Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 319

Tuesday, January 25 2000

• Paro's intentions
• MO vs RW
• Histaklus ba'anashim
• Histaklus banashim
• Re: Bet Yosef meat and lifnei iver
• Re: Bet Yosef meat and lifnei iver
• Bet Yosef Wine
• Charedi vs. MO
• Daughters in the Ladies Section (was Histaklus beNashim)
• Re: Bet Yosef Wine
• Re: Bet Yosef meat and lifnei iver
• Re: Bet Yosef meat and lifnei iver
• WHY HAS MY CHILD LEFT JUDAISM?
• Re: Histaklus BaNashim

Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 11:09:49 +0200
From: Moshe and davida Nugiel <friars@aquanet.co.il>
Subject: Pharo's Intentions

<<The scripture seems to support the latter view in the pasuk at the
beginning of B'shlach [14:5], "and Pharo and his servants changed their
minds...>>
	
	OTOH, the expression "kiv varach ha'am" indicates (I saw a parasha sheet
based partly on this diyuk) that they,  unexpectedly, "ran away"

Gershon

Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 13:39:00 -0500
From: "Clark, Eli" <clarke@HUGHESHUBBARD.COM>
Subject: MO vs RW

<<But, as I said, we err if we focus too much on the writings of this or
that thinker.  The simple reality -- in my experience -- is that the MO
community respects people who work for a living and the RW community
does not.>>

	And the MO community does not respect people who learn,  if we must make
broad sweeping generalizations.

Gershon

Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 14:35:17 +0200
From: "Berger" <rachelbe@netvision.net.il>
Subject: Histaklus B'nashim

<<It is my understanding that one suggestion in Gemara Berachos 48b
clearly indicates that Hazal believed that women find men attaractive and
desire to gaze at them. In trying to explain why the young women at the
well (Shmuel I:9) engaged in lengthy conversation with Shaul (who was
just asking for directions), the Gemara suggests "Kdei Lehistakel Byofyo
shel Shaul".>>

	This is not the issue;  it is the intent of the "gazing" which is being
discussed.

Gershon

Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:15:48 +0000
From: Chana/Heather Luntz <Chana/Heather@luntz.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Histaklus BaNashim

<<I know we are still newly weds, and it shows, but I assumed that if the
seating were mixed you had a 100% success rate, assuming you were
married, in that the person you most enjoyed talking to was there to
talk to.>>

	ah,  newlyweds.  Do you sit at the (mixed) table and talk only to your
husband?  

	Or do you endure the men-type conversation as the men endure the
women-type conversation?  

	Or do you wind up speaking to the women anyway?  Please don't tell me
you discuss MB vs A"HSH with the men!  I know that when I go to a mixed
affair it is rare that there is extended cross-gender conversation at the
table.  (Maybe it's my age/time married?)

<<(NB there is a halacha that a man is forbidden to think of another
woman when he s with his wife, but it would seem to suggest from this
gemorra that
the reverse would not be true).>>

	Machshava interpretations of that halacha would indicate otherwise.

<<I have already written to R'Maryles to apologise to him offline about
the way this came out.  To explain, R'Maryles and I have a friendly
machlokos about quoting sources on this list.  He believe that,
especially as it is a machshava list, to go and look up sources takes
away from the spontenaity, which is one of the things he values here,
while for me, one of the things that I most value about this list is
that it forces me to go and look things up>>

	I have had precisely the same exchange with him.

Gershon

Micha Berger wrote:


> 
> Say I were to have a Sepharadi family over for a meal. Further assume that
> while I have no doubt that the family is shomrei Torah and Mitzvos, I have
> reason to believe that not all of them are makpid on Bet Yosef meat.
> 
> Two questions:
> 
> 1- Is there halachic grounds for a Sepharadi to be meikil WRT to bet yosef
>    meat?



No. But there is room to question what qualifies as Bet Yosef. Yalkut
Yosef, KSA Siman 29,46 - Hilchot Terefot, halacha 8:

To summarize, he says that the minhag of the sefaradim and benei edot
hamizrah is to not eat meat from an animal that has a 'sirca' (I like to
translate it as 'sarcoma'), and to eat only that labelled 'halak'. He
continues by bringing all sorts of strong language 'zarich lizaher me'od
bedavar zeh' that one may come to has veshalom behashash issur terefah,
according to Maran and da'at gedolei haposkim rishonim ve'aharonim,
v'ein lehakel. And that Rabbanim should speak to their congregations not
to eat any meat not labelled glatt or halak, we sefaradim, and (he says)
many of our ashkenazi bretheren are careful in this.

So according to him, it appears that glatt is OK.

But then I pick up 'HaHagadah HaMeduyeket Ish Mazliah', and turn to the
section titled "Basar Lehag", halacha 2:

According to the da'at of Maran haShulhan Aruch that we accepted upon
ourselves, we are careful to eat meat only from animals whose lungs are
clean from sarcot, but if they have sarcot, even if they can be crushed
with the touch of a hand, "harei zu terefah", and therefore there is
reason for sefaradim to be careful to buy only meat that is "Halak Bet
Yosef", and not "Kosher" or "Halak Meat".

Strong language, but lema'aseh, he's not the posek hador for most of us,
and it appears from he who is the posek hador that there is room to say
that "Glatt" is OK.




