V4 #284
• Is the Golan a Part of Eretz Israel?
• Re: Mixed Seating
• Re: Mitzva Tanz
• sephardic pronunciation
• Re: Prayers of Anguished woman
• techelet
• Re: talking in shul
• Internet-humor alert

This report from the e-mail Yated drives me (specifically) crazy. You would
think, from reading it, that there are no female principals in schools that
are under the TuM umbrella. The irony is that the essay was written by a
woman!

As the husband of the principal of a Bais Yaakov HS, I am annoyed.

It is almost enough to make pro-yo'atzot (don't worry, not quite :-) ).

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Yated USA <yated-usa@ttec.com>
To: <yatedsubscribers@ttec.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 1:13 PM
Subject: News IV


> Yated Neeman USA News IV
> Stellar Program Planned for Torah Umesorah's Annual Mid-Winter Principals
> Conference
> by Rochelle Maruch Miller
>
> If sunny southern skies and Miami's balmy temperatures beckon during this
> time of year, you might not consider Chicago as the ideal venue to escape
> midwinter's dismal pall. But according to Rabbi Zev Meisels, Menahel of
> Joan Dachs Bais Yakov and Yeshiva Tiferes Tzvi, the excitement is palpable
> throughout the community as the date of Torah Umesorah's National
Midwinter
> Principals Conference nears. "This conference will bring warmth and beauty
> to a cold, windy city and bring the beauty and progressive activities of
> Torah Umesorah to the Midwest chinuch community," explained Rabbi Meisels,
> during an exclusive interview with the Yated. Together with Rabbi Meir
> Shapiro, Principal of the Arie Crown Hebrew Day School in Skokie, Rabbi
> Meisels is Host Co-Chairman of the Conference. And what an event it
> promises to be, attracting an all-star program of Roshei Yeshiva, rebbeim,
> principals and chinuch professionals. Indeed, the convention will feature
a
> combination of informal sessions and opportunities for mechanchim across
> the country to network and share ideas with their colleagues in a smaller,
> congenial and more homey environment.
> The Conference will begin at the Radisson Hotel Lincolnwood on Wednesday,
> January 26th, and move into the community for Shabbos, with guests staying
> with host families. Following registration, mincha and a gala reception,
> Rabbi Baruch M. Hilsenrath Ed.D., Principal of the Bess and Paul Sigel
> Hebrew Academy of West Hartford, Ct., and Conference Chairman, will
deliver
> the opening address during Dinner.
> Dr. Simcha Chesner, Ph.D., Director of Kiryat Limudim in Eretz Yisrael ,
> will present "I've Tried Everything in the Book and It Doesn't Work; How
to
> Really Educate the Challenged Child." On Thursday, Dr. Chesner will begin
> the second part of the Professional Seminar by presenting "Coping With the
> ADHD Child in the Mainstream Classroom; Application to Limudei Kodesh
> Subjects With Special Emphasis on Chumash and Gemorah." Rabbi Moshe
> Possick, Executive Vice President of the National Conference of Yeshiva
> Principals, lauded Dr. Chesner as being an expert in his field. "We are
> bringing Dr. Chesner to share his expertise in dealing with the challenged
> child in the mainstream classroom. Every one of us is challenged-it
depends
> in which capacity. Most schools tend to teach to students in one or two
> modalities. Dr. Chesner will teach us how to effectively teach the child
> who does not fit into those modalities."
> Following lunch, the Professional Seminar will continue with a
> fascinating presentation: "Incremental Learning-Gemarah Teaching in
Action;
> A Multimedia Presentation. Rabbi Meisels were serve as Facilitator of this
> session, with Rabbi Moshe Binyomin Perlstein, Principal of Cheder
> Lubavitch; Rabbi Ephraim Kletenik, Rebbe and Principal of General Studies,
> Yeshiva Tiferes Tzvi and Rabbi Eli Samber, Rebbe, Ari Crown Hebrew Day
> School as featured Presenters.
> Rabbi Shlomo Morgenstern, Shlita, Rosh Yeshiva of Hebrew Theological
