Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 339

Saturday, February 5 2000

• Re: Safek Sakkonas Nefashos
• Re:Making Aliyah To save Your Children
• Re: New takana in Israel prohibiting lavish weddings
• Re: Avodah V4 #337
• Smoking Ban
• Other Health Issues (was re: Smoking)
• smoking
• Re: smoking and sakkanah
• Re: making aliya
• Smoking
• smoking ban
• smoking ban
• Re: smoking
• Re: smoking
• Smoking in the BM
• Starting Gemara
• Re: smoking and sakkanah
• Wine
• Smoking and Halocho
• Re: smoking ban
• Re: Smoking in the BM

On 5 Feb 00, at 18:48, BACKON@vms.huji.ac.il wrote:

> The Nishmat Avraham (YD 349 #4) discusses the permissibility of volunteering
> for a medical experiment or therapeutic clinical trial. As long as the odds
> are low that any serious danger will ensue, then it's *lichora* OK to
> volunteer.

There's an Achiezer that goes much further than that w/r/t 
experimental surgery (RYGB cited it to me during an earlier 
discussion). But that tshuva presupposes that the person is 
already seriously ill.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

On 4 Feb 00, at 11:50, moti2@juno.com wrote:

>    I believe  tofos says in Sanhedrin that people should not live in
> Eretz Yisrael since there are so many laws that apply there and not in
> Chutz Laaretz(outside Israel)so we will inadverntly sin so it is better
> not to go.  

I think you're referring to Tosfos in Ksuvos 110b. This is part of post 
I did to mail jewish in 1997 which answers that Tosfos.

He says in the portion starting "Hoo Omer" (commenting on the 
Gemara which says that if a husband wants to make aliya and the 
wife does not then she is forced to make aliya or he may divorce 
her without paying her Ksuva) that this does not apply today 
because there is "sakanat drachim" (danger on the way) and then 
he brings Rav Chaim Cohen who says that there is no mitzva to live 
in Eretz Yisrael today because we cannot properly perform the 
mitzvos which must be performed there.

I will take the second argument first since that is the one you 
brought.  The Gilyon Maharsha at the end of the Gemara brings a 
Tshuvos Maharit who states that this "Rav Chaim Cohen"
was a later insertion of a "Talmid Toeh" (a mistaken student). But 
even assuming that this is not a mistake, can it be said that we 
can't fulfill the mitzvos properly? Granted we don't know who is a 
Cohen or a Levi today with 100% certainty but IMHO that should 
not stop us from living in Eretz Yisrael - we still can separate the 
Trumos and Maasros and leave them to rot.  (This leaving aside for 
a minute that there have been no Maasros given to the Leviim since 
the time of Ezra because he penalized them for not coming up to 
build the Second Temple). Shmita can *certainly* still be
kept today - people do it every seven years.  So what mitzvos are 
there that are applicable when there is no Temple that *cannot* be 
performed today?  It seems to me that each of the problems has 
an acceptable Halachic solution.

As to the "sakanat drachim", this refers to danger on the way to 
Eretz Yisrael - not to danger *in* Eretz Yisrael (leaving aside for a 
minute that the streets of Jerusalem are much safer than the 
streets of New York City).  Sakanat drachim referred to boats 
sinking, caravans being attacked, etc.  And yet even in Tosfos' 
time Jews kept coming here - the Rambam, the Ramban and many 
others.  It is well known that the Chafetz Chaim planned to come to 
Eretz Yisrael and never made it.  How can anyone seriously argue 
that there is sakanat drachim involved in coming to Eretz
Yisrael and then get on a plane and come here for two or three 
weeks as a tourist and then go back to America? IMHO the 
metzius has changed since that Tosfos was written. And in today's 
metzius, I don't find the argument of sakanat drachim very 
convincing.

Finally, just to bring it full circle. Have you ever been to Eretz 
Yisrael? If so, l'shitoscho, what did you do about trumos and 
maasros while you were here?

