Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 403

Wednesday, March 1 2000

• Re: Hagiographies - Humor Alert :-)
• Re: The Siegler case - It's good for the Jews!
• Re: The Siegler case - It's good for the Jews!
• Rav Svei and YU
• Learning Schedule
• Re: Hagiographies
• still more on diyukim
• Re: Facing the Truths of History
• Beit Din/Seiger Case
• Batei Din and Achdus
• Re: Rav Svei and YU
• Re: Learning Schedule
• Heoro on the Daf
• Women as Guests
• Mishna Berura reference
• Just what is Torah uMada
• Re: Rav Svei and YU
• Re[2]: Learning Schedule
• Re: Rav Svei and YU
• Re: Re[2]: Learning Schedule
• Re: still more on diyyukim
• Re[2]: More on Maarava
• Re: Re[2]: More on Maarava

On 29 Feb 00, at 14:44, DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:

> Most of us can only dream of publishing a book good enough for publishing 
> outlets like these. RYGB could write such a book, however, on any number of 
> subjects. I'd buy a bunch and give them to my friends. 

Can I be your friend? Please? :-) 

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

On Tue, 29 Feb 2000 16:37:52 PST "aviva fee" <aviva613@hotmail.com>
writes:

<<But given that we have collectively shot ourselves in the foot, this is
the logical outcome.>>

<< Am I the only one who thinks that the Siegler case is good for
everyone>>

	Whether or not it was inevitable has no bearing on whether one should be
happy at the development.

Gershon Dubin
gershon.dubin@juno.com

Whether or not it was inevitable has no bearing on whether one should be
happy at the development.


Hopefully nobody is getting a geshmack out of this.

But I think in the future, we will all looks at this incident, and say B”H 
that it happened.  It will hopefully turn out to be a purifying experience 
that while it was initially a chilul hashem, will turn into a big kiddush 
hashem.

/af



>From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
>To: aviva613@hotmail.com
>CC: gershon.dubin@juno.com, avodah@aishdas.org
>Subject: Re: The Siegler case - It's good for the Jews!
>Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 20:18:27 -0500
>
>On Tue, 29 Feb 2000 16:37:52 PST "aviva fee" <aviva613@hotmail.com>
>writes:
>
><<But given that we have collectively shot ourselves in the foot, this is
>the logical outcome.>>
>
><< Am I the only one who thinks that the Siegler case is good for
>everyone>>
>
>	Whether or not it was inevitable has no bearing on whether one should be
>happy at the development.
>
>Gershon Dubin
>gershon.dubin@juno.com

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From Shlomo B Abeles <sba@blaze.net.au>
Subject Rav Svei & YU

Carl Sherer wrote:

>>>R. Svei's hashkafas olam.....going to YU is b'dieved. The (not unjustified)
>>>fear is that if R. Svei were to say "YU is just as good as going to
>>>Brisk," talmidim who were academically capable and socially able
>>>to adopt the "Torah only" approach, would instead go to YU adn
>>>become baalebatim. And .....a gadol hador could slip away ......<<<<

See Michtav M'Eliyohu Vol 3, p355-360 where Rav Dessler zt''l expresses these
concerns and those of the Chazon Ish and Ponovitz Rov zt'l.

	My son would like to learn as much Mishnayos as possible for his Bar
Mitzvah in August 2001.  Does anyone have a formal schedule based on X
mishnayos per day leading to finishing Y sdorim in Z time?

	The OU Luach Limud is very good,  but a mishna a day. Does anyone know
the length of their cycle?

Gershon Dubin
gershon.dubin@juno.com

--- "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
> I think Klal Yisroel would benefit greatly from more
> hagiographies, on all
> sides of all divides. (That was a hook to get you to
> read this post.)
> 
> The problem is that there is no real funding for any
> publishing ventures -
> hagiographical or biographical, scholarly or popular
> - available. The
> overwhelming majority of Jewish publishing - save
> for a select few funded by
> Artscroll - is of the nature of the secular "vanity
> press." This afflicts me
> personally, as I would love to research and write
> more, but can only pursue
> such endeavors as a very small sideline activity, as
> they do not produce any
> income, and, aderaba, require personal expenditure.

That's too bad. I would love to see more of the above.
But I know that a bio of R. Mordechai Rogov ZTL is
being written by R. Ben Zion Rand.  Who is funding
this and how did the whole project start?  Perhaps you
could follow the same route.

