Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 449

Monday, March 20 2000

• Re: How can we......
• berachah at the seder
• Bnei Brak
• Esther: repetitions
• Re: ve-laharog
• Re: Takkanos Redux
• Re: Maror
• Re[2]: How can we......
• RE: dikduk question
• borim
• Burim
• Re: Shmuel, Agag, Rachmanus
• Re: Bnei Brak
• Re[2]: How can we condemn the church if we do not live up to
• (Fwd) Tefillin Found - Hashovas Aveidah
• Re: Sheker VeChazav
• RE: Mishpat Ivri, and the Best Place to Spend Purim

On 19 Mar 00, at 19:37, Gershon Dubin wrote:

> > Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 22:32:16 +0200
> > From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
> > Subject: Re: How can we condemn the church if we do not live up to 
> > at least the same standard
> 
> <<We all remember the saying, (those of us over 40), if you are not part
> of the solution, you are part of the problem.
> 
> More nahrishkeit of the 60's. Where are all those people today?>>
> 
> 	The author of that much overused slogan was none other than Eldridge
> Cleaver.  For those of us over 40,   that name does not evoke great awe
> and respect for his philosophy.  Rachmana litzlan.

Thanks. I'd forgotten who said it. It's a sad state of affairs when 
fruhm Jews are citing black panthers as determinative sources for 
how we should act. Let's hope the message of Purim gets through 
this year.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

I was discussing with our local rabbi a problem of making a beracha at
a second seder for Israelis coming to Russia to help.
He said that one could not make a beracha on a safek yomtov even if
both days were safek.

That lead to the question of what would have been done in Bavel in the
days of the second Temple wherever the messengers did not reach.
Did that mean they made a seder on both possibilities both without
any berachot because each day was a safek?
What about tefillot for yomtov?

Eli Turkel

From Shlomo B Abeles
>Harry Maryles wrote:
>Unfortunately, the best (worst?) example of how
>Charedim would fare as leaders is ...Bnei Brak ......City services
>are heavily (but not completely) subsidised by the state.

Have you heard of the hundreds of millions of dollars that
the Kibbutzim are subsidised?And they don't have "notorious"
large families  as the Charedim do, where often the father is
Toroso Umnoso, but rather it's one child and a dog. These
kibbutzniks have often  been then for a few generations -
with the married children getting free or almost free accomodation,
yet they still cannot make a go of it.


>..Much of the population of Bnei Brak are full time
>Avreichim .....where money is distributed in the form
>of WELFARE instead of money beingdistributed back
>to the Municipality in the form of TAXES........ The same
>is true in other Charedi Communties like Kiryat Sefer, a brand new
>Charedi municipality and what a mess!

Well, at least they save the government a fortune - by not needing
drug rehabilitaion centres.And remember - 99% of Israeli jailbirds
are non-Charedi. Look at the savings they have there.Also, the government
probably pays out more in welfare payments to the families of  both jail inmates
and drug addicts, than in does to Bnei Brak families. So let's not complain
about the Shekels needed for Bnei Brak garbage collectors!

SBA

<There are different opinions as to which is the correct version. Therefore
there is a custom to say both. This was done in the beis medrash of the
Chasam Sofer, and his megillah had both written (l'harog normally, and
v'l'harog between the lines; bifneihem normally and a lamed above it).
[From a note by the Lubavitcher Rebbe in Sefer HaMinhagim]. I have seen
some megillahs with a vov and some without; some with a beis and some
with a lamed. a freilichen purim Josh Hoexter > From: ainspan <ainspan@watson.ibm.com>
> Subject: "l'hashmid v'laharog ulabeid" > What's the source for the
minhag of saying this phrase twice > with and without vav (also "v'ish
lo amad lifneihem" - bifneihem)? >
there should be no doubt at all as to what the “correct” girso’os are.
 Which are “v’laharog” and “lifneihem” which is the text in the tiberian
siforim hamiduyoqim. The poster asked from where/when did this minhog
of a repeated public reading start – and the answer is very very late.
Probably only in the 20th century.  (for those interested in more detail,
I would commend two more general articles which also  include a more
detailed look at the megiloh girsoh problem -  breuer’s “miqro’os she’ain
lohem hachreia”, migodim, 1990,  and penkower’s “zeicher amoleiq: bi’chomeish
oa bi'sheish niqudos?” in iyunei miqroh u’foroshonus: vol 4, 1997)  

