Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 335

Thursday, February 3 2000

• Re: smoking
• Re: Smoking Ban
• Re: Smoking Ban
• Re: smoking
• Smoking
• Smoking Ban
• Re: Avodah V4 #334
• Re: Smoking
• Smoking Ban
• Re : Mixed Seating at Weddings
• Re[2]: smoking
• Re[2]: Smoking Ban
• Re[2]: smoking
• Re: Smoking Ban
• Souce Request
• Re: Smoking Ban
• Re: Smoking
• Re: Smoking
• Re: Re[2]: Smoking Ban
• Re: mixed vs. separate seating at weddings
• Re: schools in Israel - handicapped
• Re: Re[2]: smoking
• Re: Smoking Ban

On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Eli Turkel wrote:

> I (again) strongly agree with Carl. I attend a shiur on halacha and
> medicine for doctors. I have tried several times to get the rav to
> discuss smoking.  The answer I consistently get is that he will prohibit
> it in private but will not discuss the issue in public.  Some
> oncologists have approach him saying that they could use a prohibition
> from R. Eliashiv for education of their charedi clientele. We
> consistently are told that a public prohibition will not be discussed. 
> 
> Eli Turkel
> 

While smoking is stupid and repugnant and may be forbidden when it bothers
others, I cannot see an halachic justification for forbidding it in
private or among fellow smokers.

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

On 3 Feb 00, at 14:26, DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:

> Is there any reliable Talmudic precedent on the basis of which a rabbi might 
> rule that smoking contravenes Torah? 

There's u'shmartem es nafshoseichem.

If so, how does one account for the 
> couple of hundred years that Jews have used tobacco, and have lost their 
> health doing so, without rabbinic prohibition? 

Until 1964 (the year of the Surgeon General's report), most people 
thought it was not clear that smoking adversely impacted health. I 
did a paper on public smoking in 1977 or 1978 and I traveled to 
Washington to meet with the pro (tobacco lobby) and anti (Action 
on Smoking and Health) forces. The tobacco lobbiest with whom I 
met (who did not smoke) argued that smoking was a matter of 
choice, that it had not been proved dangerous and certainly that 
second hand smoke had not been proved dangerous. And much of 
the evidence that it IS dangerous was not in the public hands even 
then. The tobacco companies knew it - the public (and the 
Rabbonim) did not.

Why do we ask rabbis to rule 
> on questions like this? 

Because if the (sufficiently prestigious) Rabbis ban it (many) 
people will listen.

What does halacha have to do with problems of this 
> sort, including ultra-high-fat diets (i.e., anything sold in a Kosher deli 
> circa 1950), poor exercise, too much coffee, not enough sleep, over-reliance 
> on prescription medication, etc.? 

Because unlike all the rest of those things, smoking is harmful 
even if done in moderation. In the words of Mr. Justice Holmes, 
smoking is a "clear and present danger," albeit one that may take 
some years to show itself.

Also, some of the other things that you mentioned are difficult to 
define with a uniform standard (I need four hours of sleep a night 
and my wife needs eight - what is the point in getting a psak that 
one should sleep at least six hours a night?). It's very easy to say, 
"it is assur to smoke." Yes, you could say, "it's assur to drink 
coffee" but there is no proof that coffee (AFAIK in any amount) is 
harmful. Yes, one of my vices is that I am a heavy coffee drinker :-) 
Aren't all lawyers?

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

Indeed, R. Moshe Tendler once told a class that he believes it is assur to
eat anything containing palm kernal oil or coconut oil, as they are too
dangerous for consumption.


----- Original Message -----
From: <DFinchPC@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: Smoking Ban


> In a message dated 2/3/00 11:15:40 AM US Central Standard Time,
> gil.student@citicorp.com writes:
>
> << Maybe because the rabbis believe that the internet has the power to
draw a
>  generation of youngsters away from yiddishkeit and will affect their and
> their
>  descendants' neshamos while smoking affects only the smoker (forget about
>  second-hand smoke for the moment) and it is only physically.  The
rabbonim
> are
>  worried about the destruction of their communities and with good reason.
>>
>
> Is there any reliable Talmudic precedent on the basis of which a rabbi
might
> rule that smoking contravenes Torah? If so, how does one account for the
> couple of hundred years that Jews have used tobacco, and have lost their
> health doing so, without rabbinic prohibition? Why do we ask rabbis to
rule
> on questions like this? What does halacha have to do with problems of this
> sort, including ultra-high-fat diets (i.e., anything sold in a Kosher deli
> circa 1950), poor exercise, too much coffee, not enough sleep,
over-reliance
> on prescription medication, etc.? If don't allow cigarattes, on what
theory
> do we all gribenes?
>
> David Finch

On 3 Feb 00, at 13:34, Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechh wrote:

> While smoking is stupid and repugnant and may be forbidden when it bothers
> others, I cannot see an halachic justification for forbidding it in
> private or among fellow smokers.

