Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 387

Tuesday, February 22 2000

• Daf Yomi Query
• Re: Ban on Cigarettes
• diyuk
• Re: Subject: Biography of SE
• Re: diyuk
• Ibn Ezra
• Re[2]: Rashi
• Re: 60 minutes
• Re: besmirching frum sociopaths
• Re:diyukim
• Stirah in Artscroll siddurim
• Re: Re[2]: Rashi
• Re: 60 minutes
• Re[2]: Diyukim
• Re: Stirah in Artscroll siddurim
• Re[2]: Stirah in Artscroll siddurim
• Re[2]: besmirching frum sociopaths
• Re: Stirah in Artscroll siddurim
• Re: Re[2]: besmirching frum sociopaths
• Re: besmirching frum sociopaths
• Re: SE impressions

The MME there says that the necessity of Kiddush Hashem is that one must be
mefayes someone who has a claim against you on their own terms, even if
those terms are repugnant by our standards (i.e., killing and hanging Bnei
Shaul). This may be a geder of Hora'as Sha'ah, but it was necessary for
Kiddush Shem Shomayim.

Can this be applied, as RHM says, to either Chillonim or (l'havdil)
Yishmaelim?

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org



----- Original Message -----
From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Cc: <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2000 2:17 PM
Subject: Daf Yomi Query


> > Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 08:47:01 -0600
> > From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
> > <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
> > Subject: Daf Yomi Query
>
> <<Interesting Gemaros about the Giv'onim and Dovid on Yevamos 78-79.  See
> also the Michtav Me'Eliyahu vol. 5 p. 279. Are there ramifications for
> modren application in the Middle East...?>>
>
> <snip>
>
> <<Wait till you get there >>
>
> Since I,  like RCS,  am in possession of no more than the first three
> volumes of Michtav Me'Eliahu,  but AM up to date in Daf Yomi,  could you
> elaborate?
>
> Gershon
>

On 21 Feb 00, at 20:34, Gershon Dubin wrote:

> On Tue, 22 Feb 2000 00:15:20 +0200 "Carl and Adina Sherer" 
> 
> <<I prefer to think that we on Avodah are mechaven to some issues
> which the gedolim consider berumo shel olam;    that we are not (only
> > <g>)spouting hot air.
> 
> I give the gdolim more credit than I give us :-) >>
> 
>  That they read Avodah???

No. That they know what is on our minds better than we know what 
is on their minds.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

	Nobody seems interested in picking up my question about aleinu (lecha
sichra vs. lecha tichra).  Could someone at least give me the
authoritative version from some sidurim?  I only saw Artscroll (tichra)
and tikun Meir (sichra) which hardly exhausts the siddur authorities.

Gershon

> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 21:26:10 EST
> From: Maylocks1@aol.com
> Subject: Biography of SE
[del for bw]
>     It has been said that my biography is the only "real" study of a
modern
> gadol. I don't know if that's true (Ellenson has written on
Hildesheimer for
> example).

Another biography that is a study of a modern gadol is the biography
of Rabbi Dr. Jacob Hoffman, the Man and his Era by Dr.l Yaakov Zur.

Shoshana L. Boublil

Gershon Dubin wrote:


>         Nobody seems interested in picking up my question about aleinu (lecha
> sichra vs. lecha tichra).  Could someone at least give me the
> authoritative version from some sidurim?  I only saw Artscroll (tichra)
> and tikun Meir (sichra) which hardly exhausts the siddur authorities.



I've found both girsot in eleven different siddurim.

	Degusha			Refuya
	-------			------
	Ish Mazliah		HaSiddur HaHida
	Avodat HaShem		Ahavat Zion
	Italiani		Bet Tefillah
	Tehillat HaShem		Kol Sasson
	 (Lubavitch)		Sha'arei Zion
				Or VaDerech
				Nezer Hakodesh
				Tefilat Yesharim

All but the noted Lubavitch one are Sefaradi.

I never noticed this before. I guess because I don't pay enough
attention to the difference between the tav degusha and tav refuyah. 

