Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 308

Thursday, January 20 2000

• Re: Dud Shemesh
• Re: intrinsic value of mitzvos
• Re: intrinsic value of mitzvos
• RE: Is having mixed seating "sordid"
• Hafleh vaFeleh - humor alert
• Re[2]: intrinsic value of mitzvos
• RE: Avodah V4 #307
• Re: intrinsic value of mitzvos
• Re: Hafleh vaFeleh - humor alert
• The Rebbe.org SNS EXCLUSIVE + Ban the Web? Not Lubavitch Jew
• Re: Dud Shemesh
• Dud Shemesh
• Re: mxed seating at weddings
• Fwd: Refua Shlaima
• wurst fabriken and other concerns of yeshivot
• Re: Rav Lichtensteins article on Centrist Judaism
• Re: Re[2]: Rabenu Tam
• Re: intrinsic value of mitzvos
• Histaklus BaNashim
• Limud vs. lemaaseh

The Yalkut Yosef (Chelek Daled, Siman 326 #4) permits use of the
dud shemesh (solar heater) for washing hands and for washing dishes *even*
if the temperature was above yad soledet. Interestingly he states that
"v'hamachmir al atzmo tavoh alav bracha" as per the Shmirat Shabbat
K'Hilchata Chelek Alef p. 18. The Yalkut Yosef seems to differentiate
between using the dud shemesh for washing dishes (OK) vs. for washing
hands.

Josh

On Thu, Jan 20, 2000 at 12:28:53PM -0500, C1A1Brown@aol.com wrote:
: >>>Tefillin before Sinai -  what would be written on the parshios?<<<

: Mai d'hava hava - l'mai nafka minah?

I have to disagree. Vihara'ayah, this conversation already shed much light
on eino metzuveh vi'oseh. Which is still lima'aseh. Other than that, you're
entering an aggadic question asking for a halachic impact.

:>>Re Pesach-  Is Pesach connected only to Yetziat Mitzrayim or is it an
:>>optimum time for Geula in general?

: B'nisan asidin ligael. 

I assume that was the point. The question was rhetorical.

: Rashi on shnei g'dayei izim by ya'akov - for korban pesach/chagigah. Yesh
: lachkor whether they kept maror as althogh korban pesach was eaten, there
: was no chovas hagavra.

Many such questions come up. The idea of an eino metzuveh observing all the
mitzvos implies some paradoxes. Jon already mentioned one: Milah requires
creating a mum, it can't be done voluntarily. (Yet that's not the answer the
Brisker Rav gives for why Avraham waited for a tzivui.) Asei docheh lav, where
the asei isn't nitztaveh. What about stam yeiynam? How can Avraham drink wine
he himself touched? Or does the list of halachah include dinim dirabbanan,
but not gezeiros dirabbanon? What about making a ta'anis chalom on Shabbos?
Or for that matter, they were b'nei Noach -- how could they even keep Shabbos
to begin with? Vechulu...

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 20-Jan-00: Chamishi, Beshalach
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 102a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

On Thu, Jan 20, 2000 at 02:42:41PM -0600, Micha Berger wrote:
: Many such questions come up. The idea of an eino metzuveh observing all the
: mitzvos implies some paradoxes....

I left out my point! Sorry. I therefore am inclined to conclude something
like RRW's position, that they kept all of the aggadita behind the halachah,
not each and every din.

Unfortunately, I this is an un-Orthodox (cap O intentional) position, as
the aggadita clearly states that they followed every last diRabbanan. And so
R' Chaim Vilozhiner describes it.

I could use help here.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 20-Jan-00: Chamishi, Beshalach
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 102a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

	> (...story about a Rosh Yeshiva changing his mind about requiring
separate seating...)	
	> My positing it as a
	> possible lashon hara was based on the Rosh Yeshiva "caving in"
against his
	> principles when confronted with his own "sordid past" as described
in the story.

	> Gershon

I think it reflects your own opinions on the question of mixed seating that
you consider that the Rosh Yeshiva "caved in" or that the past could in any
way be described as "sordid".  Neither of those sentiments is expressed in
the story as originally told.

The story could equally well be viewed in the following light.  "The Rosh
Yeshiva made a blanket  policy.  When approached and questioned about his
own personal decisions at his own wedding, the Rosh Yeshiva took a closer
look at the issue and realized there was ample room to be lenient in this
matter."

