Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 454

Tuesday, March 21 2000

• Am Mifuzar Umiforad Bein Ha'amim
• Re: Benei Beraq
• Re: How can we condemn etc.
• Re: How can we condemn the church if we do not live up to at least the same s...
• Re: How can we condemn etc.
• Re: How can we condemn the church if we do not live up to at least the same s...
• Re: How can we condemn the church if we do not live up to at least the same s...
• RE: How can we condemn the church if we do not live up to at leastthe same s...
• Re: How can we condemn the church if we do not live up to at leastthe same s...
• Re: Takanos Redux
• Takkanot Threedux
• Re: Bnei Brak
• Re[2]: Diyyuk Redux
• Re: Megilas Esther & Sheimos/Tasmania
• Re[2]: how can we condemn etc.
• Re: Takanos Redux
• Re: wedding takanos
• Takanos Redux
• Re[3]: Diyyuk Redux
• Re[2]: How can we condemn etc.

DUDES, it's Purim lighten up!

What's all this fighting about? We can discuss the policies of the Chareidi 
community another time. And we can certainly find a better time than Purim 
to defend teh ever so honorable Pius.

Wishing everybody a happy (en simcha elah biyayin) purim and shushan purim,

Moshe
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From Shlomo B Abeles
>Harry Maryles wrote:
>Unfortunately, the best (worst?) example of how
>Charedim would fare as leaders is ...Bnei Brak ......City services
>are heavily (but not completely) subsidised by the state.

    This is simply not true. Benei Beraq is only one of the 
many municipalties is Israel that receives state aid. Figures
have been released showing that the per capita aid to Benei Beraq
is not excessive compared to other cities, some of which are much
richer than Benei Beraq. Many cities receive even more aid than Benei
Beraq, but this receives no publicity because no one objects

>..Much of the population of Bnei Brak are full time
>Avreichim .....where money is distributed in the form
>of WELFARE instead of money beingdistributed back
>to the Municipality in the form of TAXES........ 

    Benei Beraq collects taxes no less than like other cities, 
and its tax revenues have actually been increasing over the past
few years dues to the efforts of the new administration headed by
Mayor Rabbi Mordekhai Karelitz.

    Also, please note that Benei Beraq receives distinction year after
year as the city having both the highest poverty rate and the lowest
crime rate in Israel. Benei Beraq also houses some of the finest
charity and volunteer organizations in the country for helping the ill
and disadvantaged all over the country, whether religious or
not. Among these can be mentioned Ezer Mizion and Ezra la-Marpe, whose
director, R. Elimelekh Firer, received the Israel prize a few years ago
for his humanitarian work.

Shaul Wallach, Benei Beraq

In a message dated 3/21/00 4:30:18 AM US Central Standard Time, 
cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il writes:

<< 
 > Current events are not the acts of Jews? 
 
<< I don't know of any Jews currently in the Sudan or Afghanistan. The 
 only Jews I know of in Bosnia are the ones trying to escape. How 
 are current events "acts of the Jews?" Whom are the Jews 
 torturing? When have the Jews ever run concentration camps?>>

Sudan, Afghanistan, Bosnia: not exactly a comprehensive list of current 
events. Jews are influential in other places, i.e., Washington, New York, Los 
Angeles, London, and of course, Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. If "current events" 
are limited to a handful of ethnic guerrilla wars, well, I guess we're not 
involved -- except for the biggest guerrilla war of them all, the Middle 
East, where we're one of the star attractions. The other stuff -- 
international trade and monetary policy, epochal cultural activity, national 
governance, etc., etc. -- involves Jews in very important and responsible 
positions. 

*Don't* stick your neck out by saying the Jews aren't torturing anybody, not 
if you consider Shin Bet and the Israeli border police to be "Jewish." 

David Finch

In a message dated 3/21/00 4:30:24 AM US Central Standard Time, 
cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il writes:

<< 
 I am appalled at people like you and Finch who are willing to 
 defend the virulently anti-Semitic Pope Pius. What a golus 
 mentality! >>

First of all, "Finch" has never, ever said anything in defense of Pope Pius. 
Roosevelt, yes; the Pope, no. 

Second, the only golus mentality Finch sees on the Avodah line -- extreme 
defensiveness, victim mentality, cultural paranoia, refrain after refrain of 
"woe-is-us," bitterness about everything that isn't Jewish, and plenty that 
is -- comes from people who are afraid to open their eyes to the rest of the 
world. Many of these people live in Israel, and delude themselves into 
believing that with Aliyah they escaped golus. They haven't. They'll carry 
golus in their hearts until the day they die, or wise up.