It appears that the kaf refuya is traditional for Sefaradim, but that
the degusha form is preferred by R' Mazuz for reasons unknown to me.
Avodat Hashekm is another siddur published by one of his talmidim. The
Italian nusach is very old, and not used even by Italians, I think,
there being another, more popular, Roman nusach.


---sam

I suggest you look in the mavo of the Yam Shel Shlomo to Bava Kamma and
see what he writes about the Ibn Ezra :-) It's on the second page, halfway
down the first column.

Josh

Does he mean this universally throught his perisuh or in specific locations?

EG If he says lefi peshuto X and Rabboseinu dorshu Y does the Y imply peshat or 
Drush

Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Rashi 

Rashi himself says in Breishis 3:8, "v'ani lo bosi ela li'pshuto shel 
mikra, ul'agada ha'myasheves divrei ha'mikra, davar davur al ofanav."

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son, 
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel. 
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

> The hate that secular society has for
> religious society is enormous.

I've been wanting to comment on this since last night, and I
see that others have done so already. I would like to add
from personal experience.

Over the past 6 years I've worked in various places in Eretz
Yisroel where chilonim were the dominant force and majority.

I am easily identifiable as a chariedi with beard, payos and
black kippa. Not only have I never been prejudiced against
in the work place - despite the fact that I'm experienced
but not qualified for the jobs I applied for - I find people
have a special respect / affinity for frum people.

Certain chiloni ex-colleagues of mine even take the time to
regularly keep in touch - despite the fact that I don't have
the time or energy to reciprocate.

This secular - religious "war" is a figment of the
imagination of the media who (for some reason the eludes me)
would like to see such a war.

I'll add that on the streets I have occasionally been the
target of "Jewish anti-Semitism" but I think it's a
[shrinking] fringe element - and not a woe of Israeli
society at large.

- Danny

Danny & Naomi Schoemann
Rehov Goldknopf 41/6
Ramat Shlomo, Jerusalem
Tel: +972-2-571 0181
eMail: naomi@kosher.com

On 21 Feb 00, at 22:28, DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 2/21/00 7:53:17 PM US Central Standard Time, 
> targum1@juno.com writes:
> 
> << Can someone please define "frum predatory criminal"? How can one be
> a
>  predatory criminal and still be considered frum? What next: a frum
>  mechalel shabbos?
>   >>
> 
> It's no easier to define a "Frum Sociopath," either, from that point
> of view. If it's impossible to be frum and to commit a predatory
> crime, then our problem is solved. We can report all of them to the
> authorities without further hand-wringing.

I think that if it's known with 100% certainty, then he's an aino oseh 
maaseh amcha and the laws of lashon hara don't apply. Usual 
caveats about not being a posek etc.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Shlomo Godick wrote:
> : he asked me: where is the subject of the sentence?  Where is
> : the antecedent?  Who is mashmi'im kol?
to which Micha Berger responded: 
> "Kesheim shemakdishim oso *bishmei marom*". After establishing that 
> we're
> describing tzeva'os Hashayim, isn't "they" enough?

Indeed. After all, in the weekday k'dusha we say "l'umasam boruch
yomairu" with no antecedent other than the "Kesheim shemakdishim oso
*bishmei marom*".

Sadya N. Targum

________________________________________________________________
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Recently someone pointed out a "stirah" in the Artscroll siddurim
(la'omer/ba'omer); here's another. In the hebrew Artscroll siddur, it says
that the Torah should be removed from the aron before "Breech Shmeh" is said
(in accordance with R' Moshe's opinion), while the english Artscroll siddur
says that the Torah is removed after "Breech Shmeh" is said.

While I suppose there may be a valid reason for the different instructions
(given the different audiences for the two siddurim), there is something to
be said for consistency.

Kol tuv,
Aryeh

On 22 Feb 00, at 8:35, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:

> Does he mean this universally throught his perisuh or in specific
> locations?

I quoted him word for word (copied it out of the perush which is 
referred to in Shavel's introduction to his edition). It *sounds* 
universal.

> Rashi himself says in Breishis 3:8, "v'ani lo bosi ela li'pshuto shel
> mikra, ul'agada ha'myasheves divrei ha'mikra, davar davur al ofanav."
> 

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 22 Feb 00, at 15:11, Danny Schoemann wrote:

> > The hate that secular society has for
> > religious society is enormous.