>    grew up eating "glatt", or maybe, like many families do WRT eiruv, the
>    husband just refuses to impose his chumros on others -- even his wife.


As was suggested to me and countless others at Porat Yosef by R'
Ben-Zion. Excellent advice, I might add.



> 2- If not, would I have to worry about lifnei iver and not serve them my meat?


I'm not sure. Never thought of it that way before.


---sam

----- Original Message -----
From: <sambo@charm.net>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2000 10:47 PM
Subject: Re: Bet Yosef meat and lifnei iver


> No. But there is room to question what qualifies as Bet Yosef. Yalkut
> Yosef, KSA Siman 29,46 - Hilchot Terefot, halacha 8:
>
> To summarize, he says that the minhag of the sefaradim and benei edot
> hamizrah is to not eat meat from an animal that has a 'sirca' (I like to
> translate it as 'sarcoma'), and to eat only that labelled 'halak'. He
> continues by bringing all sorts of strong language 'zarich lizaher me'od
> bedavar zeh' that one may come to has veshalom behashash issur terefah,
> according to Maran and da'at gedolei haposkim rishonim ve'aharonim,
> v'ein lehakel. And that Rabbanim should speak to their congregations not
> to eat any meat not labelled glatt or halak, we sefaradim, and (he says)
> many of our ashkenazi bretheren are careful in this.
>
> So according to him, it appears that glatt is OK.
>

But meat labelled glatt in Chu"l is not BY glatt, it is "shochet" glatt (the
lungs may have what shochtim deem "reerim" as opposed to "sirchos", which,
if I understand correctly, the BY still views as "sirchos"), except the
Oscherwitz brand under R' Moshe Soloveitchik, that is, I believe, always BY
glatt.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

I recently obtained a bottle of wine from Efrat Vineyards, under the
brand name "Jerusalem". Above the hechsher from the Eida Hacharedis, it
says "Kasher af l'nohagim k'shitas haBeis Yosef". Below the hechsher, it
is marked as Mevushal.

Obviously, they are implying that other wines do not satisfy the Beis
Yosef's shitos in some way, either in their definition of Mevushal, or
perhaps in the observance level of the vintners, or perhaps in one or
another of the Mitzvos Hatluyos Baaretz. Does anyone know exactly which
machlokes the notice is referring to?

Akiva Miller

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:36:25 -0500
> From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
> Subject: Re[2]: Charedi vs. MO (was Re: How is Rav Soleveitchik ztzl 
> 
> Again it is useful to distinguish between an ideology and how it is implemented 
> by its adherents.
> 
> The fact that many MO's are not meticulous with observing certain dinim is not 
> necesarily a function of the MO ideology.

Ain hachi nami. One of the problems with trying to fit people into 
neat little categories is that their actions cannot always (and 
maybe cannot usually) be attributed to a consistent philosophy 
that has been thought out and molded. This is why brilliantly 
consistent presentations like REC's last night tend to fall apart 
when applied to anyone in amcha other than the academic elite.

> <Please don't consider this a flame> Hypothetically, if one were to say RW'ers 
> don't adhere to paying taxes as meticulously as MO's - shoule we attirbute this 
> to human frailty or to ideology?

A stereotype that doesn't fit in Israel where aggressive tax 
avoidance is a national pastime.... But for the most part I think it 
can attributed to human frailty, even though it is sometimes 
couched in ideology.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:38:52 -0500
> From: sambo@charm.net
> Subject: Re: Histaklus BaNashim
> 
> Chana/Heather Luntz wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > I'm not bringing halachic sources for a change (although I think they
> > support me - everything i have seen says 3 ideally, and 8-9 at worst),
> > but my view is never - or at least, she shouldn't sit with her father
> > once she is of an age to understand that boys go one place and girls sit
> > elsewhere.
> 
> 
> My daughter will be four just after Purim. She understands seperate
> seating (in fact, she insists on it even when we would rather not), but
> there are still times in shul when she wants to come an sit with me,
> usually for about five minutes while the Rav is speaking. Then she can't
> stand the fact that all her friends are on the other side, and back she
> goes.
> 
> I guess what I'm trying to illustrate is that once they understand, the
> problem should take care of itself. The problem, I suppose, is in
> getting them to understand.

I think that depends on when you take your daughter to shul. If you 
only take her to shul on Shabbos morning when there are lots of 
people, then she will often have many examples to follow. But I find 
that it is easier on the kids if I start them going to shul at times 
when davening is shorter, e.g. Friday night (and in the States my 
real starter was Sunday Mincha, but that is not an option here). 
That can lead to a practical problem - if she is the only one there, 
who will show her the place? 

> > situation.  Up to a certain age she can sit with her Daddy, and then,
> > suddenly she can't, 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure I understand why she'd want to sit in the mens' section.
> When my daughter sits with me, all she gets is me next to her. We don't
> talk, she knows better. She can't read yet, and we're too fast for her
> to get the words. So she comes over for a kiss on the head or a smile,
> but there's no point in staying.

