Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 459

Wednesday, March 22 2000

• Re: How can we condemn the church if we do not live up to at least the same standard
• (no subject)
• How can we condemn the church if we do not live up
• How can we condemn the church if we do not live up
• how can we condemn etc
• Administrivia: Membership Agreement, mark II
• Re: Avodah V4 #458
• How can we condemn the church if we do not live up to at
• Re[2]: how can we condemn etc.
• Re: Avodah V4 #458
• Re: How can we condemn the church if we do not live up
• Re: Burim
• Melech Elyon - Evyon
• Re: How can we condemn the church if we do not live up
• Re: Burim
• Anti-Semites and their Pilots
• Re: How can we condemn the church if we do not live up

: No. Part of his responsibility is to see that his "children" act morally.
: That being the case shouldn't he speak out against such acts regardless 
: of who they are commited against? 

I will say it again -- what is this stuff doing on Avodah?

-mi

From: Yzkd@aol.com
Subject: Am Horatzus alert (was Burim)

>I had written that Mordechai was a great grandson of Yosef the Possuk says 
he 
>was from Binyomin!

Velo am ha'aretz chassid - but admitting mistakes is a midas chassidus.
velo habaishan lameid - again, not to worry.

Leah Greenstein

> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:10:27 -0500
> From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
> Subject: Re[2]: How can we condemn the church if we do not live up 

<<An American Jew is a JEW who is modified by being an American>>

<<Italian-American is like Italian Car Italian Pizza Italian Shoes>>

	Maybe RAA is thinking in Hebrew,  looking for the noun before the
modifier <g>?

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 14:10:02 -0500
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject: Re[2]: How can we condemn the church if we do not live up 

<<I read recently that once upon a time armed Jews killed 75,000 enemies
in one day!>>

	Real murderous types.  They have two days to kill anyone in sight in
Shushan,  with no resistance (bifneihem/lifneihem <g>) and the most they
manage to kill is 500+300!
<g>

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:06:57 -0500
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject: Re[2]: how can we condemn etc. 
 
<<I was taught the following:
 
We are supposed to give a yasher koach to kohanim even though they  are
mechuyav to bench us. 
 
As I understand it, we are to acknowledge with apprecation for the
positive outcome regardless of the underlying motives...>>

	How do yo know that there will be a positive outcome?  FWIW I heard a
long time ago that the yasher koach is for the be'ahava,  which appears
the exact opposite of what you said, i.e. that we thank them for their
intentions regardless of outcome.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

Well, this LONG (roughly 300 lines) megillah is what is now considered the
membership agreement, guidelines and configuration options. Part of the
reason it's so long is because the document now includes requests about
formatting email, and a list of some acronyms (taken from volume 4).

Comment to me in personal email if you have any suggestions.

-mi




                                                                  BS"D

The Avodah mailing list hosts a chevrah that focusses on analysis of
hashkafah, avodas Hashem, ta'amei hamitzvos, lomdus, machshavah, and
halachah -- with an emphasis on the places where halachah, machshavah
and hargashah meet.

In addition to the core topics of the list, Avodah is aimed at building and
strengthening that chevrah.  Contributions aren't strictly limited to the
charter topic. Also, the list is not moderated, as that would create a
more formal atmosphere than intended. Content is controlled by limiting
membership to those that allow the chevrah to thrive and to stay on
topic.

The discussion is maintained at a relatively high level; many of the
participants are scholars or very knowledgable lay people. The dialogue
should, therefore, be in depth, and assume less need for translation of
terms than in many other lists.

If you are interested in advanced discussions of topics that fall into
these categories, this group may be for you!

Digest mode is recommended for two reasons: 1- You may otherwise find
the volume overwhelming, roughly 75-100 letters daily, as opposed to 4
or 5 digests; 2- The delayed response time gives people to think over
their replies, reinforcing a higher level of conversation. If, however,
you'd prefer receiving each person's email one at a time, send the
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The list is managed by Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>, and
incorporates the BaisTefila mailing list launched by Rabbi Yosef
G. Bechhofer <ygb@aishdas.org>. R' Bechhofer is morah d'asra of
Congregation Beis Tefila. They maintain a website of his divrei Torah
at <http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila>.



		       Membership Agreement,
		Guidelines and Configuration Options


It seems that the mechanism of a number of groups that want to have
focused subjects and avoid certain types of flame wars is to e-mail to a
subscriber candidate a list of rules for being in the group. If the
candidate agrees to abide by the rules, then (s)he will then e-mail back
agreement, at which point the candidate is put on the list.