> College in Skokie, will address the guests during Dinner. A Symposium
> entitled "Making Schools User Friendly for Our Students" will follow,
> featuring Rabbi Sholom Strajcher, Principal of Yeshiva University of Los
> Angeles Girls' High School and Rabbi Henoch Plotnick, Morah D'Asrah of
Adas
> B'nei Israel in Chicago and Rebbe at Yeshivas Tiferes Tzvi as panelists.
> A highlight of the Convention will be a special meeting between Rav Elya
> Svei, with the mechanchim and chavrei kollel. The Rosh Yeshiva will also
> meet with the Yeshiva and day school children of the community on Friday
> morning.
> Commencing with Mincha and Kabbalas Shabbos, the Joan Dachs Bais Yaakov
> will be the venue for the entire Shabbos program. Following Kabbalas
> Shabbos, the Major Address will be delivered by Rav Avrohom Chaim Levin,
> Shlita, Rosh Yeshiva, Yeshiva Telshe, Chicago and a member of the Rabbinic
> Administrative Board of Torah Umesorah.
> During the Seudas Shabbos, Reb Yaakov Rajchenbach, President of Torah
> Umesorah and a prominent memberof the Chicago community, will address the
> guests. Rabbi Shalom Diskind, Menahel of Yeshiva Sheiris Yisroel, the
> Veitzner Cheder will give the D'var Torah. "Impacting Our Students' Live;
> Raising Them Intellectually and Spiritually" is the theme of the Keynote
> Address which will be given by Rabbi Oren Reich, Rosh Yeshiva of Perth
> Amboy, New Jersey.
> On Shabbos Kodesh, between Shacharis and Mussaf, the mispallelim will have
> the privilege of hearing Rav Chaim Dov Keller, Rosh Yeshiva of Yeshiva
> Telshe in Chicago, address them. During the Seudas Shabbos, Rabbi Elya
> Svei, Rosh Yeshiva, Yeshiva of Philadelphia and Yoshev Rosh, Rabbinical
> Administrative Board of Torah Umesorah will speak
> On Motzoei Shabbos, Covention Chairman Rabbi Boruch Hilsenrath, Ed.D.,
> will present a session entitled, "Educational and Religious Priorities;
> Understanding Parents' Needs and What They Really Expect From the Day
> School," followed by "Leader as a Changemaster," presented by Avi Shulman,
> Mercaz Teacher Training Program and Teacher, Torah Umesorah's Aish Dos.
> In conjunction with the Conference, Rabbi Hershel Fried will be conducting
> a workshop on Sunday afternoon for a select group of 25 teachers
> introducing the Torah Umesorah Be'er Haitaiv Reading Scan, a breakthrough
> tool in diagnosing reading problems.
> The Annual National Mid-Winter Principals Conference is a not-to-be-missed
> event featuring a rich program of superb seminars and workshops in the
> Torah Umesorah tradition. One of the highlights of the Conference is an
> informal meeting where principals will be afforded the opportunity to ask
> the Roshei Yeshiva "shaylos" in a close and informal setting. Outstanding
> Torah educators from all over the world will converge in Chicago during
> January 26 through 30th to participate in this extraordinary itinerary of
> Divrei Torah and professional enrichment.
>

Do we really believe in freedom of choice?

What about "kofin oso ad she'yomar rotzeh ani."

Or "afrushei mei'issura?"

We believe in free will, not free choice, no?

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Chaim Turkel <cyturel@hotmail.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2000 12:22 AM
Subject: Haredim and Internet


> Hi,
>   Just a thought. Since one of the basic beliefs in judiasm is the fredom
of
> choice, you would think that every person should have the right (and the
> obligation) to choose for himself right from wrong. There is no more harm
in
> the internet then there is every where else. What ever you can find on the
> internet you can find in the city. There for to ban the internet is a act
> that goes agains the idea of fredom of choice (since there are very good
> things on the internet - like this list).
>
> chaim turkel
>

> you indicate above, however, it seems that if this
> fight is won, there is another fight just around the
> corner between all of the factions in Orthodoxy about
> acceptance of each other's Gereim.

