Avodah Mailing List

Volume 05 : Number 010

Tuesday, April 11 2000

• RSL
• Re: Fw: Ruchani Eye on Rabbi Ovadaih Yosef, shlita
• Koreich
• ROY's comments
• Truth
• Re: RYBS criticising secular Israeli leadership
• Re: ROY's comments
• Re: RYBS criticising secular Israeli leadership
• Re: RYBS criticising secular Israeli leadership
• rasha
• Re: rasha
• Re: ROY's comments
• Eating less than a k'zayis of matzah
• Request for your tefilot
• Re: "Avodah" Discussion of Rav Ovadiah Yosef
• Re: RSL
• Re: ROY's comments
• Re: RYBS criticising secular Israeli leadership
• Re: RYBS criticising secular Israeli leadership
• Re: RYBS criticising secular Israeli leadership

He was never the intellectual head of the CM. If he was, they would have
looked different. He was the classic hired gun.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel B. Schwartz <SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 10:46 AM
Subject: Re: RYBS criticising secular Israeli leadership


>
> But this is the same Prof. Lieberman who was at the intellectual head of
the
> Conservative movement, the very sam movement ROY, the Rabbanut, the Eida
> Chareidis is batling now in Israel.  It is the same Conservative movement
> that the was compared to amalek not too long ago.  The Conservatives have
> not really changed their appproach in over 35 years.  ROY felt justified
in
> sneaking into JTS in the 1960's and 70's to talk in learning with Prof.
> Lieberman, a man who trained those who now seek to ireversibly alter of
not
> destroy the status quo in Israeli religious life.  That seems rather
> inconsistent with his current pronouncements.
>

R' Finch wrote: <<
The sages may know the truth with the divine spirit that is within them,
*if*
they connect with that truth and that spirit. Maybe sometimes the sages get
a
little carried away with their own agenda. Sages are still human, and still
suffer from human faults. They suffer temptation, particularly the
temptation
of ego. A sage isn't a sage to the extent he forgets he's a sage and doesn't
act like one.

No sage is superior to the truth.  >>

By what criterion do we decide that "a sage has not acted like a sage"?
Presumably if he has placed himself above "the truth"?

Who determines if these criteria (which appear to me to be at best
imprecise, at worst, devoid of content) have been satisfied?

KT,
Shlomo Godick


content

Well, I was prepared to dismiss R' Micha's position out of hand, but there
it is folks: Rogatchover Chomtez u'Matzo 8:6 - according to Hillel one needs
only a kezayis and a half total of Pesach, Matzo u'Maror. I have still not
figured out his lomdus, but I am going to try, for I need a Shabbos Ha'Gadol
derosho!

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

No matter what where ROY's actual words, I think Daniel B. Schwartz is being 
far to literal. I also have a question. Orthodox Jews pray  "vilamalshinim" 3 
times daily.  I am curious what kind of Kavana members of the list have, or 
think we should have, when saying this Bracha.

Also, could someone please inform me what exactly was ROY'S relaitonship with 
Proff. Leiberman?

Toby Rubinson 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <DFinchPC@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 2:06 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Ruchani Eye on Rabbi Ovadaih Yosef, shlita


> No sage is superior to the truth.
> 
> David Finch
> 

Who defines "truth"?

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

>Daniel B. Schwartz  wrote:        Subject: Re: RYBS criticising secular Israeli leadership

>....ROY felt justified....sneaking into JTS in the 1960's and 70's
>to talk in learning with Prof. Lieberman, a man who trained those
>who now seek to ....destroy the status quo in Israeli religious life.
>That seems rather inconsistent with his current pronouncements.

The question is a good one and maybe someone should ask ROY himself.
BTW did he really "sneak" in, or was it quite openly?

Meanwhile to be Don LeKaf Zechus, maybe ROY (being a Sefardi - who never had
such "onshikenishen" as Reform and Conservative) didn't know, 30-40 years ago,
exactly what  the JTS stood for.