Failure to abide by the rules can result in a warning by the list-owner,
called in our parlance a "DNA", a Darchei No'am alert. Gross or habitual
non-compliance with the list guidelines will lead to termination of
membership (chas v'shalom!).

As an overview: The parameters of "darchei noam" and the Rambam's Thirteen
Principles of Belief (and/or The Ani Ma'amins and/or the Yigdal) are baseline
standards for our discussion group.


To expand:

1. No personal attacks: If you must err, err on the side of friendliness
and civility.

Use Hillel's simple rule of thumb: If you were in their shoes it would
insult you, don't say it.

No maligning others or their opinions, whether in a humorous way or by
saying that the opinion does not conform to any halachic standard or it
frightens you. That does not mean that you cannot respectfully disagree
and then bring proofs why. Just question the person RESPECTFULLY!


2. Similarly: Do not make disparaging comments about other segments of
the Orthodox community. In addition to this being proper middos, it is
critical if we are to maintain Avodah as an interesting group to make
people with a diverse variety of opinions all feel welcome.

The overriding lesson is to always make your opinion clear WITHOUT
marginalizing another's opinion. If the other's opinion is in fact
"dangerous," and you feel strongly that others are being led astray,
let me know, and we may decide, after a cogent respectful exegesis of the
sources, that perhaps it is necessary to slap a cautionary "questionable"
label on the issue and move on to a new topic.


3. Humor that is not directed at a person or his opinions is allowed. (It's
part of what makes a chevrah.) Ridicule is a violation of the previous two
guidelines.

Remember that email does not convey tone of voice. This leads to many
misunderstandings in electronic fora. Therefore, judiciously use emotion
indicators (such as ":-)" "<grin>" "<sigh>" and the like). Make sure
people know when you're joking. Similarly, before taking insult at
someone else's comment, read 


4. The binding authority of halachah is a given (the definition of this
authority is a broad one, and may be subject to discussion, but it is an
absolutely Orthodox one!). That is, everything is open for debate except
the legitimacy of halachah itself. Of course there will be disagreement
about what halachah may require.

Actively promoting a clearly non-Orthodox viewpoint is grounds for
summary dismissal.


5. No translations are necessarily expected, as we would prefer to keep
the discussions on high levels. From time to time, however, you may use
uncommon phrases which it would be nice to translate! Towards the goals of
this group, contributors are encouraged to keep up as high a level of
discourse as possible.

When you introduce a new acronym, please be sure to define it.

If you do not recall a source for a statement, it is a productive use of
the list to ask others for help. However, if you can locate the reference
but it isn't handy, kindly postpone posting until you do.


6. I will be consulting: a) with group members I see on a regular basis
face-to-face; b) with a core group of "charter members" to ask their
advice and counsel in maintaining group standards. DNAs and terminations
(chas v'shalom!) will be issued after such consultations. I ask that
any other group member not hesitate to contact me with their concerns
and suggestions.



If you e-mail me your consent to these general guidelines, I will gladly
add you to our group. In anticipation of your agreement, you will find
below some general guidelines for the options for participation you may
choose when joining Avodah. Please keep in mind that this is a fairly
active group, and if you choose to receive individual messages you may
average 75 to 100 a day!


-mi
(micha@aishdas.org, list owner)

PS: Here are some formatting recommendations. They aren't specific to
Avodah, they are all part of general email list nettiquette.

Proper posting guidelines (format issues) in decending priority order:
1- Include your name and email address in the body of each email. A signature
   file would automate this for you.

   If you want to post anonymously, have myself or another list member forward
   it for you. There is little weight given to ideas that no one is willing
   to put their name on. At least with forwarding, someone with a name is
   taking responsibility for appropriateness.

   Also some emailers are unable to show the email address of the author when
   getting mail from a list. (The "from" line reads "Avodah".) So including
   that too can be helpful.

2- Try to only post in plain (ASCII) text. MIME and HTML look horrible
   when digested. The digest appends emails together. MajorDomo doesn't
   know how to combine various formats, so everything as treated as
   though it were plain text, whether it is or not.

3- Quote as much as necessary, no more and no less. Only include the
   part(s) of the individual email your responding to that make the point
   you are commenting on. Unless you feel it would violate dinei shemiras
   halashon, include information about who sent it and possibly when. (I
   understand *accidentally* forgetting to edit down the whole digest to
   the relevent text, but it can't be a habit.)