The problem is that a majority (possibly a large majority) of the
conversions done by the Rabbanut are either conversions for marriage (with
no real intention of Kabalat Ohl Malchut Shamayim), conversions for work
(foreign workers who want to remain here), or conversions for convenience
(Russian Olim -- lets just dunk them in the mikvah and the problems go
away).

Even you will admit that none of these reasons are valid for conversion --
thus their non-acceptance.

Akiva


A reality check a day keeps
the delusions at bay (Gila Atwood)

===========================
Akiva Atwood, POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

> written by Shapiro, or even R. Epstein's Mekor Baruch) would

Well, I know from first hand experience (I work for Targum Press) that the
translation of Vol 2 of Mekor Baruch was put in cherem in the US for 'not
accurately portraying the Netziv as we, his Talmidim, know him to have
been'.

> Since every yeshiva type I have met claims to be
> part of those
> in the know, who are the unlettered and unwashed masses that
> supposedly have
> to be kept in the dark about the world. Do they really exist?

Sociologically speaking, a group/community develops it's own personality,
separate from the individual's. This "groupthink" mode is what is being
protected.

Akiva


A reality check a day keeps
the delusions at bay (Gila Atwood)

===========================
Akiva Atwood, POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

> I was forwarded this article from Yated about the "ban". It
> sounds completely different here... I apologize for the
>

"Assur Chamur", the phrase used on the letter, is not the same as
"discouraged".

The Yated article as posted is *very* watered down.

(This weeks english HaModia has a full translation -- if I get the chance
I'll type it in later)

Akiva



A reality check a day keeps
the delusions at bay (Gila Atwood)

===========================
Akiva Atwood, POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

First of all, Gila -- thank you.
Here is another thought, which I used in a Shi'ur I gave,
which is not directly connected:

----- Original Message -----
From: Avodah <owner-avodah@aishdas.org>
To: <avodah-digest@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2000 2:55 AM
Subject: Avodah V4 #284
> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 01:01:00 +0200
> From: "Mrs. Gila Atwood" <gatwood@netvision.net.il>
> Subject: the role of women and its kedusha.
>
> Dear Shoshana and chevra,
>
> To tell you the truth, I did not hurry to answer this one,
expecting all our
> learned chevra to bring beautiful long presentations with
meqoros.  I did
> not feel qualified to contribute at the level you
requested,  with my simple
> understanding and my sad habit of forgetting my sources-
(and little time to
> rediscover them!).  Since you've all been so busy with
other threads I won't
> hold back.

Don't hold back!!!

> There is a gevaldig comparison of a woman's work in the
home with the avodah
> of the cohen gadol. It does indeed have a source-  but of
course I've
> forgotten it, so I'll trust some kind obliging member to
perhaps recall it.
>
>Flour, oil, spices-  vital ingredients in the Beis
hamikdash and
> vital ingredients at home.

Actually the relevant trio is Flour, Wine, Oil  or:   Dagan,
Tirosh and Yizhar.

We find this trio in Birkat Yitzchak to Yaakov together with
the blessing on being dependant on rain (and Birkat Hashem,
vs. Esav who get's abundant water sources).

Why do I mention this?

A year and a half ago, while studying Permaculture, we went
to visit a farm in the Nahal Ayalon region of the Judean
hills.  One of the fascinating aspects of the tour was a
look at the local archeology.   The ancient method of
growing was to have olive trees on terraces and grain was
grown among the trees, and vineyards were grown on other
slopes.  They found there ancient structures for grain
production, oil production, and most importantly - wine
production.

Why is this important?

Because it proves the connection with the Jewish people.
The Moslems who came here took out the vineyards, for the
most part and they don't make wine, so modern day people
coming there only found olive trees and grain.  But the
presence of structures for wine making prove that the area
was once settled by jews.

