Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 399

Monday, February 28 2000

• Facing the truths of history.
• The Siegler case - It's good for the Jews!
• Re: The Siegler case - It's good for the Jews!
• TIDE and TuM
• More on Maarava
• Re: The [Name deleted] case - It's good for the Jews!
• Re: More on Maarava
• Beis Din in Civil Court
• Facing the Truths of History
• Re: Facing the Truths of History
• Re: Women as Guests
• Re: Maarava (was Re: Facing the Truths of History)
• R. Svei and YU (Was Maarava)
• Re: Women as Guests
• Re: Women as Guests
• Re: The Siegler case - It's good for the Jews!
• Facing the Truths of History
• Facing the Truths of History
• Maarava (was Re: Facing the Truths of History)
• RE: Maarava (was Re: Facing the Truths of History)

Harry Maryles, in his long post, claims that right wingers are distorting
history by taking out biographical details which do not agree with
right-wing hashkafa.  Unfortunately, the article on which he relies has been
shown to make similar types of distortions.  Thus, in a recent article in
the New York Jewish Week, Marvin Schick showed that RJJS's recounting of R.
Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz's part in starting a secular college was grossly
overstated his role.

Further, I would argue with his claim that distortions of history are
strictly a right-wing phenomenon.  Already, we are seeing two different
versions of the life and teachings of RYBS, neither of which allows for the
other side.  In the past, both Jeffrey Gurock and Rabbi Aaron
Rothkoff-Rakkefet have distorted the history of Yeshiva Torah Vodaas to
"build up" the role of YU in the early 20th century.  the list could go on.

    Sorry, but distortion is universal.

Levi Reisman

Hi,

Am I the only one who thinks that the Siegler case is good for everyone.

In a nutshell, Mrs. Siegler took a beis din to civil court.  Her husband 
obtained a heter meah rabonim

In short, why do I think this case is beneficial:

It puts the batei dinim on notice that they can't treat women as 
second-class citizens
It shows them that they can't takes bribes
It brings in outside supervision and control to ensure that justice is 
indeed being pursued.

Any thought?

Aviva

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

I whole heartedly agree.  The only problem is going to be enforcing the
judgement.  I doubt the defendants have any assets in their names, and
without the financial pinch to accompany the award, this case cannot have
the full impact it should.


----- Original Message -----
From: aviva fee <aviva613@hotmail.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 11:50 AM
Subject: The Siegler case - It's good for the Jews!


> Hi,
>
> Am I the only one who thinks that the Siegler case is good for everyone.
>
> In a nutshell, Mrs. Siegler took a beis din to civil court.  Her husband
> obtained a heter meah rabonim
>
> In short, why do I think this case is beneficial:
>
> It puts the batei dinim on notice that they can't treat women as
> second-class citizens
> It shows them that they can't takes bribes
> It brings in outside supervision and control to ensure that justice is
> indeed being pursued.
>
> Any thought?
>
> Aviva
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>

Looking back, I notice that M. Sirote referred to Hil. TALMUD Torah
not Yesodei Hatorah (thanks, RCS).  I think this must refer to
Hil. TT 1:12.  Having defined Pardes in Hil. YT 4:13 to be Maaseh
Bereshit (physics) plus Maaseh Merkavah (theology), in TT 1:12
he tells us that Pardes is considered part of Gemara (as in
dividing one's study time amongst Mikra Mishna Gemara).  So in
response to M. Sirote's initial question, it would appear to be 
a part of Torah, not just instrumental to Torah, in the opinion
of the Rambam.

This will lead us back to last year's arguments over whether or
not to say birchot haTorah over learning physics.  However, if
Rambam is right, it means that my anti-religious great-uncle
was actually learning Torah his whole life - he was a physicist
of some note.

Since everyone else defines Pardes as kabbalah, I don't know what
practical relevance this derivation has for those who don't want
to consider philosophy to be Torah.

I had heard from a rather prominent gadol  that R. Shach had actually
recommended Maarava to a sefardi boy whose parents would not have sent him
to a "chareidi" Yeshiva otherwise. Similarly, when I finished high school in
the Philadelphia Yeshiva, R. Elya Svei pushed for me to go to YU when the
alternative was a secular college in Philadelphia.

Therefore, despite the loud negative public pronouncements by R. Shach and
R. Svei respectively, neither Maarava nor YU were ever placed in cherem.
Every individual situation is evaluated differently.