David Finch

On 21 Mar 00, at 8:55, DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 3/21/00 4:30:18 AM US Central Standard Time, 
> cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il writes:
> 
> << 
>  > Current events are not the acts of Jews? 
>  
> << I don't know of any Jews currently in the Sudan or Afghanistan. The 
>  only Jews I know of in Bosnia are the ones trying to escape. How 
>  are current events "acts of the Jews?" Whom are the Jews 
>  torturing? When have the Jews ever run concentration camps?>>
> 
> Sudan, Afghanistan, Bosnia: not exactly a comprehensive list of current 
> events. Jews are influential in other places, i.e., Washington, New York, Los 
> Angeles, London, 

I question the influence of Jews in those areas. I don't buy into "the 
Jews control the media/the banks/the stock market" and so on. 
What events do you propose that we can or should influence?

and of course, Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. 

Those events are strictly Jewish AFAIK.

If "current events" 
> are limited to a handful of ethnic guerrilla wars, 

Which is where the original poster thought we could have such 
influence....

well, I guess we're not 
> involved -- except for the biggest guerrilla war of them all, the Middle 
> East, where we're one of the star attractions. 

Why don't we call it Lebanon, which is where it is? Why don't we 
mention that we are an unwilling participant in that war?

The other stuff -- 
> international trade and monetary policy, epochal cultural activity, national 
> governance, etc., etc. -- involves Jews in very important and responsible 
> positions. 

And.... What do you think we are doing wrong?

> *Don't* stick your neck out by saying the Jews aren't torturing anybody, not 
> if you consider Shin Bet and the Israeli border police to be "Jewish." 

Funny. The Supreme Court said they can't do that anymore. Of 
course, the PA puts the KGB to shame,  but we have nothing to do 
with that....

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 21 Mar 00, at 9:03, DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 3/21/00 4:30:24 AM US Central Standard Time, 
> cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il writes:
> 
> << 
>  I am appalled at people like you and Finch who are willing to 
>  defend the virulently anti-Semitic Pope Pius. What a golus 
>  mentality! >>
> 
> First of all, "Finch" has never, ever said anything in defense of Pope Pius. 
> Roosevelt, yes; the Pope, no. 

Half a loaf is better than none.

> Second, the only golus mentality Finch sees on the Avodah line -- extreme 
> defensiveness, victim mentality, cultural paranoia, refrain after refrain of 
> "woe-is-us," bitterness about everything that isn't Jewish, and plenty that 
> is -- comes from people who are afraid to open their eyes to the rest of the 
> world. Many of these people live in Israel, and delude themselves into 
> believing that with Aliyah they escaped golus. They haven't. They'll carry 
> golus in their hearts until the day they die, or wise up.

I think what we have here in Israel is a much greater pride in being 
Jews who no longer feel the need to cowtow to the Goyim. On an 
individual level, I can give you countless examples of how I have 
been able to stop pandering to them, starting with wearing a 
yarmulka during business meetings in the States. But we have 
been through that one already....

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

In a message dated 3/21/00 8:15:50 AM US Central Standard Time, 
cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il writes:

<< I think what we have here in Israel is a much greater pride in being 
 Jews who no longer feel the need to cowtow to the Goyim. On an 
 individual level, I can give you countless examples of how I have 
 been able to stop pandering to them, starting with wearing a 
 yarmulka during business meetings in the States. But we have 
 been through that one already.... >>

No, you guys don't cowtow to Goyim. (Neither do a lot of American Jews, 
either.) But you're obsessed with them, and with all the wrongs they 
continually commit against you. That might not be cowtowing, but it reflects 
an equally demeaning and unhealthy psychological relationship with Goyim. 
Until we overcome that, we'll never overcome the golus mentality.

David Finch

> (Neither do a lot of American Jews, either.)
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This, I believe, is the heart of the problem. ("American Jew" vs. "A Jew
living in America").

The Jewish people are supposed to be Am Kadosh -- a people *separate* from
the other nations.

When we as Jews define *any* part of our identity in terms of the nation
under which we live then we lose sight of our unique, national identity.

That, in turn, gives rise to the "golus" mentality under discussion.

Akiva



A reality check a day keeps
the delusions at bay (Gila Atwood)

===========================
Akiva Atwood, POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

In a message dated 3/21/00 9:21:38 AM US Central Standard Time, 
atwood@netvision.net.il writes:

<< The Jewish people are supposed to be Am Kadosh -- a people *separate* from
 the other nations.
 
 When we as Jews define *any* part of our identity in terms of the nation
 under which we live then we lose sight of our unique, national identity.
  >>

Our identity as Jews, or our identity as human beings? As Jews we are 
separate and apart, but only in the ways described in Scripture. As human 
beings, we share our fate with other human beings. I am not aware of any 
Daraisa that suggests the contrary.