Another interesting find was that in the walls of the local
pool there were large holes (for want of a better word)
where fish was held.  The theory being that it was too
difficult to get to Jaffa and the sea to catch a fresh fish
every Shabbat, so they raised fish locally for Shabbat use.

Shoshana

A friend fwd this to me, and I'm passing it on.

Shoshana L. Boublil
=====================

>Is the Golan a Part of Eretz Israel?
>
>Responsa by Rav Shlomo Aviner
>
>Although statements have been made implying that the Golan
is not an integral
>part of Eretz Israel, our sages divide Eretz Israel into
three regions:
>Judah, the East Bank of the Jordan (including the Golan),
and Galilee. In the
>responsa Birkei Yosef (Orach Chaim 489), there is a
lengthy, detailed
>discussion regarding performance of mitzvot and the
relative sanctity of the
>East Bank of the Jordan, but there is no question that it
is part of Eretz
>Israel. The Chazon Ish proves that wherever the twelve
tribes lived must
>automatically be considered part of Eretz Israel; were this
not so, the
>mitzva of shmitta could never have been observed anywhere,
as it is dependent
>upon "all tribes residing in Eretz Israel," and the tribes
of Reuven, Gad and
>half of Menashe never lived anywhere else but on the East
Bank. Were the East
>Bank not part of Eretz Israel, it would mean that they
never lived in Eretz
>Israel, and that would invalidate the mitzva of shmitta.
>
>Furthermore, none of the Rishonim ever explicitly wrote
that the East Bank is
>not part of Eretz Israel. Even the Ran, who wrote that the
verse, "And Gd
>will implant in you an irate heart" refers to those
dwelling on the East
>Bank, explains that this is because they are exempt from
certain mitzvot,
>such as the Omer. However, he did not write that it is not
part of Eretz
>Israel (Nedarim 22a). Even the Tashbetz, who is extremely
strict in his
>definitions, and presents a detailed list of distinctions,
does not state
>that the East Bank is not a part of Eretz Israel. He asks
why Moshe Rabeinu
>was so eager to cross the Jordan if the East Bank is also
part of Eretz
>Israel, and his answer is that he wanted to be buried
"beneath the altar," a
>concept which only applies to the West Bank of Eretz
Israel, and that the
>East Bank is described in Joshua 22:19 as "impure land"
(Tashbetz part III).
>However, nowhere does he suggest that it might not be an
integral part of
>Eretz Israel.
>
>Obviously, there are levels of sanctity in Eretz Israel.
Even on the East
>Bank of the Jordan, there is a difference between the
southern region, Judah,
>and the northern region, the Galilee. And that famous
statement in the book
>of Joshua that the inheritance of the two and a half tribes
is in "impure
>land" can be interpreted in different ways. Rashi takes the
statement
>literally; however Radak understands it to mean, "If the
land of your
>possession seems to you to be impure." In either case, the
East Bank has less
>sanctity than other areas of Eretz Israel, and the Divine
Presence is not
>felt so strongly there. Neither the Mishkan nor Bamot
altars could have been
>built there. Today, of course, that is irrelevant, for the
Beit Hamikdash can
>only be built in Jerusalem.
>
>Therefore, we conclude that the Golan is eternally and
irrevocably an
>integral part of Eretz Israel. Moshe Rabeinu did not
conquer the land of
>Sichon and Og for no purpose. Although other areas of Eretz
Israel may be
>spiritually superior, we do not choose to settle here for
our own personal
>spiritual enrichment, but rather on behalf of the whole
Nation of Israel, who
>are commanded to settle the length and breadth of Eretz
Israel.
>
>Were we to entertain the slightest doubt that the Golan is
not an integral
>part of Eretz Israel, we would still be forbidden to
retreat from the Golan,
>for it is a border town, and Jewish law prohibits
abandoning a border town to
>gentiles because they will utilize it to conquer Eretz
Israel, and to shell
>the Galilee. We must not cede it to our enemies in return
for a pottage of
>lentils and lies.
>
>This however is all irrelevant, for the Golan is an
integral part of Eretz
>Israel. Not one of the earliest rabbis (Rishonim) denies
this. A few
>generations ago, when dedicated Jews sacrificed so much to
establish the
>Golan village of Bnei Yehuda, they asked Rav Yehoshua of
Kotno whether it was
>a mitzva, and he responded that it was a very great mitzva
(Resonsa Yeshuot
>Malko Yoreh Deah 67). They followed his ruling and risked
their lives; the
>clods of earth have soaked up their blood. Who today dares
to disagree with
>this great rabbi?
>
>So too, today, after we have sacrificed so much to conquer
the Golan, and to
>establish settlements there, and since the Knesset has
pronounced the Golan
>an integral inseparable part of the State of Israel, we
shall not retreat,
>but rather reinforce our stand here. Certainly, the voice
of Torah must not
> support weak politicians, but rather pronounce loud and
clear: Do not fear;
>more power to you. The voice of Torah must call out: Come,
in your hundreds,
>your thousands, and your hundreds of thousands to settle in
the Golan. For so
>many years the Golan has been like a widow whose sons have
forsaken her, and
>now they have returned. "The mother of the children
rejoices." "And the sons
>have returned to their borders." We did not risk our lives
in vain, we did
>not fight in vain, and we did not build in vain. We shall
continue to listen
>to the voice calling out from the mountain tops: Children,
return to your
>land and take possession of it; build houses and plant
vineyards, for the
>Eternal One of Israel will not fail.