But are you teaching her how to daven, or are you teaching her 
how to sit still in shul? If she can't read yet, then obviously you are 
teaching her how to sit still in shul, and that's an important lesson. 
But what will happen when she can read and you want to teach her 
how to daven? I don't know if you have older children, but from my 
experience, most schools do a woefully inadequate job of teaching 
our children what is said in davening outside of school. I have seen 
my SONS' friends who in 5th and 6th grade did not have a clue 
where the tzibur was in the siddur on Shabbos. I don't think the 
girls are taught more than the boys in this area, but at least the 
boys have someone in shul to help them out. The girls may not 
(especially if your wife is home with younger children who would 
disturb in shul), and if you don't teach her how to follow in the 
siddur, she will not learn it until much, much later.

> > Of course, this also means you will need to ensure the women's places a
> > more attractive place for a girl to want to be, if you want your
> > daughters to continue to come, 
> 
> 
> 
> I want my wife to continue to come. 

You'd better discuss that with her then. But as you have more and 
more children in the house, it becomes more and more difficult for 
a wife to get to shul, at least until you reach the point that you have 
an older child who can help your wife out. We reached that point 
when our eldest was about 12-13.

But tableclothes and flowers aren't
> what she comes to shul for. They're quite nice, but not a real reason to
> come back.

I don't think Chana had tablecloths and flowers in mind. I think what 
Chana had in mind is the "minhag" of male latecomers using the 
women's section to hide, the practice in many shuls of using the 
women's section as an extra minyan room, the practice in many 
shuls of the women's section being unavailable to women most of 
the time. If you bring your daughter to shul, and there is another 
minyan going in the ladies section, or she cannot hear from the 
ladies section, or the ladies section abuts two different minyan 
rooms, and once the second minyan starts she can no longer hear 
the first one, she is not going to want to sit there once she is old 
enough to have to sit there and to understand what is happening.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

BY wines must be at least 50% wine. Ashkenazim consider wine to be wine even
if diluted up to a sixth. Much of the Israeli Badatz wine, and some Rashi
wines here, perhaps others as well, are "wine product" - not wine by
Sephardic standards, but Borei Pri Ha'Gafen by Ashkenazic ones.

Don't forget BY bread!

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Kenneth G Miller <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2000 10:55 PM
Subject: Bet Yosef Wine


> I recently obtained a bottle of wine from Efrat Vineyards, under the
> brand name "Jerusalem". Above the hechsher from the Eida Hacharedis, it
> says "Kasher af l'nohagim k'shitas haBeis Yosef". Below the hechsher, it
> is marked as Mevushal.
>
> Obviously, they are implying that other wines do not satisfy the Beis
> Yosef's shitos in some way, either in their definition of Mevushal, or
> perhaps in the observance level of the vintners, or perhaps in one or
> another of the Mitzvos Hatluyos Baaretz. Does anyone know exactly which
> machlokes the notice is referring to?
>
> Akiva Miller
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
> Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
> Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>

First of all, you can always serve chicken or fish.

----- Original Message -----
> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:27:38 -0600
> From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
> Subject: Bet Yosef meat and lifnei iver
>
> Say I were to have a Sepharadi family over for a meal. Further
assume that
> while I have no doubt that the family is shomrei Torah and Mitzvos,
I have
> reason to believe that not all of them are makpid on Bet Yosef meat.
>
> Two questions:
>
> 1- Is there halachic grounds for a Sepharadi to be meikil WRT to bet
yosef
>    meat? What if we're talking about an Ashkenazit who married a
Sepharadi
>    and their children? (Maybe the issur feels less "real" to someone
who
>    grew up eating "glatt", or maybe, like many families do WRT
eiruv, the
>    husband just refuses to impose his chumros on others -- even his
wife.
>    Except that here is a different kind of chumrah, as it has the
weight
>    of p'sak.)

In continuation of the "discussion" on VeHu Yimshol Ba (and as a
Litvak married to a Sephardi <g>) the wife accepts all her husband's
minhagim, though if he takes on a humra that is not part of the
community humrot, I know of Sephardi women who got a heter not to do
so herself.

The issue of Beit Yosef meat is a very hot topic in Israel.  Not every
Sephardi Kehila accepts Rav Ovadya's ruling in this regard.
Unfortunately, most of the discussion I've heard has not yet been
published, but I'll try to ask for some rulings in the near future.

> 2- If not, would I have to worry about lifnei iver and not serve
them my meat?

In Israel, at least in my area, I have found that buying Beit Yosef
(specifically Rav Machpud's hechsher) is cheaper financially and
better health wise (no additives of any kind, incl. water!) so the
issue has a halachik side and a financial side.  Practically speaking,
at large events with family I always make sure there is a chicken dish
so that someome who has a chumra of using only a specific hechsher (In
Israel there are many different Hechsherim, and not everyone eats
everyone elses, and I have family from nearly every part of the
spectrum) will have what to eat.