If, on the other hand, we feel we must think of ourselves only as Jews, and 
eschew any attachment to the rest of the world, then we'll get what we 
deserve: isolation unto oblivion.

David Finch

how about this cliche:

think globally act locally <smile>?!

richard_wolpoe@ibi.com


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Takanos Redux 


	Nobody said it was  **never**   true.  Where the Cleaverism breaks down 
is in prioritization,  as has been mentioned by several other posters. 
Aniyei ircha kodmim and that stuff.  With the problems in our machane, we 
cannot possibly abandon time and resources to problems about which others 
(i.e. goyim) should be worrying.

	This is the problem of philosophy by cliche':  it reduces the solutions 
to all problems to a slogan.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

Noah Witty wrote 
<<HM should, in fairness to readers, remind readers that (as my memory 
serves) his wife is in the catering business...>>

In defense of RHM, if not his position, I would note that he has frequently 
and openly referred to his own negius to the simcha industry.

Meyer

tangentially fwiw:  Dr. Agus made it a point to tel us that the welfare as 
described in the Torah (e.g. shmitas kesafim) was in order to hava an entire 
society loyal to each otehr and to the state.

the danger was that a disnfranchised poor caste would not defend their homeland 
- as Par'oh feared, v'hooy ki sikrena milchomo.  Except  that the Torah solution
was magnanimity instead of opression..

The ideal was to support the poor, to include them in our simchos (mattanos 
l'evyonim) not only for altruistic reasons, but also for reasons of national 
unity.  The theory is that poor people will fight for a land that cares for 
them.

Taking care of poor becomes an issue of achdus; there is a reciprocity the poor 
can give back to the welfare state, and that is loyalty and service. It is not a
such an evil for poor to populate he armed services, it is more of a barter, you
the state provide a safety net, we will reciprocate by serving.

Disclaimer:, this is idealized model, it does not imply that all poor are 
grateful, etc.

Neverhteless, taking care of the poor is of indirect benefit to the rich on a 
nationla level.

When I appeal to ahatzoloh, I say this is a form of insurance policy for us. 
Whoe know when C'V we will need hatzolo, so I think of it more as an insurance 
premium than as a gift.  Similarly "bribing" the poor insures that they are not 
considered michutz lamcheneh and in times of trouble that can be of value to 
all.

good purim
Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com 

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Bnei Brak 

Azoi!? So tell me in which democratic country don't the rich subsidize the poor?

SHLOMO B ABELES

I have this impression in many cases taht since KAJ sticks to minhag harishinim 
(chiefly the maharil) that it has steadfastly adhered to older versions of 
minhagim as opposed to others in Poland, etc. that allowed for soem modifying 
and rifting, etc.

I can only tell you this from experience of devotoin to minhag and to the 
siddurim such as Baer and Roedelheim which were amongst the most carefully 
published for several generations.

this particular case is an extrapolation from a pattern that seems 
well-established, that Minhagim in Frankfurt, KAJ, etc. have very old precdents 
and documentatoin, etc.

My experience in other kehillos is that they are not as vigilant in preserving 
these fine points.

A prominent exception to this generality is re: kabblistic liturgy. SOME KAJ'ers
tell me that brich shmey is omitted cause that is the ancient minhag, or iow it 
never was added in. My impression is that brich shmei, ana bekoach and a few 
others are omitted DAVKA following shabtai zvi.  There are many who agree with 
me on this, but no one has a clear-cut source yet.  IOW it is possible that all 
of ashkenez and Polan sued to say brich shmei before SZ, and davka in germany 
they stopped it, making this a NEWER minhag. 

Good Purim
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


The sources I found did neither. Which leaves me wondering if it's 
another relatively recent hiddush, or, as you suggested, an older minhag 
that was lost everywhere else. The doubts I expressed were toward that, 
that you seemed to be suggesting that out of the entire Jewish world, 
only KAJ retained what would have once been a universal practice.



---sam

disclaimer, my peshetl was in the spirit of purim!

Good Purim
Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Megilas Esther & Sheimos/Tasmania 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    3/21/2000 1:05 AM


>richard_wolpoe wrote: lkeacha mordeachi lo l'vas 
>L'vas = L'vais
>Bitehco = veitcheho
>Just as Mordechai's Bas was his wife, so
>too the dibros allude to ishtecho via vitecho

That may be a fine pshetl. But of course the obvious pshat is
"Atoh" refers to the wife - just as much as it refers to her husband.