--- TROMBAEDU@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 1/12/00 5:58:22 PM Eastern
> Standard Time, 
> hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:
> 
> << people who do have mixed seating be disrespected
> in
>  this way? >>
>  Arrgghh....Disrespect is not a verb.
> 
> Sorry, I teach High School.
> 
> Jordan

I ain't so sure bout dat! :)

HM (victim of cultural language-acide)
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

Harry Maryles wrote:

> They also have something called a Mitzvah Tanz where
> the Chasan and Kallah hold hands while they dance,
> after the wedding is over and mostly only family
> members remain which seems a little ridiculous
> considering the lengths they go to to separate men and
> women during the more public wedding and Seudah.

Actually, the few Mitzva Tanzen I've seen can barely be described as
"dancing".

The Chasan and Kallah hold hand (barely) and take a few steps / suffles. The
other "dancers" (usually  - if not always  - close family) will hold the
other end of a gartel and take a few steps while the kalla stands there
mortified.

Why wife tells me that the Kalla dreads this part of the evening.

All this to the backdrop of Mussar sayings said in a "levaya" kind of tune,
and after makiing sure the bochrim have left.

Nothing really un-tznius about it.

Just for the record...

Danny Schoemann
naomi@kosher.com

Ari asks

<< I am interested in both the historical development of  the various
pronunciations of Hebrew as well as the halachik ramifications. I find
it perplexing that despite the fact that most of the early settlers of
modern Israel were Ashkenazim, the Sephardik pronunciation became the
dominant one. Does anyone know how this came about (historically?
motivations?)? Is anyone familiar
with scholarly and halachik research that discusses how and
when the various pronunciations of Hebrew developed and which are more
"authentic"? >>

On the contrary most of the early population of Israel was sephardi
because the Turks did not recognize the European communities.

I have an article in the RJJ journal on the halachot of the
pronunciation.

Eli Turkel

>So I ask Richard also (and anyone else) what the phrase PRAY ON means.
Throughout >tanach it is used for praying AGAINST/ON somebody.