V'afilu Timtzo Lomar that he did, I have no doubt that he is quite sorry about it today.
(Im ro'isoh Talmid Chochom sheovar aveira....al teharer achrov....Vadai
Osoh Tshuva- say Chazal).

SBA

On 10 Apr 00, at 20:31, Tobrr111@aol.com wrote:

> No matter what where ROY's actual words, I think Daniel B. Schwartz is being 
> far to literal. I also have a question. Orthodox Jews pray  "vilamalshinim" 3 
> times daily.  I am curious what kind of Kavana members of the list have, or 
> think we should have, when saying this Bracha.

It wouldn't be politically correct to print it :-) 

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

On 10 Apr 00, at 16:20, Harry Maryles wrote:

> I have pretty much stayed out of this thread but the
> blind adherence to any Gadol's statement, especially
> when there are other gedolim who disagree lacks a
> certain degree of intellectual honesty about one's own
> inclinations on any given issue. As long as there are
> other Torah perspectives on the issue, one should have
> the freedom to take an opposing view.

What Gadol, let alone what Gadol of analagous stature, has 
disagreed with what ROY said? Yes, there are Gdolim who have 
quietly disagreed (and even then really only by their silence) with 
the wisdom of what he said and how he said it (IOW I agree with 
RSG's analysis last night), but what Gadol has called for us to 
accept Yossi Sarid's rule over the Ministry of Education, and more 
specifically Charedi schools? What Gadol has said we should not 
oppose Sarid?

> That being said, I still find it troubling that the
> "State" would want to prosecute ANYONE for violating a
> law which itself violates the spirit of one of the
> primary tenants of a modern democracy, that of free
> speech. When that "anyone" is someone of the stature
> of a "ROY" it makes it even more troubling and cause
> for great concern.  I suspect that the "State" here is
> more represented by the Torah haters than by the
> "people". It therefore behooves all of us to stand up
> for Kavod HaTorah and not allow this injustice to
> stand, even if we don't agree with him.  An attack on
> ROY is an attack on all of us.

Exactly. 

> It is easy to say that we would resign our position
> rather than to prosecute a Gadol.  But that would be
> the easy, and perhaps not the best, way out.  I think
> we must be Dan LeKav Zechus. Perhaps he is just going
> through the motions inorder to appease the Yossi
> Sarids (YS) of the world and has no intention of
> prosecuting ROY. 

I agree, although even as a lawyer, I still think he did the wrong 
thing. And that does not mean we do not have a chiyuv to be 
mocheh on the injury to ROY's kavod.

 If a Torah
> observant Jew were to resign everytime a Charedi got
> into trouble he would lose all credibility and respect
> from the secular world and would further drive a wedge
> between those of us who represent Torah, and the
> Chilonim.  

Reb Harry - you seem to have this idea that the "wedge" is only 
being driven from the Charedi side, or that the wedge is principally 
being driven from the Charedi side. If you haven't seen it already, I 
strongly suggest you look at R. Yonasson Rosenblum's column in 
Friday's Post. 
http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2000/04/07/Columns/Columns.5181.
html

> This would in the end be counter productive. If ER
> palys his cards right he can steer a course between
> the two antagonists, ROY and YS, without prosecuting
> ROY, thus salvaging respect of at least some chilonim
> in their respect for our integrity, thereby creating a
> Kidush HaShem in the proccess.

I think the only Chilonim whose respect Rubinstein will salvage if 
ROY is not indicted are those who were opposed to the 
"investigation" in the first place. He will not change the views of the 
Meretz and Shinui supporters one iota.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

--- Carl and Adina Sherer <sherer@actcom.co.il> wrote:

> 
> What Gadol, let alone what Gadol of analagous
> stature, has 
> disagreed with what ROY said? Yes, there are Gdolim
> who have 
> quietly disagreed (and even then really only by
> their silence) with 
> the wisdom of what he said and how he said it (IOW I
> agree with 
> RSG's analysis last night), but what Gadol has
> called for us to 
> accept Yossi Sarid's rule over the Ministry of
> Education, and more 
> specifically Charedi schools? What Gadol has said we
> should not 
> oppose Sarid?