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

On 5 Feb 00, at 19:04, BACKON@vms.huji.ac.il wrote:

> I just read over shabbat that leading Litvishe roshei yeshivot will
> very shortly be coming out with a takana prohibiting lavish weddings.
> Briefly: no more than 250 guests at $10/plate, no more than 3 members
> in the band, and a categorical prohibition on the parents to purchase
> an apartment for the young couple during the first 5 years of marriage
> (after 5 years, they can purchase an apartment costing no more than
> $90,000).

I heard something similar to this more than a month ago. The 
version I heard did not go into all of the details that you did. It 
limited borrowing from Gemachs to $15,000 per side in connection 
with the wedding and anything that goes along with it (i.e. the 
apartment).

I had been led to understand that the "going rate" for parents for an 
Israeli wedding (principally the apartment - NOT the wedding itself) 
is $40,000 per side. But when I mentioned that to the people who 
were discussing this "takana," they laughed and told me that far 
more than that is spent.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

> Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 12:30:15 -0600
> From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
> Subject: Re: Smoking; Rabbinic Ban
> 
> But, here, RRW's point is very important, and must be expanded. We know from
> the grand social experiment of Prohibition in the USA that such endeavors
> are bound to failure. Massive legislation of that sort has a way of
> backfiring. The only reason why by drugs the legislation, has ineffective as
> it is, still works to a limited extent, is because drugs were never freely
> available and widely used to the extent that alchohol and tobacco were and
> still largely are.
> 
> Thus, for rabbinic pronouncements - that will not be backed by any
> legislative or judicial authority - to be worthwhile, requires, at the very
> least a situation analogous to drugs as opposed to alcohol. The Internet, in
> the community in which these rabbinic pronouncements possess authority, is
> still, as emerging technology, roughly analogous to drugs. Smoking, however,
> is analogous to alchohol. A Prohibition (bereft of enforcement mechanisms to
> boot) would be meaningless, and, perhaps, counterproductive.

Look at where smoking levels have gone in the US since all the 
anti-smoking legislation was introduced. Do they still smoke in the 
Beis HaMedrash by you? I'll bet they don't. In many Yeshivas here 
they still do. If all the gdolim came out and said you shouldn't 
smoke, I think that at least b'farhesya people would stop. That 
would already reduce the amount of nezek.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

> Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 23:33:24 -0600
> From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
> Subject: Re: Smoking Ban
>
> But, to propose that a specific Rav, great as he may be, or even a group of
> Rabbonim, should ban smoking, is an interesting idea, but one that would be
> bereft of any binding authority.

If by "binding authority" you mean that no one could get malkus for 
it, ain hachi nami. But I think that the strength of all of the gdolei 
hador forbidding smoking would be one that would cause social 
pressures which, at least in the world that takes daas Torah 
seriously, would be difficult to resist. 

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

> Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 19:00:23 -0500
> From: richard_wolpoe@org.com
> Subject: Re[4]: smoking  
> 
> So why stop at smoking
> 
> 1) Requiring Mammograms for women and prostate exams for men!

Actually requiring mammograms for women is a major problem in 
the Charedi community in Israel. R"L there are many women in 
whom it has been caught too late, and there is a movement going 
on right now to increase awareness of the problem. I don't think the 
problem with prostate cancer for men, in this community at least, 
is as bad.

> 4) How about driving on Purim?

I have heard Gdolim speak out against drunk driving on Purim. I 
know that when I lived in the States the Rosh Yeshiva always 
insisted on a designated driver when the boys went out collecting.

> 6) Driving without seatbelts or infant carseats.

The Chadorim in Israel would go broke R"L....

> 7) Riding the NYC Subway system

I thought this was actually safer than it was 10 years ago. Am I 
mistaken?

> I think the Gedolim have a sense what IS their business and what is not.
> How about this, why not require anyone who wishes to smoke consult their LOR 
> first with a shei'lo for a psak din!