If I want to run out in the street in front of a car R"L, am I allowed to 
do that? If I want to starve myself to death R"L, am I allowed to do 
that?

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

 Exactly the argument used by the tobacco
companies--if you regulate cigarettes, you have to
regulate red meat, etc.!!!!
___________________
"If don't allow cigarattes, on what
theory 
do we all gribenes?"

David Finch

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

Gee, I thought that Ushmrtem Me'od Lenafshosachem and
Kol Hamatzil Nefesh Achas were high priorities for
Torah Jews as well!!  Am I missing something here?

________________________________________

Maybe because the rabbis believe that the internet has
the power to
draw a 
generation of youngsters away from yiddishkeit and
will affect their
and their 
descendants' neshamos while smoking affects only the
smoker (forget
about 
second-hand smoke for the moment) and it is only
physically.  The
rabbonim are 
worried about the destruction of their communities and
with good
reason.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

R' GS wrote:
> Maybe because the rabbis believe that the internet has the power to draw a 
>  generation of youngsters away from yiddishkeit and will affect their and 
> their  descendants' neshamos while smoking affects only the smoker (forget 
about 
>  second-hand smoke for the moment) and it is only physically.  The rabbonim 
> are  worried about the destruction of their communities and with good 
reason.

Nonetheless, Chamira Sakanta meiIssura.

Mordechai
Cong. Ohave Shalom, YI of Pawtucket, RI http://members.tripod.com/~ohave
HaMakor! http://www.aishdas.org/hamakor Mareh Mekomos Reference Library
WEBSHAS! http://www.aishdas.org/webshas Indexing the Talmud, Daf by Daf

>>>Is there any reliable Talmudic precedent on the basis of which a rabbi might rule that smoking contravenes Torah? If so, how does one account for the couple of hundred years that Jews have used tobacco, and have lost their health doing so, without rabbinic prohibition?...What does halacha have to do with problems of this sort, <<<

U'shmartem es nafshoseichem - a pasuk in chumash.

For a couple of hundred years medical knowledge was ignorant of the fact that smoking causes lung cancer.  Now that we know that, the conclusion is obvious.

(Go easy on me, I am nowhere near as knowlegable as the others on the list).

I have two thoughts on this:

>Is there any reliable Talmudic precedent on the basis of which a rabbi might 
>rule that smoking contravenes Torah? If so, how does one account for the 
>couple of hundred years that Jews have used tobacco, and have lost their 
>health doing so, without rabbinic prohibition?

I once asked my rabbi about this very issue (why haven't rabbis banned
smoking).  (Actually, there were two rabbis there, both Chabad).  One
mentioned that he vaguely recalled a passage (from some authoritative work
-- I apologize I can't even remember where it was! -- perhaps the S"A? --
if anyone wants more definitive info, please ask me, and will ask the rabbi
who told me) that smoking after a meal helps one to digest.  The other
rabbi then mused: "and how can there be such a ruling, a tzaddick can't
commit an aveira"

>Why do we ask rabbis to rule 
>on questions like this? What does halacha have to do with problems of this 
>sort, including ultra-high-fat diets (i.e., anything sold in a Kosher deli 
>circa 1950), poor exercise, too much coffee, not enough sleep, over-reliance 
>on prescription medication, etc.? If don't allow cigarattes, on what theory 
>do we all gribenes?

My other thought is this: doesn't Rambam, in Mishne Torah, talk about
treating one's body in a healthy manner (mentioning exercize and eating
fruits and vegetables).  (Again, sorry, no citation).

In any event, I hope the above will be addressed some day.  I, too, am
mystified at the prevelence of smoking in some circles.

- Eric
erics@radix.net

I thought I'd add a vignette from a personal experience 30 years ago in 
Yerushalayim with one of my rebbeim and mentors, HaRav Shraga Feivel Frank 
zt'l, then Rav of Yemin Moshe and the Av Beis Din of  the Beis Bin Hareidis 
of Yerushalayim. We were "mixed seated" with him at long tables at wedding 
reception when a wife of a rosh yeshiva charged the table and openly 
questioned the propriety of the mixed seating. In a soft voice and radiant 
smile, he replied, "If you want to sit separately, sit separately."
B'chavod,
Jacob Rubenstein

When a world organizatoin decrees Zionism is racism - it's irrelevant?