I was of course not saying that anyone sides with
Sarid. I was simply reffering to the strident approach
that ROY took versus the quitet approach that other
Gedolim took.  In this sense it is fair to take the
sides of those whose view is not to antagonize the
opposition and in the proccess riling up his zealous
supporters.  I'm not even saying which view is
correct... only that there are many ways to skin a
mule.

HM

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

> 
> > Where is the twist?  ROY apparently said that Sarid should be strung up like
> > Haman and should be removed from the Earth.  The plain meaning of that seems
> > to indicate that ROY would like Sarid dead.  Lawyer or no 
> > lawyer, the words speak for themselves
> 
> IIRC, he said *HaShem* should do it. A very important point to remember.
> 

I thought we don't pray for the death of the wicked but the end of
wickedness.

Eli Turkel

On 11 Apr 00, at 13:26, Eli Turkel wrote:

> > > Where is the twist?  ROY apparently said that Sarid should be strung up like
> > > Haman and should be removed from the Earth.  The plain meaning of that seems
> > > to indicate that ROY would like Sarid dead.  Lawyer or no 
> > > lawyer, the words speak for themselves
> > 
> > IIRC, he said *HaShem* should do it. A very important point to remember.
> > 
> 
> I thought we don't pray for the death of the wicked but the end of
> wickedness.

Yes, that's correct (some may recall me arguing that with another 
listmember a couple of months ago). But ROY did NOT pray for 
Sarid's death, at least according to the quote in the Post. The 
March 19 edition of the Post reported:

"Yosef last night compared Education Minister Sarid to
               Haman in his weekly address broadcast on Shas radio
               stations. Yosef was quoted by Israel Radio as calling for
               "uprooting the evil man who hates the students of the
               wise," and saying that God will erase his name from the
               world. 

Note - no prayers there. Just a statement of fact (or an attempt at 
nevua).

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 08:31:48PM -0400, Tobrr111@aol.com wrote:
: No matter what where ROY's actual words, I think Daniel B. Schwartz is being 
: far to literal. I also have a question. Orthodox Jews pray  "vilamalshinim" 3 
: times daily.  I am curious what kind of Kavana members of the list have, or 
: think we should have, when saying this Bracha.

I have kavannah for all those misguided idiots who bought into non-Jewish
versions of reality, and therefore aid son'ei Yisrael and others who might
have good intentions but are destroying us.

One note: I say the pre-censored Ashkenazi version of the berachah.

The berachah itself actually changes tacks. It starts out with statements that
fit Beruriah's diyuk -- that malshinim and minim should lose faith in their
evil, and leave it. Particularly when you consider that post-consorship "vichol
haminim" became "vichol harsh'ah" -- the Rabbanim who made that ammendment
clearly thought the intent was to curse the evil, not the person.

However, you get to the bit about "si'akeir, us-shabeir usmageir visachni'a"
and the claim that we're talking about rish'us and not risha'im, strains my
credibility. However, this is the *second* part of the berachah. This is
after those who were able to bring themselves to teshuvah, as per the first
part, did so. There will be people who can't leave their rish'us behind, for
whom the first part of the berachah would be "lima'alah min hatevah". Since
we can't help them, we at least ask Hashem to save us from them.