> - -mi

Shoshana L. Boublil

The Yabia Omer 5:3 discusses this issue and permits it b'di'avad on the
sfek sfeika (e.g the meat being served may have come from an animal where
there was no loose lung tissue; and b: the meat may have been glatt kosher
(Rema)

Josh

WHY HAS MY CHILD LEFT JUDAISM?
Based on a case study

PROF. SUSAN HANDELMAN
(University of Maryland, USA)
Discusses the phenomenon of young men and women from
modern-Orthodox,
Zionist homes who have left traditional Judaism
8.00 pm, Motzaei Shabbat, 29 January 2000
donation: 10 nis/5 nis students/pensioners
AT:

YAKAR'S CENTER FOR SOCIAL CONCERN
Rechov HaLamed Heh 10, Jerusalem
Tel: 02 561 2310  Fax: 02 563 2917
Web: www.yakar.org       email: info@yakar.org
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

--- Carl and Adina Sherer <sherer@actcom.co.il> wrote:
But I don't need to go to a wedding to talk
> to my wife, and if 
> I am talking to my wife the entire time it is
> questionable whether I 
> am performing the mitzva of being mesameach chosson
> v'kallah 

The post below first appeared on MJ it was distributed
by a talmid of R. Rakkefet-Rothkoff based on a sicha
he gave to his talmidim in at Gruss.  Eventhough it is
lengthy it addresses the very issue we are talking
about here, and is very worthy reading.

HM

     Gentlemen, I want to come back to something I
spoke about rather quickly
after class a few weeks ago. Jack put it into the
internet and a lot of
people have commented on it. I want to clarify what I
said.
I want to point out that one thing in the internet was
wrong, I don't know
how it happened, someone misunderstood me or maybe my
tongue slipped. The
story of the Chafetz Chaim and the person coming to
him for Shabbos who
asked that there be separate seating was not the
Gerrer Rebbe. It was
Maharam Lublin, Rav Meir Shapiro, the Lubliner Rav. It
is an absolute true
story that before he comes to Radin, he tells the
Chafetz Chaim I am going
to be in Radin for Shabbos, I would like to be at your
table. The Chafetz
Chaim says, "with pleasure." The Maharam Shapiro,
[also known as] the
Maharam Lublin was a gaon adir beyisrael, the founder
of Chachmai Lublin
Yeshivah. He knew that the Chafetz Chaim was a Litvak,
i.e., men and women
eat together. Maharam Shapiro asks the Chafetz Chaim
to separate, that is,
to put his wife at a different table. The Chafetz
Chaim answers that if
that is the case you can't be my guest. It is an
absolutely true story.
     Now I want to explain myself and explain myself
well. I have to tell you
in advance, some people said that if you don't have a
mechitzah at a
wedding, men look at other women, speak with other
women, get involved in
love triangles, ultimately divorce. If this is true
then my words have
absolutely no relevancy whatsoever. They are batail,
mevutal, ke'afra
de'ara [nullified as the dust of the earth]. At every
wedding there should
be not only mechitzot but mad dogs which can read
minds and if any man who
is not allowed to [look at women] (I am not saying
single fellows. A
single fellow has a right to look at a girl, mitzad
the halakhah [from a
halakhic point of view]); but if any man looks at
another woman
licentiously the dogs should eat him up on the spot.
[If this is the
reality] then I have my own problems. I will go home
and I will go back
and sit down with my Rebbe [Rav Soloveitchik], with
Rav Moshe Feinstein,
with Rav Yaakov Kamenitsky, and live in the 1950s as I
lived, baruch
Hashem, and go back to a normal world. My words have
no relevancy if that
critique is correct.
     What I am saying is something entirely different.
We have a problem today,
in my opinion, in the Torah world, whether we are
modern orthodox or
right-wing orthodox. Our sexual standards have broken
down. Let me make
something clear to you. If something is an aberration
[Rabbi Rakeffet will
soon explain what this something is.] I would not be
speaking about this.
I would not eat my heart out. I gave lectures in
Midreshet [Moriah] that
everyone should hear on [what should be our] attitude
towards sex. I would
not eat my heart out if it was an aberration.
      There are always going to be menuvalim [people
living on a degrading moral
level]. I am frankly offended by the Torah when we
come to the Ten
Commandments where it says "lo tirtzach". I have never
even thought of
murdering someone in my life. "lo tignov". When is the
last time I robbed?
"lo tinaf". I have been married on to 40 years, I have
never even thought,
I don't even want to say the word in English, of
adultery. Come on. I am
offended by the Torah. But what can I do? I have lived
long enough to know
that there are menuvalim. There are always going to be
menuvalim. There
are going to be murderers with beards and payos and
big yarmulkes or
people who look like me [who] are going to be
murderers. There are going
to be thieves and there are going to be adulterers. So
the Torah has to
tell us [how to deal with them].
     [As to] if it is an aberration [or not, consider
the following]. You have
to think in halakhic terms. There is miyut hanikar
[recognizable minority]
and miyut she'aino nikar [a not noticeable minority].
An aberration means
a miyut she'aino nikar. Unfortunately today it is a
miyut hanikar [and we
cannot ignore it].
     We in the modern orthodox world have our
problems. Single girls going to
mikvah. I am not going to talk about that now [nor the
other problems in
the modern orthodox world]. I also feel that the
charaidi world [has
problems], and to me it is obvious [what is happening
in that world]. I
live part of the year in America. I know what is going
on. I know what is
going on here [in Eretz Yisrael], and I am not going
to illustrate it out
of "kvod Elokim hastair davar..." (Mishlai 25,2) ["It
is the glory of G-d
to conceal a matter..." What Rabbi Rakeffet is saying
is that out of
respect to Hashem, certain things should be hidden and
not spoken about.]
I don't have to tell you all that I know. I could give
you names, by the
way, of people and single girls and what not. Forget
it. The charaidi
world has a different problem and if Chaim
Soloveitchik is correct [in his
article titled] "Rupture and Reconstruction", within
15 years, their
problems will be our problems.
     I articulate this problem very simply. They are
developing an Ada veTzilah
mentality [Beraishit 4, 19 and Yerushalmi Yevamot ch.
6 halakhah 5).
Peshuto kemashma'o [to be taken literally]. On one
hand they are very
frum, very pious. They do what they are taught with a
wife who grew up
under the same concepts. [However, there] is a miyut
hanikar, some who can
afford it. [They] have mistresses, houses of ill
repute, affairs, etc. and
it is frightening. The statistics are there. Anyone
who goes to New York
can see with his own eyes. Rabbi Cooperman once came
back from a trip to
America in the 1970s and he was shaking, because a
former student of his,
a yoraid [resident of Israel who leaves for the
diaspora], who was a taxi
driver in New York and who had been a student when he
[,Rabbi Cooperman,]
taught in "Boys Town" [a school in Yerushalayim]. This
student gave him a
tour of New York and took him to the Port Authority
area at night and he
came back shaking. He told me [about] all the black
[not Afro-Americans
but rather those wearing black clothing] he saw in
that area. He couldn't
believe his eyes. That's America. That's the Western
world. It grows into
your bones. Sex is on every street corner.
     What bothers me is there is a falshe frumkeit
here. Rav Yerucham Gorelick
used to use that word. I have to tell you, Rav
Yerucham was so insightful
that I shiver and I shake today. [For example,] in my
days in Y.U. there
was [only] one boy who wore his tzitzit out. One boy!
[Years later] I
taught his daughter. I taught his son. Every time he
walked into class
with his tzitzit out, Rav Yerucham went crazy. I
cannot repeat what he
said to him in public. "Falshe frumkeit, ayich mit
ayer falshe frumkeit"
[false religiosity, you with your false religiosity]
Rav Yerucham was
going off the wall. f.f., falshe frumkeit! I don't
know how Rav Yerucham
called the shot. That boy, [now a] man, became a
chazan in one of the
biggest Conservative shuls in the United States. If I
ever meet
him......... I don't like falshe frumkeit.
     Now, we live in a world where men and women
intermingle. Therefore, the
halakhah is as follows. The Rambam Hilkhot Ishut Perek
24 Halakhah 12 uses
a word in terms of tzniyut. He writes that women have
to go out of their
house with a "radid". That is his term. What is a
"radid"? There is only
one explanation for radid. It is a veil. Show me one
woman walking around
in Meah Shearim today who is not an Arab who has a
veil on her face. So
you see, without going into great lamdus [learning],
and I spoke at great
length with Rav Aharon Lichtenstein, [and] he spoke
with the Rav about
this, there is a certain subjectivity with those
aspects of tzniyut that
are not de'oraita [Torah law].