Rich Wolpoe 


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


On 3 Feb 00, at 13:40, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:

> OTOH, how many gedolim signed petitions to free Soviet Jews, or against the UN
> vote on Zionism/Racism, etc.

Irrelevant. The Gdolim were not going to decree that their constituents take 
political stands.

--- Carl

Holmes actually said this?!

And if smoking is indeed a clear present danger please explain this to my 
89-year-old Mom who still smokes!

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Smoking Ban 

Because unlike all the rest of those things, smoking is harmful 
even if done in moderation. In the words of Mr. Justice Holmes, 
smoking is a "clear and present danger," albeit one that may take 
some years to show itself.

<snip>

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer 
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son, 
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel. 
Thank you very much.

BRAVO,NOW YOU GOT IT!

Lshitoscho that smoking is a clear and present danger:
. it's just as abusrd for gedolim then to ban smoking as it is for them to ban 
playing in trarfic!

Elm mai?  Gedolim - for better for for worse - do not restate the obvious.

And therefore their silence implies nothing legabei their hashkofo on smoking or
Corvairs, rather that they do not speak unless there is no one other that will 
speak up besides them.

And as a crolollary, if they speak out against smoking where then do they draw 
the line?

Rich Wolpoe



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: smoking 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    2/3/2000 3:00 PM


On 3 Feb 00, at 13:34, Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechh wrote:

> While smoking is stupid and repugnant and may be forbidden when it bothers 
> others, I cannot see an halachic justification for forbidding it in
> private or among fellow smokers.

If I want to run out in the street in front of a car R"L, am I allowed to 
do that? If I want to starve myself to death R"L, am I allowed to do 
that?

-- Carl

The question came out re: smoking being a "dovor hashoveh lechol nefesh" legabei
YomTov.  The gemoro forbids Mugmar and by analogy smoking was also considered by
some to NOT be a "dovor hashoveh lechol nefesh".

May I suggest checking out the Aruch haShulchan's opinion on this matter; since 
it's been about 25 years since I checked this out myself.

Rich Wolpoe
Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com

Many of us have heard the idea that the 2 luchos had 5 dibros bein adam lamakom 
and 5 dibros of bein adam lechaverio.

Does anyone have the original source?  Gemoro? Medrash?

Rich Wolpoe
Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com 

The heter for smoking on YomTov is in the Aruch Hashulchan that I just alluded 
to in my other post. (IOW our posts crossed)

And as a former occasional cigar/pipe smoker, I can tell you that it DID help me
to digest a large festive meal, and it was more that just psychosomatic; many 
smokers crave a smoke after a large meal.

----------------------------------------------
The following is from my soap box:

Quick reply to Carl, smoking is not a clear AND PRESENT danger in the Holmesian 
sense of a fire or playing in traffic , it's a cumulative danger, much like 
overeating or any over-toxiticty (lemoshol alcohol).

And to Shoshana, smoking on Purim therefore is only dangerous if it leeds to 
addictive or long-term use (which no doubt it CAN).  OTOH, I can still smoke 2-5
cigars a year (lemoshol on vacation) w/o being addicted.

And to Michah, fwiw, R. Nisson Alpert once looked at me sternly and said to me 
re:to cigar smoking), "Do you know what you are getting into?".

Rich Wolpoe
Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Smoking Ban 
-- I apologize I can't even remember where it was! -- perhaps the S"A? -- 
if anyone wants more definitive info, please ask me, and will ask the rabbi 
who told me) that smoking after a meal helps one to digest.  

<snip>

- Eric
erics@radix.net

In a message dated 2/3/00 2:03:40 PM US Central Standard Time, 
daniel2121_99@yahoo.com writes:

<< Exactly the argument used by the tobacco
 companies--if you regulate cigarettes, you have to
 regulate red meat, etc.!!!!
 ___________________ >>

There's a big difference asking one's government to regulate unhealthful or 
hazardous substances, on the one hand, and asking one's rabbi to decide 
whether the use of such substances is assur, on the other. Over the long 
haul, democracy prevents the  government from engaging in excessive 
regulation. But by merely characterizing an issue as halachic and then 
turning it over to the rabbinate, one grants the rabbinate unlimited 
authority in relation to that issue, because we're agreeing up front to 
following the rabbinical ruling as a form of holy law. If this authority 
extends to things like tobacco usage, then we are in effect granting the 
rabbinate unlimited authority over anything that might be personally harmful 
to us. No one elects rabbis. They are supposed to speak HaShem's law -- and 
no one gets to oust HaShem, either.