The berachah of Velamalshinim is also about the problem of theodicy, of
having doubts about HKBH because justice is not apparant. Remember that it
comes after "Teka bishofar" and "Oheiv tzedakah umishpat" and before "Al
hatzadikim" -- the topic of this triad is the *post-messianic* revelation
of justice, and the request for punishment should be seen in that light.
When Hashem will step out from behind the "hester panim", and stop letting
the Hamans of this world from becoming mishneh lamelech.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  9-Apr-00: Cohen, Metzora
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 22a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 25

Around a week ago the possibility was raised of a kiyum
for eating even less than a kzayis of matzah, similar
to the concept of chatzi shiyur for issurim.  B'pashtus
chatzi shiur is a special gezeiras hakatuv by
issurim, where the shiur is l'inyan malkos, but the 
issur is chal on less, but by mitzvos the whole point
of the shiur is to define what the kiyum is.  However,
the Aruch haShulchan in 488 writes that eating less than
a kzayis of matzah is also a kiyum of some sort similar
to chazti shiur by issurim - he offers no other 
explanation or makor and I don't pretend to understand it.

-Chaim B.

My father, Avraham ben Bracha, suffered a heart attack last friday night 
after sheva brachot for his first grandchild to be married.  Hatzaloh came 
immediately and he is now in the hospital on a ventilator but still in a coma 
and unresponsive. An  eeg is being done to help determine the extent of the 
neurological damage. My entire family would appreciate your prayers on his 
behalf.

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

Dear Rabbi: [I'm not a Rabbi, but I'll forward it to those on the list -MB]

I think it's time to do a poll of Avodah correspondents with the questions:

1.   When you say the beracha VeLaMalshinim, to whom do you refer?
2.   Does this include anyone now living?
3.   Does this include any Jew now living?
4.   [If it includes nobody now living, why do you say the beracha?]
5.   Do you expect the results prayed for in this beracha to be achieved by
     HaShem, by yourself, by your circle of friends, or by some combination
     of the above? [if so, which?]
6.   Is it within the legitimate power of the Israeli Government to prohibit
     saying this beracha?
7.   If so, why?---If not, why not?
8.   Should the shliach tzibbur say this bracha as loud as the others in the
     Amidah?

Sincerely, Bob Miller

IMHO that is a distinction without a difference.
----- Original Message -----
From: Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 8:24 PM
Subject: RSL


> He was never the intellectual head of the CM. If he was, they would have
> looked different. He was the classic hired gun.
>
> Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
> http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Daniel B. Schwartz <SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
> To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 10:46 AM
> Subject: Re: RYBS criticising secular Israeli leadership
>
>
> >
> > But this is the same Prof. Lieberman who was at the intellectual head of
> the
> > Conservative movement, the very sam movement ROY, the Rabbanut, the Eida
> > Chareidis is batling now in Israel.  It is the same Conservative
movement
> > that the was compared to amalek not too long ago.  The Conservatives
have
> > not really changed their appproach in over 35 years.  ROY felt justified
> in
> > sneaking into JTS in the 1960's and 70's to talk in learning with Prof.
> > Lieberman, a man who trained those who now seek to ireversibly alter of
> not
> > destroy the status quo in Israeli religious life.  That seems rather
> > inconsistent with his current pronouncements.
> >
>
>

V'Lemalshinim is a prayer for G-d to cary out his Justice upob our enemies
and quislings.

It is a poorly kept secret that whenver he was in America, ROY would go to
JTS, usually at night to meet RSL.  The two would meet privatl for several
hours.


----- Original Message -----
From: <Tobrr111@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 8:31 PM
Subject: ROY's comments


> No matter what where ROY's actual words, I think Daniel B. Schwartz is
being
> far to literal. I also have a question. Orthodox Jews pray
"vilamalshinim" 3
> times daily.  I am curious what kind of Kavana members of the list have,
or
> think we should have, when saying this Bracha.
>
> Also, could someone please inform me what exactly was ROY'S relaitonship
with
> Proff. Leiberman?
>
> Toby Rubinson
>

----- Original Message -----
From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 7:20 PM
Subject: Re: RYBS criticising secular Israeli leadership


>
>
> --- "Daniel B. Schwartz"
> <SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET> wrote:
>
>
> Daniel:
>
> Don't you think that perhaps ROY was not exactly being
> literal?

    I don't think that is an option.  Gedolim are typically defined by their
precision of language.