4- Try to keep lines less than 80 characters long. Not all mail readers
   do word-wrapping of long lines. The HTML version of the archives does
   not. (But should. Another item for my "to do" list.)

5- Try to keep the subject line meaningful. This will help future readers
   find your message in the archive. It will also help those who only skim
   their email (Avodah's volume is HUGE!) to follow a conversation.

   By "meaningful" I mean either:
   a- The same as the email you're replying to; or, if the topic drifted
   b- Something clearly about the new topic.

   "Re:" and whatnot aren't an issue. But "Re: Avodah vol 4 # 167" isn't
   very informative.

6- Also, try to avoid metacharacters; those nice symbols like fancy open
   and close quotes, m-dashes and the like, which aren't part of ASCII.
   While they probably won't make your email unreadable, they are irritating
   to people whose emailers will map them to different symbols than those
   intended.

If you need technical assistance in order to configure your emailer to fit
these guidelines, please let me know.
-mi
(micha@aishdas.org, list owner)

PPS: Here's a hopefully useful but incomplete list of acronyms that are
standard to Avodah, but aren't in common usage. I marked each either "[A]"
for those specific to Avodah; "[J]" those that are used in Jewish internetting;
and "[I]" denotate those acronyms used throughout the internet culture.

A chaveir on the list is often refered to by his initials preceded by a
leading "R" for Rav or Reb. (For example, I would be RMB, and R' Bechhofer
is RYGB.) This ambiguity allows you to avoid insulting someone by omitting
a well-earned title. We are still seeking a female equivalent.

    AFAIK   [I] as far as I know
    A"H     [A] Aruch haShulchan
    AIUI    [I] as I understand it
    BhM     [A] Birchas haMazon
    BTW     [I] By the way
    C       [J] Conservative
    ChM     [A] chol hamo'ed
    FOAF    [I] friend of a friend -- the source of all urban legends
    H'      [J] Hashem
    HKBH    [A] Hakadosh Baruch Hu
    IIRC    [I] if I recall correctly
    IMHO    [I] in my humble opinion (see IMO, LAD)
    IMO     [I] in my opinion (see IMHO, LAD)
    IOW     [I] in other words
    LAD     [J] lifi aniyas da'ati (see IMHO, IMO)
    LW      [A] left wing
    MB      [A] Mishnah Berurah
    MMG"H   [A] an AishDas learning program (mikra, mishna, gemara & halachah)
    mod-O   [J] modern Orthodox
    O       [J] Orthodox
    O"Ch    [A] Orach Chaim
    OCR     [J] Orthodox vs. Conservative vs. Reform
    OTOH    [I] on the one/other hand
    R'      [A] Rav; Reb
    R       [J] Reform
    RSRH    [A] Rav Samson Rephael Hirsch
    RW      [A] right wing
    RYBS    [A] Rav Yoseph Ber Soloveitchik
    SA      [J] Shulchan Aruch
    TIA     [I] thanks in advance
    TIDE    [A] Torah im Derech Eretz
    TuM     [A] Torah uMadda
    URL     [I] universal resource locator -- a web address
    W-t     [A] Wissenschaft
    WADR    [I] with all due respect (i.e. bimchilas kivodo)
    WRT     [I] with respect to
    YMMV    [I] your mileage may vary
    YT      [A] Yom Tov

-mi
(micha@aishdas.org, list owner)

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 20-Mar-00: Levi, Tzav
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 12a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

In a message dated 3/22/00 1:41:10 PM Central Standard Time, 
owner-avodah@aishdas.org writes:

<< wiw As soon as I saw that artificially sweetened soda's prices rose to the 
same
 level as the sugared variety, I immediately realized that this was nothing 
but a
 scam.
  >>
actually I had to stop using diet pop, I developed artificial diabetes!

I believe that he failure of Pius XII was publicized many years ago in the play 
"The Deputy" which appeared in the 1960's.

The remaining issue - as I see it -
1) Is it productive for Jews to engage in finger-pointing 
or 
2) is it or counter-productive?

versus:
A) do we have the RIGHT to point fingers
or
B) do we not have that right.

Richard_wolpoe@ibi.com




______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: How can we condemn the church if we do not live up to at lea

Now that we've established that Jews _do_ help all over the world, is it 
too much to have asked Pope Pius to, just once, during one Sunday sermon, 
to have mentioned that the slaughtering of people based on the sole reason 
of their religion was un-Christian-like?

-- Eric



Another difference is the fact that the Pope had it in his power single-handedly
and directly to make a difference. Jews today while they may be able to make 
somewhat of a difference, have nowhere near the same clout. Is this not also a 
basic difference between the two situations?