Arnie Lustiger

On 28 Feb 00, at 8:50, someone wrote:

> Am I the only one who thinks that the [name deleted] case is 
good for everyone.

I don't know if you're the only one, but I don't think it's good for 
everyone. I think it's a chilul Hashem that it came to this. And lest 
anyone misunderstand, I am not neccessarily saying that the lady 
was wrong to bring the case. I haven't decided that in my own mind 
yet, and I am surely taking RSK's words to heart on that question. 
But I don't think that any situation in which a chilul Hashem results 
is good for anyone. And I'll bet that if you ask the lady in question, 
she is not happy about bringing the case either, although she may 
feel that she had no other choice.

> In a nutshell, Mrs. [Name deleted] took a beis din to civil court.  Her husband 
> obtained a heter meah rabonim

The fact that her husband obtained a heter meah rabbanim does 
not necessarily mean the Beis Din did something wrong. There are 
limited circumstances in which a heter meah rabbanim is 
appropriate. I'm not sure that this case was one of those 
circumstances, but in any event, I don't think the fact that the Beis 
Din issued (or brought about the issuance of) a heter meah 
rabbanim is the issue in this case. I would hope that the Beis Din 
that issued the heter at least forced the husband to deposit a get 
(as is required according to nearly all poskim) so that the wife is at 
least not an aguna on top of everything else.

> In short, why do I think this case is beneficial:
> 
> It puts the batei dinim on notice that they can't treat women as 
> second-class citizens

If that's what it takes to make a Beis Din "not treat women as 
second class citizens" that is a very sad comment on our society 
and our generation, and is not something we should be jumping for 
joy in the streets about. It's something we should tear kriya over.

> It shows them that they can't takes bribes

I don't think it has been proven that anyone took a bribe. While 
people may have a basis for being choshesh that someone took a 
bribe here (depending on how much credibility you give to the lady), 
and may want to try to avoid that beis din on that basis, actually 
believing that someone took a bribe could well fall into being 
mekabel lashon hara.

> It brings in outside supervision and control to ensure that justice is 
> indeed being pursued.

I think "outside supervision" of batei din - in general and without 
regard to this specific case - is not a desirable thing. I also think 
the batei din have to be mature enough to police themselves.

I'm not jumping to conclusions here in either direction. I have heard 
enough to think that there is a serious problem with Batei Din in 
America that needs to be dealt with by Gdolim. If nothing else, 
there is an image problem, and it may well be much more than an 
image problem. 

One of my good friends (who knows more about the Batei Din in 
America than I will likely ever know) came to visit this morning and 
told me something that really shocked me. He told me that the 
problem with the Batei Din in America today is that they no longer 
accept what R. Moshe and R. Henkin held to be true in the 
previous generation. R. Moshe and R. Henkin both held that it's a 
mitzva to give a get and to receive a get in a case where the 
marriage has broken down irreparably. My friend was told by a 
prominent Dayan in the States that the Dayan does not understand 
from where Rav Moshe and Rav Henkin derived such a Halacha. 
After all, he said, the Mishna in Gittin lists specific reasons why a 
man may divorce his wife. Lulei d'mistefina, I would say that 
IMVHO it seems to me that this Dayan and others who think that 
way misunderstood the Gemara on that Mishna (the last sugya in 
Gittin), and may need to rethink their views before being cholek on 
Gdolei Oilam who were mesader gittin in Europe before the likes of 
R. Chaim Ozer and R. Elchanan HY"D and other members of the 
Dor Deah. V'chaval al d'avdan.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 28 Feb 00, at 12:15, Arnold Lustiger wrote:

> I had heard from a rather prominent gadol  that R. Shach had actually
> recommended Maarava to a sefardi boy whose parents would not have sent him
> to a "chareidi" Yeshiva otherwise. Similarly, when I finished high school in
> the Philadelphia Yeshiva, R. Elya Svei pushed for me to go to YU when the
> alternative was a secular college in Philadelphia.
> 
> Therefore, despite the loud negative public pronouncements by R. Shach and
> R. Svei respectively, neither Maarava nor YU were ever placed in cherem.
> Every individual situation is evaluated differently.

Funny story about this. 