> Over the past 6 years I've worked in various places in Eretz
> Yisroel where chilonim were the dominant force and majority.
> 
> I am easily identifiable as a chariedi with beard, payos and
> black kippa. Not only have I never been prejudiced against
> in the work place - despite the fact that I'm experienced
> but not qualified for the jobs I applied for - I find people
> have a special respect / affinity for frum people.
> 
> Certain chiloni ex-colleagues of mine even take the time to
> regularly keep in touch - despite the fact that I don't have
> the time or energy to reciprocate.

My own experiences have been similar to Danny's, and except for 
my current job (all of my partners are dati) I also worked 
exclusively in places where Chilonim were the (generally 
overwhelming) majority. Okay, Danny and I know each other, so 
hopefully he won't be insulted if I tell you that my peos (and usually 
my beard) are shorter than his are :-).

> This secular - religious "war" is a figment of the
> imagination of the media who (for some reason the eludes me)
> would like to see such a war.

I'm not sure I would go that far. While it is definitely not ALL the 
chilonim who are against Charedim, and while it is definitely played 
up by the leftist media for its own purposes, it is also true that 
Tommy Lapid's Shinui party, a party that would be ostracized as 
racist in most countries outside of Austria and possibly France, got 
six seats in the last Knesset election. That reflects enough of a 
critical mass to make a war. And if you add that a good portion of 
Meretz (also six seats) is not exactly receptive to fruhmkeit, there 
is potentially a major problem on our hands. BTW it's a problem 
that mainly comes from the Ashkenazi chilonim, not from the 
Sephardim. But it is not a problem to the extent that is depicted in 
the media here.

Yes, there is some job discrimination too (some of you may recall 
the post I bounced to this list from tachlis about the lawsuit against 
the company that would not hire a Shomer Shabbos worker), but 
that may be "practical" ("we need someone who will work on 
Shabbos") and not done out of resentment.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

That's my impression that RYBS was different re: minhag and lomdus

It is also my impression that many in the Litvisher world made that same 
dichotomy..

According to Marc Shaprio's book - this was the rationale for Wissenshaft for 
RDZ Hoffman and the SE.

My guess is that RYBS felt that philosophy KANT influence halachah; and neither 
can PURE REASON <double entendres>.

Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Diyukim 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    2/19/2000 11:18 PM


On Sat, 19 Feb 2000 19:40:15 +0200 "Carl and Adina Sherer" 
<sherer@actcom.co.il> writes:

<<So then you think he held that LAomer and BAomer were both 
> required? How about Zeicher and Zecher in Ashrei (where he also 
> held to say both)? I think that at least in these two cases he 
> believed there was a safek that couldn't be resolved, and therefore 
> he held we should say both.>>

	I was not aware of these practices.  Is it possible that he 
distinguished his lomdus from his own personal practice?

Gershon

In a message dated 2/22/00 8:57:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, aes@ll-f.com 
writes:

<< Recently someone pointed out a "stirah" in the Artscroll siddurim
 (la'omer/ba'omer); here's another. In the hebrew Artscroll siddur, it says
 that the Torah should be removed from the aron before "Breech Shmeh" is said
 (in accordance with R' Moshe's opinion), while the english Artscroll siddur
 says that the Torah is removed after "Breech Shmeh" is said.
 
 While I suppose there may be a valid reason for the different instructions
 (given the different audiences for the two siddurim), there is something to
 be said for consistency.
  >>

I feel a little wierd defending Artscroll, but it is possible that the two 
Siddurim were edited for diferent groups. For example, the RCA Siddur is an 
Artscroll Siddur, but is edited by RCA people, so it may contain different 
Minhagim than one of the standard Artscroll Siddurim. I assume that there are 
a few different Siddurim out there published by Artscroll that are edited for 
different audiences, hence the different minhagim.

Jordan Hirsch 

The RCA siddur is a reprint onf an earlier non-RCA siddur with just a few minor 
changes, eg the hakdomo and prayer for Israel.  The text of the Sefira afaik was
not altered.

Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
  

I feel a little wierd defending Artscroll, but it is possible that the two 
Siddurim were edited for diferent groups. For example, the RCA Siddur is an 
Artscroll Siddur, but is edited by RCA people, so it may contain different 
Minhagim than one of the standard Artscroll Siddurim. I assume that there are 
a few different Siddurim out there published by Artscroll that are edited for 
different audiences, hence the different minhagim.

Jordan Hirsch 

FWIW, when my wife worked for the Attorney General, a "frum" sociopath - 
convicted of drug dealing, etc. - insisted on not trimming his beard in prison. 
The prison did not demand he remove his beard , only that he crop it short for 
security reasons.

Now here was a guy - convicted of crimes and sentensed to 10 years in prison - 
insisting that it was "ossur" to even trim his beard, and he fought the state of
New York on this matter.

A prominent rav testified that he knew that a leading poseik trimmed his beard 
lechovod Yomtov etc. and that therefore there was no "issur" on trimming.  
Removing the beard entirely is another matter.

Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
  

It's no easier to define a "Frum Sociopath," either, from that point of view. 
If it's impossible to be frum and to commit a predatory crime, then our 
problem is solved. We can report all of them to the authorities without 
further hand-wringing.

David Finch

On 22 Feb 00, at 9:37, TROMBAEDU@aol.com wrote:

> I feel a little wierd defending Artscroll, but it is possible that the
> two Siddurim were edited for diferent groups. For example, the RCA
> Siddur is an Artscroll Siddur, but is edited by RCA people, so it may
> contain different Minhagim than one of the standard Artscroll
> Siddurim. I assume that there are a few different Siddurim out there
> published by Artscroll that are edited for different audiences, hence
> the different minhagim.

Huh? I thought the only difference between the RCA Siddur and the 
standard Nussach Ashkenaz Artscroll was the part that comes 
after Y'koom Purkan on Shabbos (tfilla le'shlom hamedina and IIRC 
mi sheberach for the IDF). In fact, IIRC, the page numbers are even 
the same with those pages numbered 580a and 580b (or whatever 
the page number is).

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 22 Feb 00, at 9:53, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:

> FWIW, when my wife worked for the Attorney General, a "frum" sociopath
> - convicted of drug dealing, etc. - insisted on not trimming his beard
> in prison. The prison did not demand he remove his beard , only that
> he crop it short for security reasons.
> 
> Now here was a guy - convicted of crimes and sentensed to 10 years in
> prison - insisting that it was "ossur" to even trim his beard, and he
> fought the state of New York on this matter.

I don't want to defend "fruhm" sociopaths but....

Have you ever ordered a double burger with an extra large order of 
french fries, chocolate mousse for dessert and a diet coke? 

'Nuff said :-) 

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On Tue, Feb 22, 2000 at 09:53:06AM -0500, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:
: FWIW, when my wife worked for the Attorney General, a "frum" sociopath - 
: convicted of drug dealing, etc. - insisted on not trimming his beard in
: prison. 

Then there's the story/legend of the two Belzer chassidim charged with
fraud and tax evasion. The Rebbe told them they may NOT appear in court
in levush, long payos and beards.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 16-Feb-00: Revi'i, Tetzaveh
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 115b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 17

I already responded to a similar letter to this one off list. Since I 
see it has been posted to the list as well, I will try to adapt my 
response.

On 21 Feb 00, at 19:37, meir shinnar wrote:

> We have been through this.  CDRG isn't a din d'oraita or d'rabbanan,
> but rather  a herem with specific rules for its application.  Minhag
> ha'olam has been to publish posthumous works and letters without
> either explicit or implicit permission, with out any opposition. 
> Therefore, any one who says that CDRG applies posthumously has to
> bring some ra'ayah why no one worried about it until RMS.  

I don't see why it should end at death. The Cherem says it is in 
effect unless "zorkon ba'ashpa." I don't see why dying R"L is the 
equivalent. BTW - without prompting, neither did my 11-year old 
son on the way home from shul this morning.

Question:
> did you ever read the letters of the chazon ish, 

Actually, I don't think I have ever read them although I have seen 
them cited. Since I don't know whether their contents are divrei 
Torah or other, I have no way of judging whether their publication 
was mutar or assur.

or the letter of the
> besht to his brother in law?  If you found a posthumous letter from a
> gadol with hiddushe torah, you wouldnt't publish it? 