HM
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> Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 23:22:52 +0200
> From: D & E-H Bannett <dbnet@barak-online.net>
> Subject: kaddish and diyyukim
 
> Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 23:22:49 +0200
> From: D & E-H Bannett <dbnet@barak-online.net>
> Subject: still more on diyyukim

<<In tefila one hears those who think they are being medakdek carefully 
enunciate, "Eloheiyy Yitzhak vEiloheiyy Ya'akov".  In kri'at HaTorah we
hear "beneiyy Yisrael". >>

	Firstly,  let me thank R'  "D." (I don't know your first name) for a
characteristically thorough and interesting analysis.   And wish him a
refuah sheleima.

	On this "diyuk"  I think the error is in stressing the final yud,  not
in being mafrid.  Even if you didn't stress the yud,  it would be
difficult to say the two words together and not slur them.  I think,  but
am not sure, that you are essentially saying the same thing.

	An excellent presentation of these rules is found in a small paperback
book entitled "The Glory of the Torah Reading" (letiferes hakeriah) by
Maurice Gellis.  It is hard to find these days,  but worth the effort; 
very kind to dikduk dummies like me.

Gershon Dubin
gershon.dubin@juno.com

--- Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com> wrote:
> 	My understanding is that nobody is accepted to
> Ponovezh if they have any
> secular education. This includes bogrim,  Americans,
>  baalei teshuva, 
> etc. 

This is not true. The son of a very close friend of
mine who most definately has a high school (HS)
diploma from an American Yeshiva high school, spent
two years post HS in Pthe Ponevitch BM.  (He is now a
Shaul UMeishav at Yeshivat HaKotel.)  About forty
years ago, R. Mordecai Goodman who had at least a HS
diploma learned at Ponevitch. (He then came back to
the states to get his PhD in Math.)

HM
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Sorry for the length, but I had to include quotes
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 15:42:02 -0500
> From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
> Subject: The Siegler case - It's good for the Jews!
> 
> From: aviva fee <aviva613@hotmail.com>
> To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 11:50 AM
> Subject: The Siegler case - It's good for the Jews!
> 
> << Am I the only one who thinks that the Siegler case is good for
> everyone.>>
> 
> 	While exposing problems with batei din may have its 
> advantages,  it is  hard to imagine any good coming of this being
plastered all over the
> secular newspapers,  or batei din being regulated by the government. 
>  Not
> to mention the chillul Hashem involved.  I don't advocate ignoring 
> the
> problems,  but this is yatza secharo behefsedo.
> 
> Gershon
> gershon.dubin@juno.com
> 
Also, since when is circumstantial evidence (especially with respect to
alleged bribery/family ties) something which we base torah decisions on? 



> 
> As I see it, the question is which is more evil: 
> 
> 1- The chillul Hashem of having our dirty laundry exposed to the 
> public plus
>    the threat that batei din will be hobbled in doing their job, or
>    
> 2- The chillul Hashem of this going on in private, thereby 
> alienating Jews
>    from O, and letting numerous batei din continue not doing their 
> job AND
>    hurting more people along the way.
> 
> Neither is "good news for the Jews". However, if we have to choose 
> evils...
> 
> - -mi
> 
Batei Din issues are by definition private -- furthermore Batei Din are
empowered not to deal with certain cases which might have significant
public or civil ramifications for a 
particular community -- the Crown Heights Beis Din situation vis-a-vis
Oholei Torah as few years back comes to mind

> ------------------------------

If there was ever a situation where the need for
Achdus is merited this is it.  All Orthodox Batei Din
should have a singular regulating body with some
muscle to it. It shouldn't matter under whose
auspicies a Beis Din is, whether it is the RCA or the
OU or the Agudah, or even Satmar.  The Sigler case
clearly  demonstrates this need. But, unfortunately,
the way Klal Israel is heading, this just "aint a
gonna happen". Factionally speaking,there is too much
"me"ism and not enough "we"ism.  Too many segments of
Klal Israel see themselves as the only ones to have
the real conduit to HaShem, to the exclusion of all
others, and therefore will never join with one of the
"lesser" groups and their Battei Din.

To qoute the great Rodney King, "Can't we all just get
along?"

HM
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On 1 Mar 00, at 13:20, SBA wrote:

> >From Shlomo B Abeles <sba@blaze.net.au>
> Subject Rav Svei & YU
> 
> Carl Sherer wrote:
> 
> >>>R. Svei's hashkafas olam.....going to YU is b'dieved. The (not unjustified)
> >>>fear is that if R. Svei were to say "YU is just as good as going to
> >>>Brisk," talmidim who were academically capable and socially able
> >>>to adopt the "Torah only" approach, would instead go to YU adn
> >>>become baalebatim. And .....a gadol hador could slip away ......<<<<
> 
> See Michtav M'Eliyohu Vol 3, p355-360 where Rav Dessler zt''l expresses these
> concerns and those of the Chazon Ish and Ponovitz Rov zt'l.