Years ago, I was speaking with Rav Dovid Refson, who is the Dean 
of Neve (or at least was then). He told me that he was trying to 
convince a girl from one of the Beis Yaakov's in the New York area 
to go to a certain seminary in Israel. She absolutely refused. "After 
all, Rav Schach put [Seminary x] in cherem," she said. So R. 
Dovid asked her where she was planning to go instead. "Barnard," 
she exclaimed. "And do you think that if Rav Schach knew what 
Barnard was he would NOT put it in cherem?" 

Cherem is a term that is tossed around too much. Except for 
cases where someone is really put into Cherem (and I have seen 
no more than a handful in my years here), I would suggest that we 
would be wise not to use it. 

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

CSherer wrote (V4#398)
"Forgive the naivete, but why is going to a zabla a problem?"

I'll quote from R' Chaim Malinowitz, as published in the winter issue
of Jewish Action,  "Pitfalls to Avoid in Obtaining a Get" - 
"If at all possible, try to have the Din Torah at an established, 
neutral beis din, one that will be there tomorrow and is 
answerable to the public.  A zabla [an ad hoc beis din where each
litigant chooses a dayan and the two pick a third], which you may 
think is advantageous to you, always takes an effort to get 
everyone together (regard-less how pressing the matter), and is 
essentially answerable to no one.
Zabla is much more costly than the established batei din.  Any 
advantage you think your borer [dayan] is gaining for you is 
matched by your spouse's borer and will turn the beis din into 
glorified to'anim [rabbinical lawyers]..."

FWIW I heard much the same from one of the Rabbonim here 
in Baltimore (Not in respect to Gittin, but in Choshen Mishpat)
when he discussed why there was a need to establish a 
community BD.

The potential for abuse is too great.

kol tuv
Sender Baruch

	I have three questions:

	RGD writes that the RW "do not deny that RSRH had a valid
approach."  Is this unambiguously correct, or is it a (or the) RW position
that RSRH's approach was valid only in his time, and is not valid today --
as RHM summarized the RW position, that "R.S.R.Hirsch's great Hashkafa of
TIDE was only a Bidieved stopgap against the encroachment of Haskala"?

	RCS writes that "Maarava graduates are accepted at nearly every fine
Yeshiva Kdosha in the country."  Are they accepted at Ponovezh?  Also, out
of curiosity, what is a "Yeshiva Kdosha"?  

Jeff Zuckerman



_______________________________________________________________________
This e-mail, including any attachments, may contain information that is
protected by law as privileged and confidential, and is transmitted for
the sole use of the intended recipient.  If you are not the intended
recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, copying
or retention of this e-mail or the information contained herein is
strictly prohibited.  If you have received this e-mail in error, please
immediately notify the sender by telephone or reply e-mail, and
permanently delete this e-mail from your computer system.  Thank you.

On 28 Feb 00, at 13:19, Zuckerman, Jeffrey I. wrote:

> 	RCS writes that "Maarava graduates are accepted at nearly every fine
> Yeshiva Kdosha in the country."  Are they accepted at Ponovezh?  

I do not know. I do know that they are accepted at Chevron, Itri, Kol 
Torah and Mir. I'm not sure that anyone these days goes directly to 
Ponovezh from Yeshiva Ktana. Why does it matter? You don't have 
to go to Ponovezh to be recognized as a Gadol haDor (although 
that is certainly one path to getting there).

Also, out
> of curiosity, what is a "Yeshiva Kdosha"?  

"Yeshiva Kdosha" is the term used to refer to "black" Yeshivas for 
post-high school age in Israel. The term has come into vogue to 
distinguish them from the Hesder Yeshivas, which are referred to 
as "Yeshiva Gdola," (which is a term used for (AFAIK) all post-high 
school Yeshivos).

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

In a message dated 2/28/00 7:57:21 AM US Central Standard Time, 
MSDratch@aol.com writes:

<< "I'm prepared to divide my beit midrash in half," Rabbi Tendler said,
     using the Hebrew for Talmudic study hall.  "My synagogue -- never."
     Orthodox women should know, he said, that in synagogue "they're welcome
     guests, but they're guests.  Their presence is not required.  That's
     not their role, to modify the service so that they can participate more
     fully."
 
 Wgatever our positions on feminism, JOFA, etc., I'm interested in your 
 reactions to "women as guests."  Thanks.   >>

Help me, please. I understand that women are not required to daven. It's 
optional. Does that make them "guests"? Is the shul a home only to those who 
are required to be there? I've heard of houses of worship referred to as 
"spiritual homes," i.e., havens, sanctuaries. Why does a shul provide a man 
seeking such sanctuary with a "home," but a woman only with a guest room, 
sort of like a Jewish Motel 6? 