One first starts to hear of girsoh doubts engendering a private, quiet
repetition of the doubtful word in circles associated with talmidim of
the chasam sofeir (as noted by a previous poster) and the gra.  penkower
is rather persuaded that while the gra was doubtful of the girsoh, the
minhog to repeat – though only privately – was initiated first in 1814-1815,
by his main talmid, r. chaim voloshiner. Amongst the students of the
chasam sofeir, penkower suggests (based on differences in dated revisions
of a published work by one of the CS’s grand-talmidim) that the CS’s
minhog of a quiet repetition was publicized only after 1835. In any event,
there are no reports of any public reading which repeated the “doubtful”
words.  Such a claim concerning the CS’s habit was first made in the
latter part of the century (chut  ha’mishulosh by CS’s grandson).   In
 testimony from both the earlier and latter part of the 19th, it was
emphasized that the CS specifically did not want this minhog instituted
as a public re-reading since he did not wish shuls to change from their
(single) traditional reading minhog.   It was probably not till the beginning
of the 20th then that a public re-reading got off the ground as CS’s
minhog (and perhaps the voloshiner) gained ever more public currency.
 The irony of the whole thing kind of jumps out at you.  Not only is
this a minhog with no firm tradtion behind it, but the source on which
it was ostensibly based specifically did not want it instituted.  

As well, the halochic imperatives for a public re-reading  are somewhere
south of obscure.  After all, the gimoroh (yirushalmi, megiloh 2) specifically
comments that the megiloh will be tolerant of mistakes, especially where
they don’t change the meaning as in these cases (the example given in
the gimoroh was another “doubtful” girsoh in the megiloh which, however,
most q’’hilos do not repeat- “yihudim” vs “yihudi’im”)- R. shachter’s
nefesh harav also notes that RYBS also cited the lack of any real halachic
requirement to repeat.

r. breuer in particular is exercised by the introduction of these “new”
minhogim to repeat the doubtful words, and doubly so for the minhog of
repeating the zeicher-zecher pair as such innovations actually serve
only to cast doubt –in cases where none ever really existed – on the
integrity of the tanach.  he essentially suggests that the harm implicit
in these chadoshim mi’qorove bo’u minhogim should play a more weighty
role than some inexplicable lust to yotzeh all possible de’os (needless
to say, i paraphrase), especially in these where it is easy to demonstrate
the superiority of the traditional (pre-20th century) minhog..   

Mechy Frankel				W: (703) 588-7424
frankemj@acq.osd.mil			H: (301)  593-3949
michael.frankel@dtra.mil 




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:> Burim Sameach

: Ein Bur Yerei Cheit :-)

Chayav adam/inish livsumei biFurei ad dilo yada...

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 19-Mar-00: Cohen, Tzav
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 11b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 22

Mi shei'no melamed bno omnus, melmdo listus...

Is any further takkanah needed?

Richard_wolpoe@ibi.com


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


You cannot preclude some takkanos on the grounds that chazal did not so 
legislate, and at the same time support new takkanot because the latter group 
are directed against those not like you.  Well, you can, but it detracts from 
the intellectual integrity of your argument (which also somehow presumes that 
the casket-making industry was run by volunteers).

Whatever.  There's no benefit to rehashing this one.

Meyer

Origin to this: Aany Litvak who grinds their own horseradish will cry like a 
weakling!

Richard_wolpoe@ibi.com


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
 I was taught that ground up horse-radish was fo r 
weaklings and Litvaks.

who says it vs. what is said redux?

Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: How can we...... 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    3/19/2000 8:49 PM


In a message dated 3/19/00 7:43:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
gershon.dubin@juno.com writes:

<< 
 <<We all remember the saying, (those of us over 40), if you are not part 
 of the solution, you are part of the problem.

 More nahrishkeit of the 60's. Where are all those people today?>>

    The author of that much overused slogan was none other than Eldridge
 Cleaver.  For those of us over 40,   that name does not evoke great awe 
 and respect for his philosophy.  Rachmana litzlan.

 Gershon >>
Take the truth no matter where it comes from (isn't this expression the same 
lesson as why did Moshe Rabbeinu tell am Yisrael that they had committed a 
great sin by the egel after he and bnai levi killed the sinners?  Because the 
remainder committed a passive sin by allowing the situation to develop -they 
were part of the problem by not being part of the solution)

Have a meaningful and easy fast,
Joel Rich

I am no expert but...

I once heard that lamed-heh kal verbs (like asah) retain the mileil, but
lamed-heh piels behave like most other verbs.

I cannot think of any other examples off the top of my head.

Moshe
____________________________________________
Subject: dikduk question

Can any of the dikduk experts answer this question?
When the vav hahipuch is used, the second person singular past tense
changes from mil'ayl to mil'ra: v'a-hav-ta'  instead of a-hav'-ta, etc,
unless the word is at an esnachta or sof posuk, as in 
v'-a-chal-ta'  v'sa-va'-ta uvay-rach-ta', etc. There seems to be one
exception: v'a-si'sa, which is always mil'ayl.  It is not the absence of
the dagesh in the tav, as witness v'tzi-pi-sa'.  Any explanation?
Sadya N. Targum

va'yaritsuhu min habur ... vayilbash oto bigdei sheis vayasem r'vid hazahav 
al tsavaro,
vayarkeiv oto bimeirkevet hameishneh asher lo ...
Happy Purim!
Leah Greenstein

(Please disregard earlier erroneous post)
>> Burim Sameach

>Ein Bur Yerei Cheit :-)

va'yaritsuhu min habur ... vayilbash oto bigdei sheis vayasem r'vid hazahav 
al tsavaro,
vayarkeiv oto bimeirkevet hameishneh asher lo ...
Happy Purim!
Leah Greenstein

RM Berger wrote:

>>R' Aharon Lichtenstein, as paraphrased in Gush's email, was that he wasn't 
punished for saving Agag, but for killing the rest of Amaleik. By saving Agag he
showed that he wasn't killing them to perform the mitzvah of mechiyas 
zeicher/zecher Amaleik. In which case, the killing that he did do lacked moral 
justification. Which is what ties it to the slaughter at Nov.>>

The Chafetz Chaim (Al HaTorah, haftarah parshas zachor) has the same idea.

--- SBA <sba@blaze.net.au> wrote:
> From Shlomo B Abeles

> 
> Have you heard of the hundreds of millions of
> dollars that
> the Kibbutzim are subsidised?

Kibbutzim in Israel have been a dismal failure.  Are
there any left?  Certainly they are subsidized.  Money
wasted if you ask me. Kibutzim are a form of communism
which has self-destructed and has been the most
destructive of forces to Torah Judaism.  When any one
ones to point to an extreme example of Anti-Torah
values it is the Kibbutz.  Perhaps the founding
fathers of Modern Zionism whose ideals were rooted in
the physical development of the country could operate
in such a system successfully but their children are
runningf away in droves not only from the "kibutz" but
even from the country.  Judasim had long ago been
abandoned by the fathers as archaic and irrelavent.
Most of these children of the Kibbutz can't wait to
leave the country so that they can be K'Chol HaGoyim,
and participate int the depravity prevalent in some of
the more degenerate parts of society. As R. Aharon
Feldman said, these people are no more than Hebrew
speaking gentiles. I personally believe that most of
them are beyond Kiruv. However, all this being said,
two wrongs don't make a right.