When the Rema paskens that you can't say "shehasimcha
beme'ono" when men
and women are sitting together, the Maharam Yafa
doesn't disagree. Someone
[responding via e-mail] said we don't pasken like the
Maharam Yafa. It is
nothing to do with the way we pasken. He [Maharam
Yafa] doesn't disagree
with the Rema. All he says is, a hundred years later
[i.e. 100 years after
the Rema], that we today are used to men and women
sitting together.
Therefore we have no problem saying "shehasimchah
beme'ono".
     We should educate our men and women in the
charaidi and in the modern
orthodox world, [to] develop a wonderful relationship
with each other.
Marriage is a lot more than just a physical or an
earthly union to enable
you to discharge the obligations of "pru urevu" [be
fruitful and multiply]
and "onah" [relations]. Marriage is something else,
way beyond that. And I
don't think it was ever said better than the gemara in
Gittin 90b, quoting
Malachi 2, verses 13 and 14. The gemara says something
overwhelming. It is
[found at] the very end of Gittin:
     "Kol hamigaraish ishto rishonah, afilu mizbeach
morid alav demaot,
shene'emar, vezot shainit ta'asu kesot dimah et
mizbeach Hashem bechi
ve'anaka maiayin od penot el haminchah velakachat
ratzon miyadchem"
     ["If a man divorces his first wife, even the
altar sheds tears, as it
says, "and this further ye do, ye cover the altar of
Hashem with tears,
with weeping and with sighing, insomuch that he
regardeth not the offering
any more, neither receiveth it with good will at your
hand." (Soncino)]
     I refuse to take any of your offerings! The
mizbeach is crying! And the
prophet [continues]:
     "ve'amartem al mah?, al ki Hashem hai'id baincha
uvain aishet neurecha
asher atah bagadetah bah, vehi chavairtecha ve'aishet
britecha."
     ["Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because Hashem hath been
witness between thee and
the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt
treacherously, though
she is thy companion and the wife of thy covenant."]
[The English
translations are from Soncino.]
    When you divorce your wife, you are a traitor
[against] the wife of one's
youth. Look at the words, "chavairtecha ve'aishet
britecha." A person
should feel towards his wife, and vice versa, [that
she is] his best
friend. [She is] his confidant. [She] is his soulmate.
[She] is a lot more
than just his sexual partner or the mother of his
children. To me,
wherever I go I always want my wife at my side. I have
seen gedolai
Yisrael. I grew up watching the Rav. I saw Rav Moshe.
I saw Rav Yaakov. I
saw the way they related to their wives. It was a
living mussar saifer
[ethics book]. It was truly chavairtecha ve'aishet
britecha.
      I come to weddings. I don't have that much time
to go out at night. You
saw how I was introduced [referring to the previous
Sunday's public
lecture]. Mike Strick once again [refers to my time
spent in] Russia.
Baruch Hashem, I have lived many, many different
lives. Sometimes I am
overwhelmed by how many different lives I have lived.
I have never yet
walked into the classroom unprepared and I never
published anything that
was found faulty. [Rabbi Rakeffet's commitment to the
quality and accuracy
of his teaching and to his published work requires a
tremendous commitment
of time.] You make a mistake, here, there. Some other
document comes up
[requiring a revision to what was published]. I
published thousands of
pages. When you publish you go before am veaidah
[nation and community]. I
am not ashamed to tell you that there has never been a
major correction in
my works.
     I am always busy. People call me and say, "Rebbi
are you busy?" I say, "If
I wouldn't be busy, would I be your Rebbi?", but
please you called, you
have a sheailah [question], go ahead.
     I try my best to go out with my wife once a week.
It doesn't always work
out that way. When I go to a wedding I go to mesameach
chatan vekallah
[cause the groom and bride to rejoice]. But there is a
meal. You are
sitting. You're talking. The greatest joy is to have
my wife next to me.
She is my chavairah. She is my aishet briti. She is a
lot more than just
my physical partner or the mother of my children and
grandchildren. She is
my confidant. She is smarter than me. She supplements
me, complements me.
Sometimes helps me paskin sheailot [make halakhic
decisions]. I always
appreciate when someone asks me a question [while] my
wife is listening.
Her input to me is sacred.
     Tzniyut is tzniyut. I reiterate, if people
normally eat separate Friday
night, then I understand [that] when they make a
wedding they are going to
have separate seating. They live in the Rema's
framework, not the Levush's
framework. Notice my words. I understand it [this type
of behaviour]. I
saw [this] with my own eyes at the engagement party
for the son of a close
friend. My friend's son-in-law is a Gerrer chasid. I
saw this young man
trembling because he couldn't enter a room where there
were women. I saw
with my own eyes. I was overwhelmed. I was shocked,
but I have to respect
it. He has a right, pluralism. I spoke about it Sunday
night.
     [One of Rabbi Rakeffet's comments Sunday night
was that once we say
"na'aseh venishma", pluralism is our right. We can be
chassidim,
mitnagdim, Lakewood, Y.U., Washington Heights,
sephardim, ashkenazim,
taimanim, etc., etc., etc., but this is only after
na'aseh venishma.]
      I [was] invited to the Gerrer Rebbe's nephew's
shevah berachos. I [went]
knowing [there] was going to be separate seating.
However, when I am
invited to Chaim Yankel's [child's] wedding, the same
Chaim Yankel who
sits mixed Friday night, goes to restaurants with his