Aviva, you may be right that we should speak out, but wouldn't you agree that 
the comparison is unfair?

TR

See http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

baalei dikduk will note the distinctionon of whether it is a veis or a beis


Main Entry: 1jive
Pronunciation: 'jIv
Function: noun
Etymology: origin unknown
Date: 1928
1 : swing music or the dancing performed to it
2 a : glib, deceptive, or foolish talk b : the jargon of hipsters c : a special 
jargon of difficult or slang terms
- jivey /'jI-vE/ adjective 


Main Entry: 3jibe
Function: intransitive verb
Inflected Form(s): jibed; jib·ing
Etymology: origin unknown
Date: 1813
: to be in accord : AGREE 

-Wally Cleaver
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: how can we condemn etc. 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate Date:    3/22/2000 2:18 PM


In a message dated 3/22/00 12:28:27 PM US Central Standard Time, 
katzco@sprintmail.com writes:

<< How does this jive with her honorary degree from YU?
 Best wishes for a froelichen shushan purim >>

It jives plenty, as in "all the jive" or "don't give me that jive" or "you're 
full of jive."

David Finch

In a message dated 3/22/00 1:41:10 PM Central Standard Time, 
owner-avodah@aishdas.org writes:

<< Does this imply that Jews are SO powerful they even control the 
anti-semites?! 
 <ha ha> >>
Don't laugh, there's an interesting theory by a Jewish feature writer from 
the 20's, who maintains that the reason for the sometimes extreme sinah from 
goyim is related to their inability to shake us out of their lives. Their 
messiah was Jewish, and, without our uttering a whisper, they, consciously, 
or unconsciously, can't deal with that fact. Their church, li'havdil, looks 
like our sanctuaries, their services, morals, ethics, customs, holidays, 
resemble ours. We're their worst nightmare that they can't shake. The 
atrocities are an attempt to shake free. We should be proud of our power, not 
embroil them in accusations of stereotyping. Our European ancestors had it 
much worse, in almost every way.
Barry Schwarz

All kidding aside

The PERCEPTION is that Jews  - given the chance - might rise up and kill.

Example: There was a survey - which I read during the 1970's -  of enlisted 
men in the US armed forces - sometime between WWII and Vietnam...The enlisted 
men assumed because the chaplains consisted of  Protestants, Catholics and 
Jews that therefore they are evenly distributed and that therefore the entire 
USA was proportionately about 33% Protestants 33% Catholics and 33% Jews.

Here we have an example of supreme irony.
We Jews say: "POOR US. Only the Pope has real power."
While the Pope is  saying "POOR US only the Jews have real power!" 
both sides ignoring reality as well was the other sides percpetions of reality.

Lest you judge this as ridiculous. I once asked my history professor  - Robert 
Goldberg -  as to how it miraculously came about that the Japanes who were 
allied with Hitler - could save Jews during WWII! It made no sense.  His 
response was that he thought the Japanese bought the nazi propoganda that the 
Jews DID rule the world and were afraid of getting on their bad side, so they 
were civil to them, So even though they tortured both Chinese Civilians and 
American POW's they were still civil to Jews. The fact that Jews wer in reality 
refuges on the run did not dawn upon them.  They were not afraid of the USA, 
they were not afraid of half-a-billion Chinese, but they were afraid of about 
50,000 Jews.

Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


<<I read recently that once upon a time armed Jews killed 75,000 enemies 
in one day!>>

	Real murderous types.  They have two days to kill anyone in sight in 
Shushan,  with no resistance (bifneihem/lifneihem <g>) and the most they 
manage to kill is 500+300!
<g>

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

Reb YitzchokZ's comment on my wishing you all my Arab student's berakha of
"Burim Sameach" was, "Ein Bur Yerei Cheit :-)"

There were other comments bosted, but not the exbected, ha-bur reik, ein bo mayyim 
or berhaps bur sid shelo m'abed tibba.

But the main burbose of this bosting is to ask R'Yitzchok, Blease tell me to whom 
your comment referred, to me or to the student?

And a merry Shushan Burim to all, both those in Yerushalayim and those  observing 
the yomtov sheni shel galuyot.

David

R;' ETeitz wrote: 
Similar to Melech Elyon and melech evyon on Rosh
Hashanah, though we apparently omit most of the evyon paragraphs. I
suspect that is the reason the stanzas begin with every *other* letter of
the alef-bais.)