I actually summarized that MME on this list about a month or two 
ago after RYGB pointed it out to me. Where is the Chazon Ish or 
the Ponovezher Rov's views written down?

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

On 29 Feb 00, at 21:52, Gershon Dubin wrote:

> 	My son would like to learn as much Mishnayos as possible for his Bar
> Mitzvah in August 2001.  Does anyone have a formal schedule based on X
> mishnayos per day leading to finishing Y sdorim in Z time?
> 
> 	The OU Luach Limud is very good,  but a mishna a day. Does anyone know
> the length of their cycle?

Two mishnayos a day takes about six years, three mishnayos a 
day takes about four (for all of Shas).

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

I am catching up and Baruch Hashem did Daf 90 today. Anyone 
else see the Kovetz Heoros at the beginning of Siman 69? Anyone 
think it could apply to making aliya today?

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among all the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

mailto: cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il

On reflection, the analogy is apt.

I happen to go to shul on weekday mornings, on my way to work.  I usually
catch Hazarat HaShatz and Bircat Kohanim, and I daven "catch up", more or
less what I would daven at home. Am I a guest?  Perhaps that is a good way
to describe what I am.  On the one hand, I answer Amein and Yehey Shmey
Rabba, just like anybody else in shul.  On the other hand, I don't come
because I have to, I come because it's a better place to daven than my
living room or my office.  And, I don't usually stay for Tahanun.

So maybe I am a guest.  At least a welcome guest, not an intruder nor a
trespasser.

What about shul on Shabbat?  I would say that from the point of view of
davening, women feel that they can either come or not come.  From the social
function of shul as being a gathering place for the community, I would say
that most women feel as hosts, not as guests.  But that is something else
entirely.

-Kira

There is a famous Yerushalmi says that Hashem will take a person to task for 
not enjoying the pleasures of this world. I know I saw the Mishnah Berurah 
bring this Yerushalmi, but now I can't find where. Could anybody who 
remembers where, or if they have any of the indexes of the Mishnah Berurah, 
please let me know where he brings it down. Thanx.
Toby Rubinson

I cannot define it so much as illustrate it.

Here is what Torah UMada means to me:

1) When R. Moshe consults biologist of other scientists in order to better 
understand the mechanics of an issue, that is one case.  Torah and psak peering 
into mada to understand what is going on.

2) (this is also TIDE).  when my frum dentist gives me an antibiotic and I ask 
can I take this on tisha b'av; he immediately consults his rav and asks him a 
sh'eiloh.

3) while being a professional or a scientist and being shomer mitzvos - as in 
the Association of Orthodox Jewish Scientists

4) Seeing the Yad Hashem in the various aspects of the brio.  EG looking into a 
forest and saying ma noeh ilan zeh (but not while learning Torah!)

5) Believing that IF Torah is indeed emes, then it should be independently 
verifiable by any objective investigator.  therefore there is a presumption of 
harmony between Torah and science and that the 19th century kulturkampf between 
religion and science was an aberration.  Perhaps because 19th century religion 
was too narrow and perhaps because 19th century science was too iconoclastic.

6) Believing that Torah is strong enough to hold its own and that learning 
secular culture will not necessarily cause one to run away from Torah and to 
become Reform.

7) That our mission as Jews to be or lagoyim included a certain level of 
universalism; that we are not ONLY particularists.  The first paragraph of 
Aleinu shows our particularism, the 2nd shows our universalism.  There is a 
balance.  We neither assimilate into the culture nor do we hide behind a wall 
and avoid it.  We come from an I'M OK YOU'RE OK position of seeing Torah as not 
only valid but helpful to society at large.  They need us and our wisdom and 
middos.  We as a mamleches kohanim, have to be able to communicated and to 
influence the world for the sake of Tikkun Olam.

8) Dr. MS Feldblum said that the shiv'im leshonos needed to serve on the 
sanhedrin could be seen as 70 disciplines, eg biology, engineering, philosophy, 
music, literature, chemistry, astronomy.  That Gedolim NEED to be conversant in 
the entire spectrum of the universe to arrive at valid conclusions.  Not experts
perhaps, but conversant.  Certainly the Gra saw value in Euclidean geometry.