Ellen Krischer

> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:32:43 -0500
> From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
> Subject: Re: Hafleh vaFeleh - humor alert
 
<< If this is indeed a replicatable neis, why not put in both Rashi and
RT tefillin and see which gets unscathed?  Trial by bomb ordeal!?
<smile>>>

	Love it.  And if both come out unscathed,  we've done eilu v'eilu by
bomb ordeal!

Gershon

My quasi litvisher,r reading between teh lines and not taking things too 
literally hypothesis is:

They kept the SPRIT of every drabbonon...

Rich Wolpoe




______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Unfortunately, I this is an un-Orthodox (cap O intentional) position, as
the aggadita clearly states that they followed every last diRabbanan. And so 
R' Chaim Vilozhiner describes it.

I could use help here.

-mi

	>>Water runs from a tank through black pipes exposed to the sun. The
sun heats
> up the pipe, which heats up the water inside. The hot water returns to the
> tank.
> 
	>>When the user turns on the hot water, it takes hot water from the
tank. Cold
> water flows into the tank (and gets heated to above Yad Soledes Bo).
> 
	If this is the case then it sounds like the pipes are heating thge
water and not the sun. Therefore, it should be toldos chama and it should be
assur gezeirah atu toldos ohr.

In a message dated 1/20/00 4:12:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
micha@aishdas.org writes:

> Many such questions come up. The idea of an eino metzuveh observing all the
>  mitzvos implies some paradoxes. Jon already mentioned one: Milah requires
>  creating a mum, it can't be done voluntarily. (Yet that's not the answer 
the
>  Brisker Rav gives for why Avraham waited for a tzivui.) Asei docheh lav, 
> where
>  the asei isn't nitztaveh. What about stam yeiynam? How can Avraham drink 
> wine
>  he himself touched? Or does the list of halachah include dinim dirabbanan,
>  but not gezeiros dirabbanon? What about making a ta'anis chalom on Shabbos?
>  Or for that matter, they were b'nei Noach -- how could they even keep 
> Shabbos
>  to begin with? Vechulu...
>  
There is much written on all these questions, (Poroshas Drochim) etc.

Last night I happened to learn the Chida who discusses why Avrohom AO"H 
wasen't Mal earlier and brings the answer since he wanted to be a Mtuvah 
Voiseh, he asks since according to Tos. the Maaloh of Mtzuvoh Voiseh is 
because he has a Yetzer to contend with, this could not be an issue by AAO"H 
that had no Yetzer Hora, he answers that he got rid of his Yetzer Hora after 
the Bris.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

On Thu, Jan 20, 2000 at 03:53:46PM -0500, Gershon Dubin quoted RRW and wrote:
: << If this is indeed a replicatable neis, why not put in both Rashi and
: RT tefillin and see which gets unscathed?  Trial by bomb ordeal!?
: <smile>>>

: 	Love it.  And if both come out unscathed,  we've done eilu v'eilu by
: bomb ordeal!

Of course, aside from the gemara of eilu va'eilu in which we end up following
the bas kol, there's the famous gemara about the tanur shel achna'i and
lo bashamayim hi. See:
    http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol01/v01n041.html#03 (Chana Luntz)
    http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol02/v02n080.html#16 (Daniel Eidensohn)
    http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol02/v02n020.html#10 (Eliyahu Teitz)
    http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol02/v02n087.html#02 (Me, summarizing
	Encyc. Talmudit, "Bas Kol")
and the whole Bas Kol debate, look in
    http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/ix.html#B
for entries starting with the words "Bas Kol". 

(Speaking of which, did "lo bashamayim hi" apply to Avraham Avinu? After all,
he preceeded the rest of the pasuk, nasati la'asoso. It was still in shamayim
during his lifetime, no? <half-smile>)

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 20-Jan-00: Chamishi, Beshalach
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 102a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

this came off a Lubavich website

In temrs of making sholom with technogoly, Lubavich - imho - is a loosely a 
Chassidic parallel to  what Yu is to classic litisher yeshivos;.  IE the ablity 
to use modern forms as new casks for the old wine inside..

Rich Wolpoe

Subject: The Rebbe.org SNS EXCLUSIVE + Ban the Web? Not Lubavitch Jew


This magnificent site @ <A HREF="http://www.therebbe.org">www.TheRebbe.org</A>
 was produced by Lubavitch News Service and is sponsored by Rabbi Moshe Klein 
of Crown Heights, NY. Most of the Torah content on the site is courtesy of 
Vaad Hanochos Hatmimim.