SP

SHLOMO B ABELES

fwiw, I have heard that Stalin davak put jews on the front lines against the 
nazis

He probably did so because he knew thatthey would fight harder and would not 
defect

and it is also possible that he was giving the Jews the Uriah hachiti treatment 
and putting us in harm's way.

As Churchill once quipped about making common cause with Stalin, that if AH ysv 
invaded gehenomm, he would put in a good word for the devil!

We can see that from a neutral perspective Stalin's move makes sense, yet from 
our persepctive we are again the victim...

Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
  

Not exactly. Stalin was a butcher who liked killing all sorts of inconvenient 
fellow-countrymen, including Jews. He didn't want to help Jews, but if 
defeating the Nazis had such an undesirable side effect, well, Stalin could 
attend to the matter later. And he did. Many a minyan were formed in each 
barracks at Gulag. 



David Finch

In a message dated 3/21/00 10:32:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

<< 
 Aniyei ircha kodmim and that stuff.  With the problems in our machane, we 
 cannot possibly abandon time and resources to problems about which others 
 (i.e. goyim) should be worrying. >>
Taking the example of aniyei ircha -- does that mean to you that a town must 
give all it's tzedaka to the local poor and raise them to the appropriate 
level before $1 goes to outside aniyim? I don't believe that this has been 
historically true (i.e., am I not allowed to give to the requests coming from 
outside )? Is this halachically true?

On an analogous level, I don't think anyone is suggesting that orthodox Jews 
should abandon Jewish causes to fight poverty in bangla desh, but we should 
at least care (perhaps at least analogous to the kind word which we must 
halachically give the poor even if we have no tzedaka for them)

Purim Sameach
Joel Rich

Reminds me of a fellow at KAJ who is the vending machine  business.

he gives out candy on simchas torah so that his brother the dentist will get a 
parnasso! 

(yes I AM kidding!)

Good Purim
Richard_wolpoe@ibi.com


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: wedding takanos 


HM wrote:

"There is no consideration in these Takanos for those 
who make their living in the Simcha business. "



Happy Purim.
NW

> Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 23:31:44 EST
> From: DFinchPC@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Takanos Redux

I wrote:

<<This is the problem of philosophy by cliche':  it reduces the solutions
to all problems to a slogan.
 
To which RDF replied:

<<Maybe. But to avoid commitment on grounds that others (i.e., the Goyim)

should be doing the work for us is, I think, one of the "desperate
enterprises" about which Thoreau warned. >>

	I take marching orders from Thoreaus no more than from Cleaver.  In a
perfect world,  we Jews would have time and resources to address all
problems.  It isn't a perfect world and we have to prioritize.  The
priorities are aniyei ircha.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

correction: s/b drifting not rifting!


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re[2]: Diyyuk Redux  
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    3/21/2000 10:42 AM


I have this impression in many cases taht since KAJ sticks to minhag harishinim 
(chiefly the maharil) that it has steadfastly adhered to older versions of 
minhagim as opposed to others in Poland, etc. that allowed for soem modifying 
and rifting, etc.

I can only tell you this from experience of devotoin to minhag and to the 
siddurim such as Baer and Roedelheim which were amongst the most carefully 
published for several generations.

this particular case is an extrapolation from a pattern that seems 
well-established, that Minhagim in Frankfurt, KAJ, etc. have very old precdents 
and documentatoin, etc.

My experience in other kehillos is that they are not as vigilant in preserving 
these fine points.

A prominent exception to this generality is re: kabblistic liturgy. SOME KAJ'ers
tell me that brich shmey is omitted cause that is the ancient minhag, or iow it 
never was added in. My impression is that brich shmei, ana bekoach and a few 
others are omitted DAVKA following shabtai zvi.  There are many who agree with 
me on this, but no one has a clear-cut source yet.  IOW it is possible that all 
of ashkenez and Polan sued to say brich shmei before SZ, and davka in germany 
they stopped it, making this a NEWER minhag. 

Good Purim
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


The sources I found did neither. Which leaves me wondering if it's 
another relatively recent hiddush, or, as you suggested, an older minhag 
that was lost everywhere else. The doubts I expressed were toward that, 
that you seemed to be suggesting that out of the entire Jewish world, 
only KAJ retained what would have once been a universal practice.



---sam

In the 1970's there was an accusation that Jews controled the media (I forgot 
who said it)

David Luchins was at an Am Jewish Committee meeting in which an order went out 
to tell the 3 major networks to categorically deny that Jews run the media

While the irony was perhaps lost on the AJ committee, David Luchins did not miss
a beat and told this one over to us...

Good Purim
Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

I question the influence of Jews in those areas. I don't buy into "the 
Jews control the media/the banks/the stock market" and so on. 
What events do you propose that we can or should influence?



-- Carl

*********************


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