What it does not mean:

A) Equating Torah with Science

B) making a science out of torah

C) Mishmashing Torah studies with science

D) Saying that a scientist is just as big a gadol as a Torah Gadol

E) requiring everyone to know science to be a good Jew

Nuff for now

Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


Micha wrote:

<<TuM does NOT mean using mada as a way to understand Torah. At least, it 
doesn't mean that to the majority who stand under its banner.>>

	I am really interested in what TuM does mean!

Gershon Dubin
gershon.dubin@juno.com

Didn't RSR Hirsch suggest a 2-track model oen for the Yaakovs and one for the 
Eisavs?

Richard_wolpoe@ibi.com


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Rav Svei and YU 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    2/29/2000 9:08 PM


From Shlomo B Abeles <sba@blaze.net.au> 
Subject Rav Svei & YU

Carl Sherer wrote:

>>>R. Svei's hashkafas olam.....going to YU is b'dieved. The (not unjustified) 
>>>fear is that if R. Svei were to say "YU is just as good as going to 
>>>Brisk," talmidim who were academically capable and socially able
>>>to adopt the "Torah only" approach, would instead go to YU adn 
>>>become baalebatim. And .....a gadol hador could slip away ......<<<<

See Michtav M'Eliyohu Vol 3, p355-360 where Rav Dessler zt''l expresses these 
concerns and those of the Chazon Ish and Ponovitz Rov zt'l.

I know of a 2-a-day cyle of Mishna yomit (along with halahc yomit)

is there a worldwide 3 a day schedule?

richard_wolpoe@ibi.com


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


Two mishnayos a day takes about six years, three mishnayos a 
day takes about four (for all of Shas).

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son, 
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel. 
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

On 1 Mar 00, at 9:58, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:

> Didn't RSR Hirsch suggest a 2-track model oen for the Yaakovs and one
> for the Eisavs?

That's how I would understand his comments on Eisav. But as I 
think we went through on this list not too long ago, Rav Dessler 
had a very different hashkafa.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 1 Mar 00, at 10:02, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:

> I know of a 2-a-day cyle of Mishna yomit (along with halahc yomit)
> 
> is there a worldwide 3 a day schedule?

Two a day is Mishna Yomit. Three a day is - as far as I know - 
something that the Aguda started in the States for boys to start 
learning Mishnayos when they turn 9 and finish all of Shas by their 
Bar Mitzvas.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

In Avodah 4#402, DBarnett posted the no-dagesh-kal rule:
> "The letters AVY"H (at the end of a word) are followed by rafah (in the
initial beged-kefet of the succeeding word) except for Mapik, Mafsik, and
Atei me-rachik." <
A small note: even this rule has its exceptions, e.g. "mi komoacha
ne'dar bakodesh" (when we would expect "chomoacha").  See
the comments of Minchas Shai.

As DBarnett said in an earlier post, "Sometimes exceptions
are the rule."

All the best from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ

There was one fellow from Hartford at YU who decide to transfer to the 
University of Connecticut.  Another fellow - who while at YU himself was 
more-or-less anti-YU - defended his decision, while I disagreed with it.

From what I've seen, there are some (many?) all-or-nothing purists who prefer to
see people in clearly defined non-Torah institutions rather than attend hybrids 
such as YU (or Bar-Ilan).

richard_wolpoe@ibi.com

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: More on Maarava 

Funny story about this. 

Years ago, I was speaking with Rav Dovid Refson, who is the Dean of 
Neve (or at least was then). He told me that he was trying to 
convince a girl from one of the Beis Yaakov's in the New York area 
to go to a certain seminary in Israel. She absolutely refused. "After 
all, Rav Schach put [Seminary x] in cherem," she said. So R. 
Dovid asked her where she was planning to go instead. "Barnard," 
she exclaimed. "And do you think that if Rav Schach knew what 
Barnard was he would NOT put it in cherem?" 


-- Carl

In a message dated 3/1/00 1:05:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

<< 
 From what I've seen, there are some (many?) all-or-nothing purists who 
prefer to
 see people in clearly defined non-Torah institutions rather than attend 
hybrids 
 such as YU (or Bar-Ilan).
 
 richard_wolpoe@ibi.com >>
One man's hybrid is another man's holistic.

A "true believer" would take exactly the position you outline since the YU 
approach "claims" to be  amita shel tora wheras non-tora approach is not a 
"threat" in this category.

Kol Tuv
Joel Rich

*********************


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