In Goldschmidt's R"H and Y"K machzorim you can find all the alternating  Elyon and 
Evyon stanzas that we skip today.

Sh. Bu. Sameah,

David

In a message dated 3/22/00 1:55:42 PM US Central Standard Time, 
gershon.dubin@juno.com writes:

<< Real murderous types.  They have two days to kill anyone in sight in
 Shushan,  with no resistance (bifneihem/lifneihem <g>) and the most they
 manage to kill is 500+300!
 <g> >>

They were too busy arguing about Eldridge Cleaver, Henry David Thoreau, and 
the Pope. They wouldn't shut up, even after the captain, Micha Berger, 
shouted, "Quiet down and pay attention! The enemy is over THERE!" That's why 
IDF consists largely of non-religious Jews. There rest of us not only don't 
know how to shoot straight, we don't even know whom to shoot at.

David Finch

In a message dated 3/22/00 3:36:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
dbnet@barak-online.net writes:

> There were other comments bosted, but not the exbected, ha-bur reik, ein bo 
> mayyim 
>  or berhaps bur sid shelo m'abed tibba.

As I responded to L.G.'s bosting of Vyeritzuhu Min Habur (it was the same 
Yosef), that the issue is not only the P/B they are pronunced Boir not Bur, 
however the Mishne in Pirkei Avos is pronounced Bur.

>  
>  But the main burbose of this bosting is to ask R'Yitzchok, Blease tell me 
to 
> whom 
>  your comment referred, to me or to the student?

In the (shushan) Purim spirit the arabs weren't Mekabeil the Torah, so for 
them Ein Habur Yerei Cheit :-)


Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

See the artscroll w/ Elngish p. 312 on hariu Lashem kol ho'oretz wrt the Netziv 
and czarist official

Richard_wolpoe@ibi.com


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Avodah V4 #458 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate 
Date:    3/22/2000 3:25 PM


In a message dated 3/22/00 1:41:10 PM Central Standard Time, 
owner-avodah@aishdas.org writes:

<< Does this imply that Jews are SO powerful they even control the 
anti-semites?! 
 <ha ha> >>
Don't laugh, there's an interesting theory by a Jewish feature writer from 
the 20's, who maintains that the reason for the sometimes extreme sinah from 
goyim is related to their inability to shake us out of their lives. Their 
messiah was Jewish, and, without our uttering a whisper, they, consciously, 
or unconsciously, can't deal with that fact. Their church, li'havdil, looks 
like our sanctuaries, their services, morals, ethics, customs, holidays, 
resemble ours. We're their worst nightmare that they can't shake. The 
atrocities are an attempt to shake free. We should be proud of our power, not 
embroil them in accusations of stereotyping. Our European ancestors had it 
much worse, in almost every way.
Barry Schwarz

In a message dated 3/22/00 2:28:33 PM US Central Standard Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

<< Lest you judge this as ridiculous. I once asked my history professor  - 
Robert 
 Goldberg -  as to how it miraculously came about that the Japanes who were 
 allied with Hitler - could save Jews during WWII! It made no sense.  His 
 response was that he thought the Japanese bought the nazi propoganda that 
the 
 Jews DID rule the world and were afraid of getting on their bad side, so 
they 
 were civil to them, So even though they tortured both Chinese Civilians and 
 American POW's they were still civil to Jews. The fact that Jews wer in 
reality 
 refuges on the run did not dawn upon them.  They were not afraid of the USA, 
 they were not afraid of half-a-billion Chinese, but they were afraid of 
about 
 50,000 Jews. >>

That's what happens when you ask an academic a simple question. You get a 
convoluted, superficially convincing, but ultimately nonsensical answer. 

The truth: The Japanese hated the Chinese. But there was something the 
Japanese couldn't understand: In every city of the world, the Jews quietly 
flocked to visit the Chinese at dinner time. In some cities, particularly 
Queens, Miami, Detroit, and Cleveland, Chinese restaurants had as many Jewish 
customers as Asian ones -- but few other ethnic groups would dare invade such 
precincts. Some Chinese offered a special dish called the "Early Bird," 
served at the odd hour of 4:00 p.m., and *only* Jews (particularly the older 
and thus wiser ones, held in great esteem under both Chinese and Japanese 
tradition) would show up.

*That's* why the Japanese feared the Jews: they couldn't understand the 
strange connection between the Jews and the Chinese, and were afraid that if 
they angered the Jews, the Chinese would rise up and rally to the Jews' aid.

Eddie Haskell

*********************


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