(c) 5760 SNS.  All rights reserved.  No republication, redistribution or 
framing is permitted absent SNS prior consent.  SNS is not liable for errors 
or delays in content or actions taken based on this content.

Ban the Web? Not Lubavitch Jews 
by Mike Kamber Wired News
3:00 a.m. 19.Jan.2000 PST 

BROOKLYN, New York -- Despite a recent Internet ban by a group of prominent 
Israeli rabbis, Brooklyn's Lubavitch Hasidim have no plans to scale back 
their extensive presence on the World Wide Web, a presence that now includes 
700 Web sites in 52 countries. 

But the Lubavitch, the largest Jewish outreach group in the world, are 
concerned about a conflict with the ultra-orthodox rabbis and deny any 
contradiction between their decade-old Internet presence and the ban. 

"We're very sympathetic to [the rabbis'] concerns," says Zalmon Shmotkin, a 
Lubavitch spokesperson. 

These concerns revolve around the Internet acting as a conduit for 
pornography, particularly to Jewish children. But, unlike the ultra-orthodox, 
the Lubavitch emphasize the use of physical objects as tools to spread their 
word. 

"It's not the medium itself that is kosher or not kosher," Shmotkin explains. 
"It's how it is utilized." 

<snip>



 <A HREF="http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,33626-2,00.html">Ban the 
Web? Not Lubavitch Jews</A> 

On 20 Jan 00, at 22:32, BACKON@vms.huji.ac.il wrote:

> The Yalkut Yosef (Chelek Daled, Siman 326 #4) permits use of the
> dud shemesh (solar heater) for washing hands and for washing dishes *even*
> if the temperature was above yad soledet. Interestingly he states that
> "v'hamachmir al atzmo tavoh alav bracha" as per the Shmirat Shabbat
> K'Hilchata Chelek Alef p. 18. The Yalkut Yosef seems to differentiate
> between using the dud shemesh for washing dishes (OK) vs. for washing
> hands.

I don't understand this. If it's a problem of heating the water, why 
should it matter whether I then use the water to wash dishes or 
wash my hands? 

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

A poster takes issue WRT to a psak of Shmiras Shabbos Kehilchasa.  Am I
alone in noting the irony that this follows an extended discussion (which I
may join, iy"h) of what tefillin the avos wore and what impact on din,
halacha and minhag archeological findings might have on our conduct, that
being a case when we cannot ask those of centuries past what they were
thinking.  By contrast, I believe Rav Neubert is b"h alive and well. While
there is evidence that he will not necessarily respond to an inquiry (No'am,
Vol. 26 (?)), it behooves the questioner to write a letter to him and ask
him these questions.  I am told he is fluent in several  languages including
English so take your pick.  And let us know what he says!

Noach Witty

In message , Yzkd@aol.com writes
>>  Yitzchok Zirkind, replying to Eli Clark, writes:
>>  > If one want's to apply the Lvush that times changed, wouldn't one also 
>>  > conclude that with all the Pritzusdike advertisements that times have 
>>  > changed?  (Or can change only take place Lhatir Vloi Lesor?)
>>  
>>  Obviously, change can go both ways.  There is a difference, though,
>>  between the Lvush making that determination and R. Yitzchok Zirkind doing
>>  so.
>>  
>My original quote was from the Lubavitcher Rebbe Ztz"l, to me he was capable 
>of making such determination.
>

I have missed a number of Avodah postings (pressures of time and work),
so I may have missed this, but I am confused.  I always understood that
this Levush was the basis for the heter to, for example, look at a woman
when you are talking to her.

Now, sometimes when I have been walking in Meah Sharim, a man walking
the other way, and seeing I was coming, would turn and face the wall
until I went past.  Similarly, when I went into the tape library in
Geula, the man behind the counter looked at the ground the whole time,
and i had to put the money down on the counter and push it towards him,
and only after my hand had retreated would he take it.

Now this is a perfectly understandable interpretation of the issur of
histaklus.  

However, I have *never* encountered that with a Lubavitcher.  All the
Lubavitchers I know will look at you when you talk to them, and will
greet you when you go past.  And large numbers of Lubavitch rabbis
holding shul posts in England and Australia - all of whom would
unquestionably lose their jobs (or not be hired) if they would not say
hello to a woman or look at her when they were talking to her.

If they are not relying on the heter of the Levush, then what are they
relying on?