I did mention a possible understanding of this many many posts ago. Perhaps
you missed it or dismissed it- but at any rate I come to bring an answer to
your plea.
The tefila of "macnia zedim" could refer, not to the destruction of our
enemies but to humbling in them in such a way that they might come to do
tshuva. "Kol bidei shamayim chutz miyiras shamayim". Hashem generally does
not determine a person's bechira but can arrange circumstances which can
push a person to take stock and perhaps choose to make the correct decision.
If they still can't do it, Hashem may decide to finish him off and spare the
victim further anguish.
Here I'm only referring to a case where the mesarev is clearly in the wrong
and the woman is definitely a victim.  Even so, as Carl Sherer has pointed
out, we should be extremely afraid to bring din on someone else's head-
even if you're Sarah Imenu. (Breishis 17-5)- she asked for mishpat, not for
din (mishpat is milder, tempered with mercy), but still with consequences
for her. The midrash brings this as a reason for her earlier petira.

Mrs. G.A.

btw I recently saw in the Tanya the reference to a soul termed as an
"almanah chaya" because for whatever reason she is disconnected from Hashem.
Perhaps our deep concern about the agunah situation reflects a deeper
unconscious concern about spiritual galus.

A recent poster mentioned that certain Chassidic Rebbes might hold that it's
good enough to use techeles which may not be from the original chilazon
because it's enough just to have the right colour in a mystic/spiritual
sense?  Is that what you're saying? Please forgive me if my paraphrase is in
error.
First of all, I assume you're talking about techelet derived from Sepia
officinalis (cuttlefish) even though we only use the nitrogen from it, and
the original techelet was probably from something like Murex, or something
other.

You'd have to ask the people who use the cuttlefish dye whether they hold
that they believe they're using authentic 'chilazon'  (likely error) or
whether the colour is the ikkar and if there are either halachic and/or al
pi sod grounds for not being concerned about the traditional  derivation. I
can't speak for them- I only ask to be dan lecaf zchus.

It's also not pashut that techeles was blue. I've heard opinions that it may
be turquoise, or even green.  I've even heard the theory that back then
people were blue/green colourblind and could not distinguish the colour of
the sky from green.  Anyone know sources for this?

(re following a Rebbe's actions, even if he seems to be disregarding
halacha, because that is a way to kedusha-  (despite my chassidic
affiliations)  It seems to me that the chassid should ask a few serious
questions.  He needs to ascertain for sure if halacha is indeed violated,
and if this proves to be the case he has to ask himself whether he should be
following a man who is not concerned about these halachos. Similarly, if a
person is not chassidic and they see chassidim following questionable
practices, it is better to investigate thoroughly why they're acting this
way rather than assume from a distance that they're in the wrong.  (This is
a general remark, and not a criticism of the previous poster. ) Please
contact me offlist for any details and discussion-  I don't want to start a
machlokes here. )

===================================================

On Wed, Jan 12, 2000 at 10:09:25PM -0500, Gershon Dubin wrote:
:                             I believe the Tosfos Yom Tov said many tzoros
: came to Klal Yisrael as a consequence.

I think he specifically said Ta"Ch viTa"t did. The Tos' Y"T also wrote a Mi
sheBeirach for people who don't speak during davening or leining, that I've
been trying to get our gabbai to say as added assistance for my yeitzer hatov
(which doesn't do to hot with this one).

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 13-Jan-00: Chamishi, Bo
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 98b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

I came across the following "tfilas haderech" for web surfers.  Since it
is my belief that most of us are more familiar with tfilas haderech than
with modern Hebrew,  I will transliterate,  and translate the unusual
terms.   My transliteration is not intended to follow any rules,  so
don't jump on me for it:

Yehi ratzon milefanecha shetechabrenu (connect) beshalom vesaglishenu
(surf) beshalom vesagienu la'asar (site) cheftzenu beshalom usenatkenu
(disconnect) beshalom ubezol,  vesatzilenu mikaf kol virus unefila
(crash) baderech,  umikol minei asorei zevel, pritzus va'avodah zara
hamsiragshim lavo ba'olam havirtuali,  vesishlach beracha bechol ma'aseh
achborenu (mouse) vesitnenu lechen ulerachamim be'einei kol masach
(screen),  vesishma kol arnakenu, ki shome'ah tefila vesachanun ata
umeginenu mibitul zman.

Gershon

*********************


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