I'm in favor, but only the Gdolim themselves can require it.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

>On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Daniel Levine wrote:

>Why can't we just acknowledge that many in the frum
>community are just plain igmorant, unsophisticated
>and/or uncaring when it comes to MODERN medical
>knowledge and concerns.
>
>Look, I can guarantee you that there are more morbidly
>obese men and heavy smokers in some of the small botei
>midrash/minyanim that I frequent than in my entire
>firm of several hundred attorneys.
>

>Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer responded:
It is precisely because I do not agree with such prejudicial statemts. 
Substitute the word "black" for "frum" in your note and read it back to 
yourself.>>

There is a tremendous difference and you know it. A person can criticise his 
own people and even certain segments of his own people with much nastier 
language than can an outsider. Blacks often refer to each other by the most 
deragatory of names - and that is accepted but a white person who would 
refer to a black in such a manner would be considered a recist - deservedly.

If you diagree with David's point than address that but using innuendo to 
refer to him as a racist is an ad hominem attack and improper.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

<< I understand the pasuk to refer to G-d's incorporeality.<<<

Chazal understood the pasuk as referring to endangerment of life as well - 
see Berachos 32b, cited l'halacha in Be'er HaGolah C.M. 427, also see Torah 
Temimah in Devarim 4.
 
>>>As to the Rambam, that language is not one of prohibition, but of caution. 
>>

See the Be'er HaGolah above based on the Rambam in Rotzeiach.  The words I 
cited were 'tzarich adam...' - as much a halachic directive as any other 
Rambam in Mishne Torah.  

Re: safek sakkanah - aside from my comments in last posting on the ra'ayos 
being taken out of the context of makom mitzva, the entire discussion is 
irrelevant to smoking, which al pi rov is a vaday sakkanah, albeit a delayed 
one.  What you need ra'ayos for is your contention that the din of not 
endangering one's life is only applicable to an immediate danger.  Nothing to 
do with safek sakkanah.  Any proof?

<< I believe  tofos says in Sanhedrin that people should not live in
 Eretz Yisrael since there are so many laws that apply there and not in
 Chutz Laaretz(outside Israel)so we will inadverntly sin so it is better
 not to go.   >>

I think you are looking for Kesubos 100b td"h Huh citing R' Chaim Kohen.  

There are some medical matters of fact that people need to be reminded of 
that distinguish smoking from other sakones:

1. Smoking vs. (say) running out in traffic, taking a heart-stopping tiyul, 
etc.:

Running out in traffic is a one-time risk -- Timmy runs out and either gets 
kholile hit or gets lucky. This risk does not change. Smoking, on the other 
hand, is a sofek sakones nefoshes summed in some cases over many years 
(equalling perhaps a sakones nefoshes bevadaus?)

2. Smoking is addictive -- i.e., stopping requires withdrawal, which isn't 
fun at all. Compare to diet, etc., a change in which occasions much 
complaint on the part of the person receiving the "doctor's orders" but is 
often doable WITHOUT special techniques and the like.

3. Medical science is not 100% certain by any means, but the additional risk 
of death attributable to smoking is very clear, while the health effects of 
many foods are still to be elucidated.

Please consider the above before making unwarranted comparisons.

Sholem Berger
sholemberger@hotmail.com
bergez01@med.nyu.edu
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Regarding smoking, sakana, etc…..

We do not each fish and meat together,   The gemora states that it is a 
sekana.

While nature may have changed, and no one in the medical field seems to 
indicate that the consumption of fish and meat together is a danger, no 
posek would ever suggest the consumption of fish and meat together is mutor 
today.

Since the dangers of smoking are so clear, should we not treat it any less 
than the consumption of fish and meat together?

/af

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

We live in a society where chumras are taken for granted.

When it comes to pesach, we search for chumras and go all out to be yotzei 
kol ha'shitos.  The reason being that chometz is an isur kores.  Even though 
many of the things people don't do on pesach have no basis in halacha.

Once last thing, many poskim won't even allow the use of kitnios 
derivatives.  One thing that comes to mind is that Rabbi Bumenkrantz assur's 
Bean-O on pesach since it is made from the enzyme of a bean.  Now that is a 
big chumra.

Be tat as it may, with such a preamble, when it comes to smoking, if it is 
even close to an issur torah, why would anyone look for a kula when they 
will not look for a kula in any other area?