I guess what I don't understand is, according to those who claim the
issue of dancing at a wedding is histaklus, what makes women dancing on
one side of a room (with or without a mechitza and whether or not your
table is beside the women's dance area) worse than looking at her when
you are talking to her, and what makes it not required to turn away when
a woman approaches on the footpath (it is easily done, it only takes a
second until she passes, so it is not something that, like walking
behind someone going the same way as you are, which could prevent you
from getting to where you are going). 

>Kol Tuv
>
>Yitzchok Zirkind
> 
>

Shabbat Shalom

Chana

-- 
Chana/Heather Luntz

>From: "L. Nash" <lnash@idt.net>
>To: lnash@idt.net
>Subject: Refua Shlaima
>Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 12:48:14 -0500
>
>BS"D
>
>Please publicize the following message:
>
>In view of the seriousness of the moment, we request that all Anash,
>residents of Crown Heights gather together to recite Tehillim for the
>immediate recovery of the Rav of our Shuchna, HaRav Yehuda Kalman ben
>Rochel.  This will take place in 770 on Thursday evening 13 Shvat 5760
>commencing at 9:30 pm promptly.  We will also begin to write a sefer
>Torah in honor of our esteemed Bais Din, in conjunction with 13 years
>since their election “Ad Bias Goel Tzedek.”
>
>
>Vaad HaKohol of Crown Heights
>
>N'Shei U'Bnos Chabad
>

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Last night during a conversation with a friend, I recalled a famous like of
R. Hutner, that "A yeshiva is nischt eine wurst fabrique" that a yeshiva is
not a sasauge factory (i.e. it is not the goal of a yeshiva to produce
alumni lacking in individuality and creativity, but rather to enable each
and every student to find himself and develop that which makes him Jewishly
unique)  I wonder if today's yeshivot really adhere to that principle?  Do
they foster creativity and encourage a student to "think out of the box?"
Or are they interested in producing another product entirely?

--- Tobrr111@aol.com wrote:
> Some members of the list expressed interest in
> reading Rav Aharon 
> Lichtensteins recent article on Centrist Judaism
> that was posted on Yeshivat 
> Har Etzion's VBM. Having just read the article, I
> would just like to inform 
> everyone that (at least this first part) has really
> nothing new in it at all. 
> In fact, the article is based on a transcript by Rav
> Eli Clark and was 
> originally delivered at a conference of the
> Educators' Council of America in 
> November 1985. Furthermore, Rav Lichtinsteins
> article in "Judaism's 
> Encounters with other cultures" (put out by the
> Torah Umadda project of YU in 
> 1997) brings up all the same points and is far more
> comprehensive. In fact, I 
> counted at least 6 points in the recent article that
> Rav Lichtinstein 
> previously made almost word for word in this volume.
> So anyone who read this 
> volume will find nothing new, and for anyone who did
> not, I recommend this 
> volume which is far more comprehensive. (Of course
> the book cost $ while 
> reading from a website doesn't.) 

Well... eventhough the article was based on 15 year
old lectures, I found it fascinating reading and very
appropos to recent discussions on the list.  It's nice
to know that R. Lichtenstien was Mechaven to my
recently expressed chidushim on the subject :)

BTW at the end of the above post submitted by R.
Tobrr111, he has a .)  Does that mean that :) is
winking?

HM
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--- DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:

> SA
> scares me. It scared tens 
> of thousands of Jews straight out the religion (at
> least in its "kitzur" 
> abbreviation) a hundred years ago.

Would you care to amplify?

I was unaware of this historical phenomenon.

HM
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SNIP
CB:  B'nisan asidin ligael.
> >
GA>>We see that Avraham and Sarah kept the Matzot aspect of
> > Pesach,but what about the maror and the korban Pesach? <<<
> >
CB> > Rashi on shnei g'dayei izim by ya'akov - for korban
> > pesach/chagigah. Yesh lachkor whether they kept maror as
> > althogh korban pesach was eaten, there was no chovas hagavra.

GA: Thanks.

GA> > >>>Did they have knowledge of Yetziat Mitzrayim as a future
> > event or did they have da'as of the concepts on which yetzias
> > mitzrayim is based?<<<
> >
CB> > Avraham was told in bris bein abesarim his children will go
> > into galus and emerge b'rechush gadol.

GA: Yes, but this was a general prophecy about this galus, unless Avraham
Avinu was able to derive specifics - timing- not evident from the pshat.