wife, goes here and
there with his wife, with his girlfriends, etc.,
suddenly at his wedding, the falshe frumkeit. It is
frightening to me.
     [Rabbi Rakeffet is not saying that every man who
has separate seating at his simchahs also has a
mistress and girlfriends. He is insisting on
consistency in the practice of separate seating. He is
also saying that there is a recognizable minority that
does have mistresses, etc., and that to prevent
further deterioration among our people we need to try
and restore the way husbands and wives relate to each
other to emulate what Rabbi Rakeffet saw among the
Torah giants of his youth.]
     In the charaidi world there is a real problem
today. As to the Poppover Rebbe, what happened there,
I can't even mouth it, I don't want to tell you, but
this is not an aberration. It is a miyut hanikar. The
pilagshim [concubines] didn't come out of the modern
orthodox world. The pilagshim came out of a certain
right-wing world, whatever truth there is to it. [see
The Washington Post, June 2, 1996] But you cannot deny
that in Lakewood there is guy living with a pilegesh,
bifnai am veaidah [before the nation and the
community]. He has two apartments, two "wives", two
sets of children. This is already not an aberration.
This is frightful. We have developed an Adah veTzilah
mentality.
     These people who had pilagshim were interviewed.
Hashem yerachem. [May Hashem have mercy.] These are
Bais Yaakov girls speaking. It is mind boggling. It is
mamash [literally] Adah ve Tzilah, except it is a
Jewish girl. For many others it is a Puerto Rican.
(New York is New York.) By the way, vee
zekristzelzach, azoy yiddelsach [as the Christian acts
so does the Jew]. We have our problems here too [in
Israel], much less percentage-wise, but the problems
are in place, because we are also part of the Western
world here.
     Now, what gives me the right to speak like this?
First of all, I have to tell you I was just told, that
Rabbi Frand [dealt with this issue on a tape]. I
refused to listen to the tape [until after I gave my
response today]. [I was told about this tape by]
someone who picked this up [on the internet]. I can't
believe what goes on. Put something in the computer
and every one in the world suddenly is responding as
if he is in the classroom. [It was] one of my students
[who] picked it up on the internet. He called me the
other day, "Rabbi Frand says exactly what you said,
exactly. He says that if they eat separately Friday
night....". I couldn't believe my ears. Baruch
shekivanti [a Rabbinic aphorism used when one comes up
with, independently, an insight that someone of
greater stature also developed earlier]. I guess I
belong in Ner Yisrael. When I heard Rabbi Frand
says..... I have to get an honorary semichah from Ner
Yisrael.  I am going to do you one better. I couldn't
believe it when Jack told me that he didn't know about
[the following]. Then it dawned upon me. This all
happened before you Rabbis were even born. I think I
am 22 yet! You guys are 25, 26. This happened before
you were born.
     When I came on aliyah, the State of Israel was
shaking. You don't even have to quote Rabbi Frand.
That he agrees with Rabbi Rakeffet, [compared to the
following it is almost] unimportant. [But] when the
Steipler agrees with Rabbi Rakeffet and the Steipler
thinks like Rabbi Rakeffet, wow.
     May I quote the Rav to you. He used to say that
his elter zayde [great grandfather], Rav Yosaif Ber
used to say [that] when he thinks out a certain
chiddush and he sees others [also] say it, he is very
proud, because he knows he is going on the main
highway.
     This is the famous letter. [At this point Rabbi
Rakeffet showed the letter to the class.] When I came
on aliyah this letter was circulating by hand in all
the yeshivot in Israel. When anyone got married they
gave you a copy. If anyone wants a copy, it is right
in front of you. Its $10,000 a copy. [This is Rabbi
Rakeffet's humorous but insightful way of emphasizing
to his students the value of a shiur on which he
worked very hard or the value of a great chiddush. We
should value Torah properly, and, nowadays money is
the measure we use for value.] Be my guest. Add it to
the I.O.U. list. [Rabbi Rakeffet maintains an
imaginary I.O.U. list of the tens of thousands of
dollars that his students owe him for his special
chidushim. Many of his students who eventually become
prosperous actually repay their debts to him by their
support of Shvut Ami and of the International
Coalition for Missing Israeli Soldiers. Rabbi Rakeffet
devotes much of his invaluable time to these two
organizations.]
     I think you are getting a bargain at $10,000.
Believe me. I am in a benevolent mood this morning, so
I set a low price. If anyone wants to make copies, the
office should make [their photocopier] available to
you. I don't think you can enter the Rabbinate without
[this letter]. It is an amazing letter.
     [Rabbi Rakeffet told me that the heart of the
letter can be found at the end of the book titled
"Zivug Min Hashamayim" by Rabbi Nathan Drazin, 2nd
edition, published in 1975. The Steipler originally
wanted his letter to circulate hand to hand.]
     [The event that caused the Steipler to write the
letter] happened in Bnai Brak. I imagine there had to
be Americans involved. Whenever there is extremism you
have to find Americans involved; but I may be wrong.
     It was a group of people in Chazon Ish [Yeshivah]
in Bnai Brak. The Steipler was the last surviving
brother-in-law of the Chazon Ish. [The Steipler's name
was] Rav Yaakov Yisrael Kanyevsky. 
By the way, [the Steipler] served in the Russian army.