David Finch

In a message dated 2/3/00 2:15:18 PM US Central Standard Time, 
C1A1Brown@aol.com writes:

<< 
 For a couple of hundred years medical knowledge was ignorant of the fact 
that smoking causes lung cancer.  Now that we know that, the conclusion is 
obvious. >>

What conclusion? That smoking will kill you? Or that it contravenes the law 
of G-d to smoke?

David Finch

In a message dated 2/3/00 3:55:27 PM US Central Standard Time, 
richard_wolpoe@org.com writes:

<< Holmes actually said this?!
 
 And if smoking is indeed a clear present danger please explain this to my 
 89-year-old Mom who still smokes! >>

Holmes said that the American constitution does not protect as free speech a 
shout of "Fire!" in a crowded theatre. He also made some comments about 
"clear and present danger," but in a context that, as I recall, had nothing 
to do with either smoke or fire. Holmes was a lifelong smoker. He died as a 
very old man, older, I think, than your mom. 

David Finch

In message , MIKE38CT@aol.com writes
>There has been quite a bit of discussion recently about mixed seating at 
>weddings, but the comments have focused on the reception and not the chuppah 
>itself.  I think it's interesting to note that most folks who would not have 
>a problem with mixed seating at the reception would be very uncomfortable 
>with mixed seating at the chuppah. 

I think you are making an assumption here.  I have been to very few
weddings where the reception is mixed but the chuppa is separate
(although that does seem to be minhag America, from what I can tell).
In Israel, often people just tend to mill around (mixed) at the chuppa
(which tends not to be in shul), while in Australia, despite it being in
shul, the seating was always mixed in cases where the reception was
mixed (even when you had mincha beforehand, which was often the case,
they would daven mincha, and then the women would come downstairs, and
then you would have the chuppa with mixed seating). 


> Is there any reason why there should be a 
>difference?  If a chuppah is held in a shul, does that have any bearing on 
>why separate seating should be halachically required, even though a wedding 
>is not technically a prayer service?

As indicated, my experience is that they are mixed.  The main reason I
can see to hold separate is that sometimes you have mincha before and go
straight into the chuppah without the break you get in Australia while
everybody comes down and finds their family etc etc (that seems to be
the custom in England, in which case, of course, it makes sense.
English weddings, because of going virtually straight from mincha into
the chuppa without a break, do have a certain formality that is broken
where there is movement.  Of course, in England, you have to have a
proper chazan around, in the proper garb, so to maximise his usage you
can get chazanas for mincha as well as for the chuppa).

>Obviously, the questions I've posed above are mainly directed at the folks 
>who do not have problems with mixed seating at a reception 

and who do have separate seating at a chuppah.  I am not sure how large
a group you are talking about here.

>Michael Feldstein
>

Shabbat Shalom

Chana

-- 
Chana/Heather Luntz

In message , richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes
>Question: wouldn't the change in language provide an additional hardship on an 
>English speaking child that is already challenged?
>

Actually it is better for the kid (unless you are planning to teach them
no Hebrew at all).  A lot of academically challenged kids find dealing
with more than one langauge almost impossible (In fact, one kid who came
to the clinic at which my mother works, one of the biggest difficulties
was the kid was having to negotiate English (out in the street), Yiddish
(in the community) and Hebrew (prayerbook etc).  It was the strong
recommendation of the governmental clinic at which she works that they
pick one language, any language, and stick with it - and if they didn't
they doubted the child would ever learn to deal with any language, and
of course, the only option of the three was to pick up and move to
Israel and speak Hebrew).

Shabbat Shalom

Chana

>Rich Wolpoe
-- 
Chana/Heather Luntz

On 3 Feb 00, at 15:05, richard_wolpoe@org.com wrote:

> When a world organizatoin decrees Zionism is racism - it's irrelevant?

Well certainly to the anti-Zionists among them it is.

The Gdolim (most of them anyway) try not to get involved in 
politics. That was viewed as politics.

What psak would you expect them to issue? To go out and sign 
petitions? To whom? Saying what?

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

On 3 Feb 00, at 15:26, Eric Simon wrote:

> My other thought is this: doesn't Rambam, in Mishne Torah, talk about
> treating one's body in a healthy manner (mentioning exercize and eating
> fruits and vegetables).  (Again, sorry, no citation).

He says to exercise in Hilchos Deos 4:14. Interestingly, in 4:11 he 
says NOT to eat too much fruit.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

*********************


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