Halacha is what it is. Rabbi Tendler's use of the "guest" metaphor is exactly 
that, a shorthand English expression that reveals perhaps more about the 
Rabbi's own heart and soul does it does about the law of Judaism.

David Finch

In a message dated 2/28/00 10:19:25 AM US Central Standard Time, 
cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il writes:

<< Yes, it is true that the RW (especially the Israeli RW) does not 
 encourage sending their kids there. But if at the end of the day, my 
 son can get into the same Yeshivas that someone who goes to a 
 Yeshiva Ktana can get into, and (IY"H) he will shtieg more than the 
 average Yeshiva Ktana kid once he gets to Yeshiva Kdosha 
 (because being without the distraction of secular studies will be 
 new to him), then I don't think it makes much of a difference what 
 people say about the place. My wife and I do not feel we have 
 compromised in any respect by sending him there. Now, if only 
 there was a school like this for girls.... >>

I know a number of observant Jews whose dress and lifestyle label them as RW, 
but who, before undergoing the RW conversion, went to college and graduate 
school. None of them, to my knowledge, actually regret their exposure to 
secular studies. Most of them would admit, at least privately, that secular 
studies gave them the sophistication to handle Judaism's bottomless 
abstractions with some sense of intellectual order. A few of them admit that 
they had a real good time in college, and that observant Jews who miss the 
experience lose out on a lot of fun. A handful believe that the presence of 
even the most "shocking" of secular lures at college -- sex, drugs, and 
rock-and-roll -- was beneficial to them, in part because they could shape 
their own contrasting lifestyles as a willful statement of their commitment 
to spirituality. 

I'm not exactly RW, and I wouldn't describe my own college experience as a 
willful form of anything, especially sprituality. But I admire those students 
who chose to be Jews in the most chaotic Derech Eretz of them all, the 
American college campus. I do believe college made them better persons and 
better Jews.

David Finch

--- Arnold Lustiger <alustig@erenj.com> wrote:
> when I
> finished high school in
> the Philadelphia Yeshiva, R. Elya Svei pushed for me
> to go to YU when the
> alternative was a secular college in Philadelphia.

Wouldn't it have been better if R. Svei would be more
publicly supportive of YU, instead of being so
publicly negative about it, and only making a quiet
exception in your case? Wouldn't this go a long way
towards Achdus in Klal Israel, something which is
sorely lacking today?

HM
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

In a message dated 2/28/00 1:40:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, DFinchPC@aol.com 
writes:

> Why does a shul provide a man 
>  seeking such sanctuary with a "home," but a woman only with a guest room, 
>  sort of like a Jewish Motel 6? 

Everything is relative, the women is the Akeres Habayis, the Shul is 
secondary to her role in Judaisim.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

In a message dated 2/28/00 8:57:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, MSDratch@aol.com 
writes:

<< 
     "I'm prepared to divide my beit midrash in half," Rabbi Tendler said,
     using the Hebrew for Talmudic study hall.  "My synagogue -- never."
     Orthodox women should know, he said, that in synagogue "they're welcome
     guests, but they're guests.  Their presence is not required.  That's
     not their role, to modify the service so that they can participate more
     fully."
 
 Wgatever our positions on feminism, JOFA, etc., I'm interested in your 
 reactions to "women as guests."  Thanks.  
 
 Mark Dratch  >>

I might perhaps have chosen a different wording than R' Tendler, who does 
have a talent for sound bites, but what is esentially incorrect about what he 
is saying?

Jordan   

In a message dated 2/28/00 11:50:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
aviva613@hotmail.com writes:

<< Am I the only one who thinks that the Siegler case is good for everyone.
  >>

No.

Jordan Hirsch

	1.  Because this aspect of this thread began with an assertion that
Rav Shach placed Maarava in cherem (which was a surprise to me), admission
to Ponovezh seems at least relevant.  Even graduates of the Hebrew Academy
of Greater Washington (which has been renamed the Melvin J. Berman Hebrew
Academy) -- a coed school in Silver Spring, Maryland, with lots of secular
studies -- are admitted to the other yeshivas listed by RCS.  Indeed, my own
oldest son -- a graduate of HAGWASH -- plans to learn in the Mir during the
kayitz z'man (after almost two years at Sha'alvim, and before returning to
the U.S. to begin attending YU in the Fall).