[Did] you know that? The [Steipler] rav was a gadol,
gadol, shebigdolim. He was drafted into the Russian
army and he served. He was in shiryon [armour]. He was
deaf. They say the Steipler was deaf [and] that is why
he could devote all his life to learning. No one could
bother him. He was deaf, they say, from the guns. One
went off right near him or a shell landed near him and
he lost a good deal of his hearing. He was the gadol
hador when I came on aliyah.
     This chug [group] got involved..., I don't even
want to mouth the language here. It is hard for me to
say it. They took an attitude towards sex [,namely,
that] we are going to be machmir like the gemara in
Ketuvot, daf 48a, the famous gemara, "Haomer i efshi
ela ani bebigdi vehi bebigdah" [I will not unless she
wears her clothes and I mine (Soncino)]. The Ramban
quotes the gemara in parshat mishpatim on the verse:
she'airah, kesutah ve'onatah lo yigra (Shemot 21, 10).
[This group in Bnai Brak said,] "We want the minimum
enjoyment out of sex, no enjoyment out of sex. We are
just doing it leshaim mitzvah." The women came crying
to the Steipler and the Steipler writes a letter
[expressing his views of], if I can summarize with two
words, falshe frumkeit, a bunch of phonies.
     Every woman knows about sex today. We live in a
different world. What went on in the time of chazal is
not applicable today. You're being machmir and your
wives are crying. You leave them empty. Then he goes
on like a sex guide.
     I remember a married woman in Michlalah, in one
of my post-graduate classes in 1971 said to me, "Rav
Rakeffet aizeh bizayon zeh shehagadol betorah tzarich
lehazbir letalmidav aich lehiyot bnai adam." [Rabbi
Rakeffet, what a disgrace that a great man of Torah
has to explain to his students how to be human
beings.] She hit the nail on the head. In the letter
you will see foreplay, chibuk, nishuk, Ribono shel
Olam, but this letter is right on. In the spirit of
that letter, [I refer the reader to section 5 in the
original, in particular] that is exactly where my
thinking comes from.
     We have to have a healthy attitude towards women,
towards sex, towards
marriage. This has to be encouraged. It has to be
developed, [based on] chazal, [and] understanding. But
Ribono shel Olam, not with falshe frumkeit [which
might result in our] developing a dichotomy. [By this
I mean] here I am living with Adah, but when no one is
looking, I am having a lot of fun with Tzilah. Hashem
yerachaim. This is a problem. This is modern life, the
Western World. There is no one living in a ghetto
today. It creeps into our bones.
     Finally I conclude. You want to know something.
If we want to know how to inculcate frumkeit values, I
always quote Rav Yechiel Yaakov Weinberg, that famous
teshuvah, chailek 2, teshuvah 8 of the Seridai Aish.
Rav Yechiel Yaakov saw the best of both worlds. He was
a Litvak. He [Rav Weinberg] becomes, I would say a
discordant person afterwards. At times he is a Litvak
[while] at times he is a German scientific scholar. I
don't think he found a harmonious relationship between
them. I think his criticisms of Rav Chaim Heller
reveal the man's mind very well. Nevertheless, he has
a right to remain discordant. The Rav [Rav Yosaif Dov
Halevi Soloveitchik] also, in my opinion, never
integrated. In terms of [actual studying], it was
never Torah umadah under one roof [i.e., in the same
classroom]. It was a harmonious co-relationship. In
Rav Yechiel Yaakov's case it was a harmonious
co-relationship of Lithuania with a German scientific
approach, a Hildesheimer approach. In his teshuvah [we
see that] he knew both worlds. He says when it comes
to chinuch, we must bow before the German rabbanim. He
says where I come from, Lithuania, when a woman went
to high school and college, 99% of the time she became
not frum. [On the other hand], in Germany women are
professionals, women are doctors, and all of them wear
shaitels and are medaktekot bemitzvot kallot
kechamurot.
     Rav Yisrael Salanter came in to Rav Azriel
Hildesheimer's school to see him. (Rav Yisrael
Salanter lived in Germany for many years, as you
know.) They told Rav Salanter that Rav Hildesheimer
was giving a shiur. Rav Yisrael Salanter goes into the
bais medrash to see what the shiur is about. He comes
in and the whole bais medrash is filled with women.
Rav Yisrael said if a rav were to do that in
Lithuania, they would put him in chairem. But he says,
"Yehi chelki beolam haba [Let my portion in the world
to come be] with what Rav Azriel Hildesheimer is doing
here in Germany."
     This is why the Yekkis had the best of both
worlds. [By this I feel Rabbi Rakeffet means that
German Orthodox women were all of the above that he
described earlier, i.e. best friends, companions,
etc., and in addition they were the intellectual
equals of their husbands. Above all, they were totally
committed to the Halakhah.] The classic Yekki seating
was husband, wife, wife, husband, husband, wife, wife,
husband. Eight people at a table, you had your wife
next to you. On the other side was a man. There was no
mixed seating [in a certain sense] and yet there was a
healthyn attitude.
     I can never forget in my time, in Y.U. circles I
never heard of separate seating, until I left America.
It wasn't shayach [relevant], not just [in] Y.U.
[circles], [but also] in the Litvishe circles. Rav
Aharon Kotler, Rav Moshe Feinstein, Rav Yaakov
Kamenitzky, the Rav, how many weddings [did they
attend] with absolute mixed seating. There was
separate dancing, but
mixed seating. It was normal. It was par for the
course. For their own children, (I was at the
weddings), there was mixed seating. There was no
question about it.