> 99% of
> Israeli jailbirds
> are non-Charedi. Look at the savings they have
> there.Also, the government
> probably pays out more in welfare payments to the
> families of  both jail inmates
> and drug addicts, than in does to Bnei Brak
> families. So let's not complain
> about the Shekels needed for Bnei Brak garbage
> collectors!

That's nice.  There are less Charedim in jail.  Whew!
I thoufht for sure that Israeli prisons were full of
nothing but Charedim. But this has nothing to do with
garbage collection in Bnei Brak. Too often there are
strikes by municipal workers there and the is NO
garbage pick up at all for weeks at a time.  The
government subsidies aren't enough. You need to
generate a certain amount of revenue from your own
city tax base. Otherwise your share of the tax burdon
is unequal to the rest of society's. Why should Bnei
Brak get a larger share of the National tax revenue
than, say, Ramat Aviv? Equity demands that the
greatest contributors to the tax pie should be the
greatest recipients.

HM

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im ein ani li mi li!

uch'sheani leatzmi - ma ani?

richard_wolpoe@ibi.com


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
 There are at least 200 families in my *neighborhood* who have 
trouble putting food on the table. I am going to worry about them 
before I worry about Sudan or Afghanistan or Bosnia or anyplace 
else, which is not my people 
and where my potential impact is minimal. Aniyei ircha kodmim.



-- Carl (over 40 thank you)

------- Forwarded message follows -------
Date sent:      	Mon, 20 Mar 2000 10:12:19 -0500
From:           	"Jeff Geizhals"
Subject:        	Tefillin Found - Hashovas Aveidah
To:             	

About 3 months ago a pair of tefillin was found in a Manhattan 
subway.
Ads were put into the Jewish Press, Yated, etc. but with no 
results. I
was asked to try and spread the word on the net. Please forward 
this
to as many people as possible and post it freely.

The tefillin bag had the name "Moshe Yitzchak HaLevi Frank"
embroidered on it.

Anyone claiming it should respond to me at 212-632-6376 or
jeffo@usa.net

Thanks and tizku lemitzvos!


------- End of forwarded message -------
Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

Sheker VeChazav... what a colorful expression. I use
it all the time myself. It really emotes.

--- Carl and Adina Sherer <sherer@actcom.co.il> wrote:
> I will leave it to someone from Bnei Brak to respond
> to the 
> nahrishkeit posted here about that city, and to
> someone from 
> Kiryat Sefer to respond to the nahrishkeit that was
> posted about 
> that city.

I did not make any of this up.  There are published
statistics which I read that support this
"nareshkeit".

> Suffice it to say that the cities that
> are going broke these 
> days are Beit Shean, Sderot, Netivot and so on. Most
> of those 
> cities have barely a Charedi (and certainly barely
> an Ashkenazi 
> Charedi) in site. 

Is there an implication in your dichotomy?

> What they do have is corruption of
> the highest 
> order, which has nothing to do whatsoever with
> Charedim.

Agreed.  But two wrongs don't make a right.


> 
> I must, however respond to the SHEKER, KAZAV 

There's that colorful phrase again.

> AND
> LASHON 
> HARA which someone has the chutzpa to speak about 
> YERUSHALAYIM IR HAKODESH. 
> 
> On 19 Mar 00, at 14:10, someone wrote:

That "someone" was me, HM!

> 
> > many Datim are leaving 
> >Jerusalem
> >Jobs are found elsewhwere. 

> 
> I would suggest that you take a walk through the
> industrial parks in 
> Malcha and Har Chotzvim before you make a statement
> like that. 
> Last week, a company called Tradeum was bought up by
> 
> Verticalnet for $500 million. That company is
> located in 
> Yerushalayim Ir HaKodesh. 