	2.  I certainly hope that members of this list are not going to
adopt the "Yeshiva Kdosha" nomenclature.  Surely we are not going to buy
into the implication that the Gush, Hakotel, Kerem b'Yavneh, Mercaz Harav
and Sha'alvim are not equal in kedusha to Chevron, Itri, Kol Torah, Mir and
Ponovezh, regardless of how much in vogue this notion might be in some
Israeli circles!  (I happen to know the Rosh HaYeshiva of Itri, and I think
he would be mortified by this suggestion.)

	3.  Out of curiosity, what evidence is there that over the past ten
years, going to Ponovezh has been a path to getting to be recognized as a
Gadol haDor?

	4.  Finally, having now mentioned the term <<Gadol haDor>>, I have a
question that has bothered me through a number of threads on Avodah
(although this has nothing whatsoever to do with RCS' post):  would it ever
be possible, and if so under what circumstances, for a gadol to cease being
a gadol, and thus lose his entitlement to whatever presumptions are accorded
a gadol?

Jeff Zuckerman

-----Original Message-----
From: Carl M. Sherer [mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il]
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 1:29 PM
To: Zuckerman, Jeffrey I.; avodah@aishdas.org
Subject: Re: Facing the Truths of History


On 28 Feb 00, at 13:19, Zuckerman, Jeffrey I. wrote:

> 	RCS writes that "Maarava graduates are accepted at nearly every fine
> Yeshiva Kdosha in the country."  Are they accepted at Ponovezh?  

I do not know. I do know that they are accepted at Chevron, Itri, Kol 
Torah and Mir. I'm not sure that anyone these days goes directly to 
Ponovezh from Yeshiva Ktana. Why does it matter? You don't have 
to go to Ponovezh to be recognized as a Gadol haDor (although 
that is certainly one path to getting there).

Also, out
> of curiosity, what is a "Yeshiva Kdosha"?  

"Yeshiva Kdosha" is the term used to refer to "black" Yeshivas for 
post-high school age in Israel. The term has come into vogue to 
distinguish them from the Hesder Yeshivas, which are referred to 
as "Yeshiva Gdola," (which is a term used for (AFAIK) all post-high 
school Yeshivos).

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.


_______________________________________________________________________
This e-mail, including any attachments, may contain information that is
protected by law as privileged and confidential, and is transmitted for
the sole use of the intended recipient.  If you are not the intended
recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, copying
or retention of this e-mail or the information contained herein is
strictly prohibited.  If you have received this e-mail in error, please
immediately notify the sender by telephone or reply e-mail, and
permanently delete this e-mail from your computer system.  Thank you.

> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 08:28:53 EST
> From: Joelirich@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Facing the Truths of History

<<Without getting back into the definitional debates>>

	You just did.

<<saying that Rabbis/Drs  Revel and Belkin "invented" TUM is like saying
that the Chofetz Chaim "invented" not speaking Lashon Hara.>>

	**If**    you assume that TuM is a time-honored path to avodas Hashem.  
As I mentioned in my post,  this is far from agreed upon here or
elsewhere.  If it is not,  but a derech which purports to be TIDE but is
in reality "an invention of Dr. Revel and Belkin"  ( I did NOT formulate
that phrase;   I quoted it from another poster),  then your analogy
becomes a tad weak.

Gershon Dubin
gershon.dubin@juno.com

> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 18:16:46 +0200
> From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
> Subject: Maarava (was Re: Facing the Truths of History)

<<Now, if only there was a school like this for girls....>>

	My information is that there are several. N'est ce pas?

Gershon Dubin
gershon.dubin@juno.com

> 
> <<Now, if only there was a school like this for girls....>>
> 
> 	My information is that there are several. N'est ce pas?

There's DuParc's for one.

Akiva



A reality check a day keeps 
the delusions at bay (Gila Atwood)

===========================
Akiva Atwood, POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274  

*********************


[ Distributed to the Avodah mailing list, digested version.                   ]
[ To post: mail to avodah@aishdas.org                                         ]
[ For back issues: mail "get avodah-digest vXX.nYYY" to majordomo@aishdas.org ]
[ or, the archive can be found at http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/              ]
[ For general requests: mail the word "help" to majordomo@aishdas.org         ]