     I just spoke to someone yesterday whose
grandfather was one of the great American rabbanim,
Rav Sholomitz, he has pictures at the Agudas Harabanim
[dinner, where] everyone is sitting with his
rebbitzen. Each one's kavod [honour] was with his
rebbitzen. [They were proud to say], "This is my
rebbitzen." Believe me, these great rabbanim behaved
in front of theirrebbitzens. If their rebbitzens
wouldn't have been there, who knows what would have
happened to the [Torah] world over kashrut, and
[because of] infighting. But with their rebbitzens,
these were their pride. These were their joy. Each one
was their "nevat bayit" (Tehillim 68, 13) [See
ArtScroll Tehillim for an explanation of this phrase.]
     I remember when in right wing circles the first
outflow of the Hungarian or the Chassidic influence
appeared in America [and this] ultimately leads
to everything we have today, universal glatt kosher,
and this attempt at separate seating, etc. I remember
Rav Yosaif Breuer who was revered. He was a man who
was baki in all of shas. He said [that] he is not in
favour [of separate seating]. He is against [separate
seating]; but if you can't stem the tide, the young
people have to sit mixed. When they asked why, he
said, "Because mitzvah gorreret mitzvah [the
fulfillment of one commandment leads to the
fulfillment of another]. We want people to make
shiduchim. We want boys and girls to meet. We want
dates to come out of this [wedding]." This was a
beautiful, a normal, and, above all, a healthy
approach.
     This is what I wanted to say to clarify my words.
I end off again making it very clear. If people have
licentious thoughts, every word I said is batail,
mevutal, keafra de'ara. [If so] I go back into the
1950s [and that is where I shall live]. I leave the
Torah world [of today] very merrily Zayt gezundt,
draitsoch ayer kep [not translatable]. Just don't
bother me .I have what to do with my life, before G-d
and man.








__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

*********************


[ Distributed to the Avodah mailing list, digested version.                   ]
[ To post: mail to avodah@aishdas.org                                         ]
[ For back issues: mail "get avodah-digest vXX.nYYY" to majordomo@aishdas.org ]
[ or, the archive can be found at http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/              ]
[ For general requests: mail the word "help" to majordomo@aishdas.org         ]