As I stated, Jerusalem still has a tax base. If there
is a growing trend in Jerusalem toward attracting
business and generating jobs, then I'm gratified to
hear it.  I was merely  questioning if that is indeed
the case. The Intel story, (despite your assertions
about the reasons for their reloction, which may be
part of the reason they left) is as I stated it.  It
was published in a national Israeli newsmagazine.  The
statements about Intel breaking up a potentially
growing Frum neighborhood are true.  I remember
reading quotes by Charedi members of city hall citing
this as the primary reasons for all the protests
against Intel at the time. Wouldn't it have an econmic
boon to Jerusalem to have computer giant Intel located
there?  Is  Holocaust survivor and Intel founder/CEO,
Andy Grove such a Rasha? I can't believe an
arrangement couldn't be worked out whereby there would
be no Chilul Shabbos. You may be suprised to learn
that I am a outpoken critic of Chilul Shabbos. I hold
that Chilul Shabbos is Assur.

> 
> But even if all of this was not true - isn't our
> goal in life supposed to 
> be learning Torah? Isn't Torah paramount? Baruch
> Hashem we have 
> Zevulun's to support the Yissochor's in
> Yerushalayim. But if chas 
> v'shalom we didn't, would that be a reason to
> condemn?

Yes, if it put's an unfair burdon on the rest of
society and creates a Chilul Hashem in the proccess.
Zevuluns have to be voluntary. Do we really need to
see the only shomer shabbos city in Israel become a
garbage dump?

> Do you suggest that because of the
> Almighty 
> Buck we should bring Chilul Shabbos to Yerushalayim
> and destroy 
> the Holy character of our city? Who are you to
> dictate that from 
> Chicago?

I am the (in)famous HM, from Chicago. And am four
square opposed to Chilul Shabbos. (see above)


> 
> > the now powerful Charedi element in the city's
> > government has allowed some dwellings to be built
> out
> > of cheaper materials. 

> First of all, this is total and complete sheker. The
> only place I know 
> of where housing has been built out of anything
> other than 
> Jerusalem Stone in the last ten years was extensions
> to the 
> Shmuel HaNavi public housing 

Sheker or not Sheker... You be then judge.

Again,  The statement that the physical beauty of
Jerusalem Stone is to be sacrificed in the name of
affordable housing for Avrechim (or words to that
effect) was a quote I read in the name of one opf the
Charedi members of city hall.  I believe it was R.
Meir Porush.  So If what I said was Sheker VeChazeh,
so was  R. Meir Porush's (I believe) statement.


> Second of all, is a Jew meant to judge things on
> their physical 
> beauty? Is that the values we are taught and that we
> are supposed 
> to teach our children? How about all the Gemaras
> about people 
> who were ugly on the outside but beautiful on the
> inside? If this is 
> the value set of the Galus - physical beauty and
> wealth - you can 
> keep it as far as I am concerned. DON'T bring it
> here.

Of course the real beauty of Jerusalem is it's Torah. 
My guess would be that there has never been as much
Torah learning in the last 2000 years as there is now.
This is it's spiritual beauty whiach is paramount. 

But, who says that you can't enjoy physical beauty?
Where is it written that it doesn't matter what
Jerusalem looks like.  Would you prefer it looked like
a slum, as long as there was Torah there? "DON'T bring
it here"...you say?  You may prefer to live in a world
without beauty, but don't condemn the rest of
Jerusalem to it.

> 
> As to the final swipes about Teddy Kollek, I'm not
> even going to get 
> into that.

Why bring it up then?

 If it's possible, the poster knows even
> less about his 
> subject there than he does about the rest of his
> anti-Charedi vitriol.

Please enlighten me.
> 
> I would suggest that the poster get his facts
> straight before he 
> posts this kind of diatribe again. 

Thank you. I will keep this in mind.

> I would also
> suggest that Chicago 
> is a lousy place to keep track of the goings on in
> Yerushalayim.

Don't say Chicago is a lousy place.  I love Chicago.

HM

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--- Akiva Atwood <atwood@netvision.net.il> wrote:
> > Intel was forced to build it's plant elsewhere in
> > Israel because of Charedi pressure. Intel intended
> to
> >
> 
> Actually, Intel was forced to move, in large part,
> due to *environmentalist*
> pressure.

Really?  See Carl's warm and fuzzy post about what he
says the reason is.  Perhaps you are both right. 
Perhaps we are all right.

HM

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