 Haven't you ever said, I'm going to kill "so
> and so"?

    I probably have, but I am not an Israeli public figure, subject to
Israeli law.  ROY is.

 I do not believe anyone on this list believes
> that ROY was out to have anyone killed, and his words
> later repudiating any violence corroborates this. The
> real question here is whether rhetoric of this type is
> beneficial or detrimental to the welfare of Klal
> Israel. (The jury is still out on this one)

    I'm not sure what exists in the deep recesses of ROY's heart, I only
know what he said.  His comments were at best irresponsible and silly.  At
worst, they have far more nefarious implications.  His simply saying after
the fact that he did not intend a call to violence does little to ameliorate
the harm nor does it have much rehabiliative effect.  An apology would do
far more good than the circling of the wagons currently taking place.
>
> I have pretty much stayed out of this thread but the
> blind adherence to any Gadol's statement, especially
> when there are other gedolim who disagree lacks a
> certain degree of intellectual honesty about one's own
> inclinations on any given issue. As long as there are
> other Torah perspectives on the issue, one should have
> the freedom to take an opposing view.

    The issue is not the views espoused; it is the poor presentation of
those views.  ROY dropped the ball on this one and seriously erred.

>
> That being said, I still find it troubling that the
> "State" would want to prosecute ANYONE for violating a
> law which itself violates the spirit of one of the
> primary tenants of a modern democracy, that of free
> speech.

    To paraphrase Oliver Wendel Holmes, a great analyst of democracy,
Freedom of speech ends at the tip of your nose. . .Freedon of speech does
not allow one to walk into a crowded theatre and yell fire.

When that "anyone" is someone of the stature
> of a "ROY" it makes it even more troubling and cause
> for great concern.

    People of that stature have a higher level of responsibility to guard
their words.

 I suspect that the "State" here is
> more represented by the Torah haters than by the
> "people". It therefore behooves all of us to stand up
> for Kavod HaTorah and not allow this injustice to
> stand, even if we don't agree with him.  An attack on
> ROY is an attack on all of us.

    That attitude will never ever solve the problems.  I respectfully break
company with organized Orthodoxy on this issue.  If one of our leader makes
a mistake, and no one, not even ROY is infallible, he should admit it and go
on.  This siege mentality is counter-productive

Seems to me that it is not the talmidim of Prof. L. who are the most active in
the CM but mostly those who were not closely associatied with him.
steve

"Daniel B. Schwartz" wrote:

>  Prof. Lieberman, a man who trained those who now seek to ireversibly alter of
> not
> destroy the status quo in Israeli religious life.  That seems rather
> inconsistent with his current pronouncements.
>

On 11 Apr 00, at 10:33, Daniel B. Schwartz wrote:

>  I suspect that the "State" here is
> > more represented by the Torah haters than by the
> > "people". It therefore behooves all of us to stand up
> > for Kavod HaTorah and not allow this injustice to
> > stand, even if we don't agree with him.  An attack on
> > ROY is an attack on all of us.
> 
>     That attitude will never ever solve the problems.  I respectfully break
> company with organized Orthodoxy on this issue.  If one of our leader makes
> a mistake, and no one, not even ROY is infallible, he should admit it and go
> on.  This siege mentality is counter-productive

That attitude and the siege mentality are facts of life in Israel. They 
have been facts of life to some degree since the State was 
founded, and they have only intensified in the last twenty-five years 
or so. While quoting pithy statements of Oliver Wendell Holmes 
works wonders in academic arguments in American law schools, it 
is totally detached from Israeli reality. One who is familiar with the 
situation here up close would have realized that.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

********************


[ Distributed to the Avodah mailing list, digested version.                   ]
[ To post: mail to avodah@aishdas.org                                         ]
[ For back issues: mail "get avodah-digest vXX.nYYY" to majordomo@aishdas.org ]
[ or, the archive can be found at http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/              ]
[ For general requests: mail the word "help" to majordomo@aishdas.org         ]