Chidushei Torah are different. There is something specific (that 
someone cited last week, but I don't recall where it is) that says 
that CDRG does not apply to Chidushei Torah.

CDRG is not
> content based.  The mere content of a letter doesn't determine whether
> CDRG applies during one's lifetime, so it shouldn;t determine it
> posthumously.

Agreed. Except for divrei Torah where there is a specific heter.

> >If what you're suggesting is that we cannot call a person a rasha
> >because he violated CDRG by disclosing letters of someone who is dead
> >because CDRG in such circumstances is not an issur mefursam, ain
> >hachi nami. But that doesn't make it mutar. And if that's not what
> >you were getting at, then please explain.
> See the ET (Encyclopedia Talmudit) Because CDRG is only a herem, many
> poskim hold that one has to know that the herem exists, and that one
> is violating it, in order to be o'ver it.  I. e. there is no category
> of shogeg for this herem, and if one doesn't believe that it applies,
> then it is muttar.

I cannot believe that "mutar" (if in fact it's "mutar" and not 
"patur") means anything other than mutar after the fact and not 
mutar lechatchila.

> One can not worry about that some people will take something as a
> gnai. Clearly, there are limits. e. g., some people believe that
> either having (or not having, depending on one's orientation) a
> secular education is a gnai.  Can I therefore say that Rav Soloveichik
> went to University or that Rav Moshe did not go to University?  using
> your example of dedication as a    potential gnai, can I say that the
> Netziv was a matmid? What about reading newspapers?

Some people obviously would hold that reading newspapers or 
going to university is a gnai. But I think there's a difference between 
someone's hanhaga, which anyone who knew them well could 
know about (and I assume that at the time the Makor Baruch was 
published, it was soon enough after the Netziv's death that many 
people knew of his hanhagos, and that we are still close enough to 
the Rav's petira that saying on this list that he went to university 
would not be a chiddush to most people on this list), and their 
private correspondence which they wrote to one other person with 
no expectation that anyone else would ever see it. 

> Clearly, at somepoint, we need some objective criteria,otherwise we
> can never say anything in a public forum about anyone else, which,
> halacha lema'ase, noone holds.

If the SE intended for these things to be known, he would have 
publicized them in his lifetime. AFAIK RYBS made no secret of the 
fact that he went to university and the Netziv made no secret of the 
fact that he read newspapers. (If he had hid them under the pillow 
in his bedroom and the Mekor Baruch had publicized that fact,
it would have been different). Here the SE apparently told NO ONE 
other than the recipient(s) of these letters whether and if he held the views 
ascribed to these letters. He shared his doubts, if in fact they were doubts
with no one else. Big difference there. Holech rachil megaleh sod.

> >I'm not a posek and I'm not attempting to "pasken" as to whether this
> >would apply to RMS. Not my place. But see Chafetz Chaim Hilchos
> >Lashon Hara Clal 10 S'if 5 and Shaarei Tshuva Ma'amar 228. V'ain kan
> >makom le'haarich.
> 
> 
> DNA.

I think you should look up the mekoros before you say that. I have 
already written you off list what was intended by that comment - 
and it was certainly not what you thought it was.

In any event (assuming he is still reading this list - I will send him 
this email privately in case he is not), I had no intention of 
personally attacking RMS (here R. Marc Shapiro and not R. Meir 
Shinnar :-) although I certainly have no intention of attacking R. 
Meir Shinnar personally either) or casting aspersions on his 
integrity, and I want to publicly ask him mechila if he thinks I have 
done so. I think there IS a halachic issue here that needs to be 
dealt with, namely the inherent tension between halacha and 
honest accounts of history, and I think RMS himself recognizes 
that is a halachic issue. I am trying to deal with that issue, and the 
letters of the SE are only (in my eyes anyway) an example to be 
used for that purpose. Having not read them, I cannot form an 
intelligent opinion as to whether or not it was lashon hara to publish 
them. And while I have your attention, I would love to see the paper 
that was rejected by the OF conference :-) 

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

*********************


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