>>>To really press the point,  did Avraham Avinu have a set
> > of Rashi and a set of Rabeinu Tam tefilin, and if not, why
> > not?   Points to ponder.<<<
> >

CB       I think it has to be borne in mind in
> > directing our limud and havanah.  If you tell me that knowing
> > whether Avraham wore Rashi or R"T tefillin will increase your
> > appreciation of middas hachessed for you to emulate, m'meila
> > I can hear this line of inquiry, but just for the sake of
> > speculation, I don't see it.

GA: I hear your point, and it's a good question.  Why should we care if it's
not directly shayach to us?  We're trying to reach an understand the nature
of tikun in mitzvot and how it relates to tikunim accomplished by women or
others who are not metzuveh for various reasons. Naturally we must
acknowledge the limits of our understanding,  but we're reaching for any
information available to us which can cast light on this inquiry.
I appreciate your input.    Mrs GA

--- Chana/Heather Luntz
<Chana/Heather@luntz.demon.co.uk> wrote:

 
> according to
> those who claim the
> issue of dancing at a wedding is histaklus, what
> makes women dancing on
> one side of a room (with or without a mechitza and
> whether or not your
> table is beside the women's dance area) worse than
> looking at her when
> you are talking to her

Histaklus is not just innocently looking at someone
while having a conversation or an incidental glance.
Histaklus implies looking at a woman with improper
thoughts (hirhurim). "Ogling" might be a better
translation of Histaklus than "looking". When women
dance even in non-erotic fashion it can stir up, in
some people gazing at them, some hihurim, which would
qualify that activity as Histaklus.  The debate here
has been about whether watching women dance at
weddings qualifies halachicly as Hastalkus or whether
it is qualifies as just innocent looking.

IMHO, I do not believe the type of dancing women do at
weddings qualifies as causing hirhurim in a society
that is bombarded daily with all kinds of pritzus in
virtually every area of human contact.  The
Tzniusdicly dressed women who dance wedding type
dances are about as innocent looking as could be in
today's world. Perhpaps in a society where one does
not come into contact with daily pritzus such dancing
would be so out of the ordinary that a person living
in that world would look at such dancing as causing
Hirhur. Perhaps this is the case in Bnei Brak of Meah
Shearim.  But not in the good ol USA unless you've
been living under a rock all of your life.

I'm not saying that we should change our attitudes or
try and "tear down those walls"(Mechitzos at
weddings). But I do personally have a problem with
saying that women dancing at weddings are a cause of
Hirhur.

BTW, as a videographer I watch women dance all the
time.  I was hired by R. Zucker, Rosh Kollel of The
CCK to videotape 3 of his daughters weddings and was
never told not to videotape the women. I also,
videotaped in Milwaukee, R. Michel Twersky's
daughter's wedding and taped the women dancing there,
too. I do almost exclusively Orthodox  weddings and
have videotaped women dancing at the most Chasidic and
Yeshivishe weddings, attended by many Gedolei Israel,
and it was never even hinted to me that I was
violating any issurim. 

HM
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To put it frankly, I envy people like RRW who somehow manage to 
compartmentalize their lomdishe and halokhishe approaches to the world. I 
wish it were that easy for me. Here's the problem I have.

In the traditional conception of limud, one studies the interrelation 
between various sources, but not how the sources themselves get that way. 
I.e., in most yeshives (even the far-left one I study in), you can work out 
the pshat, but not WHY, linguistically speaking, a given set of words was 
used in a particular circumstance. You can figure out WHICH brayse is the 
pivotal one, but not WHERE it came from, historically speaking, or WHY it's 
found at that particular point in the text.

However, the traditional conception doesn't satisfy me. I need (want) to 
know where the texts come from in a historical-critical way. Moreover, this 
helps me understand where halokhe comes from. But if I find out the SA is 
due to an ahistorical/static reading of the gemore, it's not enough to tell 
me Minhag avoyseynu beyodeynu. Why? Because I've always understood that the 
point of lomdus is not to keep it separate from halokhe lemayse, but to 
justify the latter via our own seykhel as per the Rambam. What a 
talmid-khokhem does in his halakhic analysis is to find the underlying 
principles that determine the halakhic state of affairs, and anchor them in 
the texts. Now if we understand the texts differently, how on earth are we 
not supposed to understand halokhe differently?

So, with all due respect, I don't think one can engage in 
historical-critical analysis of the text and keep halokhe completely static 
and influence-free. Something has to give somewhere. At the end of the first 
perek of Bove kame there's a discussion of whether limud or mayse is 
greater, and (if I remember correctly) the conclusion is: limud, since it 
leads to mayse. So a change in limud would lead to change in mayse, nisht 
emes?

Sholem Berger


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