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

See the pasuk - Devarim 4:15.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Akiva Atwood <atwood@netvision.net.il>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 1:33 PM
Subject: RE: smoking


> I think I'm missing something here -- could you explain?
> 
> Akiva
> 

Not at all. I see his post as an attack on the members of "small botei
midrash/minyanim: (the "blacks") - who are doing many fine things that the
members of the "firm of several hundred attorneys" (the "whites") do not,
and therefore, with davening, learning, and family obligations, do not have
the same time to devote to extensive exercise regimens and health clubs.

Therefore, I find the argument offensive.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: moshe rudner <mosherudner@hotmail.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 6:20 PM
Subject: smoking


> >On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Daniel Levine wrote:
>
> >Why can't we just acknowledge that many in the frum
> >community are just plain igmorant, unsophisticated
> >and/or uncaring when it comes to MODERN medical
> >knowledge and concerns.
> >
> >Look, I can guarantee you that there are more morbidly
> >obese men and heavy smokers in some of the small botei
> >midrash/minyanim that I frequent than in my entire
> >firm of several hundred attorneys.
> >
>
> >Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer responded:
> It is precisely because I do not agree with such prejudicial statemts.
> Substitute the word "black" for "frum" in your note and read it back to
> yourself.>>
>
> There is a tremendous difference and you know it. A person can criticise
his
> own people and even certain segments of his own people with much nastier
> language than can an outsider. Blacks often refer to each other by the
most
> deragatory of names - and that is accepted but a white person who would
> refer to a black in such a manner would be considered a recist -
deservedly.
>
> If you diagree with David's point than address that but using innuendo to
> refer to him as a racist is an ad hominem attack and improper.
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>

I know of no major yeshivos that allow smoking in the BM at this point.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Carl and Adina Sherer <sherer@actcom.co.il>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 3:39 PM
Subject: Re: Avodah V4 #337

> Look at where smoking levels have gone in the US since all the 
> anti-smoking legislation was introduced. Do they still smoke in the 
> Beis HaMedrash by you? I'll bet they don't. In many Yeshivas here 
> they still do. If all the gdolim came out and said you shouldn't 
> smoke, I think that at least b'farhesya people would stop. That 
> would already reduce the amount of nezek.
> 
> -- Carl
> 
> 

Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 09:03:20 -0500
From: gil.student@citicorp.com
Subject: Starting Gemara

<<I heard from one yeshiva that they start teaching mishnayos in 3rd
grade (to 8 yr olds) and gemara in 4th grade (to 9 yr olds).  Is that
standard?  Could 
people please specify the approximate affiliation within the MO/RW
spectrum when stating a school's stance on this.

I would have thought that you would give boys a few years of just
mishnayos 
before starting gemara.  But what do I know?>>

	In my experience,  fifth grade is fairly standard for starting Gemara
(as is Elu Metzios).  My son just started sixth grade in a yeshiva which
starts Gemara then,  but it is fairly unusual. I have never heard of
starting in fourth grade.  I don't recall when they start Mishnayos,  but
most, AFAIK,  continue with Mishnayos even after starting Gemara, at
least for the first few years.

	I don't know of any correlation of this with MO/RW status.

Gershon

----- Original Message -----
From: <C1A1Brown@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 5:51 PM
Subject: Re: smoking and sakkanah


> << I understand the pasuk to refer to G-d's incorporeality.<<<
>
> Chazal understood the pasuk as referring to endangerment of life as well -
> see Berachos 32b, cited l'halacha in Be'er HaGolah C.M. 427, also see
Torah
> Temimah in Devarim 4.
>

They did not. See the Maharsha there. And, if they did, there is something
very missing in the Rambam Hil. Rotzei'ach u'Shemiras Nefesh 11:5.

> See the Be'er HaGolah above based on the Rambam in Rotzeiach.  The words I
> cited were 'tzarich adam...' - as much a halachic directive as any other
> Rambam in Mishne Torah.
>

We have discussed this on Avodah in the past, concerning the Rambam in
Yesodei Ha'Torah and elsewhere. Not everything in the Rambam's Yad is meant
to be actual Halacha. A language as "tzarich adam" is certainly not redolent
of d'orysa or d'rabbanan, but rather of hanhogo tova.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

Rabbi Blumenkrantz in his annual book The Laws of Pesach a Digest, has a
section on wine. There he discusses specific wines. Which are mevushal,
which have sugar added and which have water added.

Kol Tov
Ezriel

I have been thinking a little about what I find objectionable in the
discussion here. After all, I think smoking is bad and stupid, so what is my
problem (I am sure many of you have been wondering the same thing :-) )?

Let us break down, first, the issue.

There are two different thrusts here:

1. Smoking is assur al pi halocho. A rabbinic pronouncement would merely
confirm that prohibition (psak).
2. Smoking may be muttar, but it should be banned. A pronouncement would
promulgate that ban (takkana).

I have argued that stance no. 1 cannot be supported by halocho. (M' Aviva
Fee earlier this evening asked why this is not comparable to meat and fish.
Indeed, the consumption of meat and fish is not listed by the Rambam as
prohibited - see the Shu"t Chasam Sofer YD 101 for a discussion of the
issue. Perhaps, however, the Rambam felt that meat and fish is a long term
SSN and therefore is not to be included in his list in Chaps. 10-11 of
Rotzei'ach, V'duk.) I have argued that stance no. 2 cannot be applied in our
day and age, for theoretical and pragmatic reasons. (M' Chana Luntz asked
earlier this evening if this contradicts my stance vis-a-vis R' Elyashiv's
proposed registry. It certainly does not. R' Elyashiv was not poroposing a
takkono but a pragmatic solution to a bad problem.)

But what really bothers me is the implication of the proposals here. In a
sense, they seem to me thoroughly "Brisker". The underlying assumption of
the drive for halachic solutions to a health problem is that there is, in
Yahadus, only Halocho and non-Halocho. I.e., either it is assur - or muttar.

But Yahadus is not pure Halocho. There are other values beyond "Assur" and
"Muttar". There is the greatest question of all: "Will this activity add to
or detract from my Ahavas or Yiras Hashem?" And there are many other
corollary questions, such as one which may even be halachic; "Will this
activity make me a naval b'reshus ha'Torah?"

So, it seems to me that it makes our Yahadus shallow, almost
two-dimensional, if our sole criterion is Halocho: Muttar or Assur. Indeed,
it seems to impart to the religious world a distinct aura of immaturity:
"They are not sophisticated enough to understand health issues qua health
issues, so let's attack them with their own weapon: religion."

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

On 5 Feb 00, at 19:30, aviva fee wrote:

> When it comes to pesach, we search for chumras and go all out to be yotzei 
> kol ha'shitos.  The reason being that chometz is an isur kores.  Even though 
> many of the things people don't do on pesach have no basis in halacha.

You mean like gerbrocks? :-) 

> Be tat as it may, with such a preamble, when it comes to smoking, if it is 
> even close to an issur torah, why would anyone look for a kula when they 
> will not look for a kula in any other area?

For the same reason they look for kulas when it comes to moving 
to Israel. Because it's hard to break a habit....

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

On 5 Feb 00, at 21:34, Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer wrote:

> I know of no major yeshivos that allow smoking in the BM at this point.

Precisely my point. Here they still do smoke in the Beis Medrash 
(or right outside the door). If the Gdolim here issued one of those 
famous posters that assured smoking on the premises (not just in 
the BM itself) of all Yeshivas, and that agav smoking is not a 
proper thing for a ben Torah to do at all, it would have a tremendous 
influence.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

*********************


[ Distributed to the Avodah mailing list, digested version.                   ]
[ To post: mail to avodah@aishdas.org                                         ]
[ For back issues: mail "get avodah-digest vXX.nYYY" to majordomo@aishdas.org ]
[ or, the archive can be found at http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/              ]
[ For general requests: mail the word "help" to majordomo@aishdas.org         ]