Avodah Mailing List

Volume 05 : Number 017

Thursday, April 13 2000

• Rav Dessler's Shita on Chinuch
• Re: Avodah V5 #14 (Shaving)
• Re: RSG
• Diyuk in Rambam on kol hamarbeh harei zeh meshubach
• Re: Rav Schwab's approach to TIDE (was "The "Children at Risk" issues of the Jewish Observer")
• Ma Nishtana
• Re: The "Children at Risk" issues of the Jewish Observer
• Interesting to note!
• Re: Avodah V5 #15
• Chiyuv of learning Hebrew
• Re: RSG
• Re: Avodah V5 #12
• Rav Dessler's Shita on Cinuch
• Re: RSG
• Moridim Kippa
• Re: RSG
• Re: Avodah V5 #16

I would like to not a nuance of the CI/REED (that's Chazon Ish/ R' E. E.
Dessler)  philosophy of education. To the best of my understanding, the
CI/REED were not anti-parnosso, nor anti-craft/trade/farmwork. I think you
must go back to the Nefesh Ha'Chaim for that philosophy. Rather, they were
against easy access to *higher* and, more importantly *formal* and
*degree-granting* education.

The CI/REED philosophy is very much pro-manual labor or even "unskilled"
business professions. The CI was very much involved with the nascent PAI and
AI moshavim and kibbutzim, and joined forces with Polish Chassidim to build
a city of artisans and shopkeepers. This is not necessarily a paean to
socialism (although it might be), as, we see in Chicago, many people can
become quite affluent in business occupations that require no degrees nor
significant advanced education. I think the CI encisioned a society in EY
where most people would work, constructively, in occupations ranging from
farms to shoemaking, from factories to groceries, with a small but leading
Torah elite.

I do not know where he assumed the physicians and lawyers would come from -
perhaps from the German Jews, perhaps from the Chillonim.

REED was prescribing a similar path for British Jewry.

One of the problems is that technology, the job market, wage structures, and
the market, have developed in ways that require, perhaps, some corrections.

But I have no idea what this has to do with the KIR (Kids at Risk) issue.
These kids are at risk way before all these issues are concretized.

BTW, a fascinating tidbit about the CI, although I am not 100% sure I credit
it, is that the former RY at Sha'alvim told us that he himself heard the CI
say that he could not accept that the fledgling State of Israel would last
more than ten years. V'duk.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

RE Weiss wrote:

>> A Chabadnik, who invited me for a Friday night dinner whilst I was in yeshiva
in Israel, quoted the Chofetz Chaim in his sefer "Tiferes ha-adam" (or is it 
Tiferes yisrael? I'm not sure) which sounded similar to what
Carl was saying.>>

Tiferes Ha'adam.  It's a short kuntress on peyos and beards and is in Kol Kisvei
Chafetz Chaim.

Gil Student
gil.student@citicorp.com

Yes. Those interested let me know if you want Word or WP format.

A word of caution: The JO essay has typos where their word processing
program choked on Hebrew words. Yours might too. But there are relatively
few words in Hebrew, I think less than ten.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 8:36 AM
Subject: RSG


> >
> > The April issue of the JO includes an essay co-authored by fellow Avodah
> > member R' Ari Z. Zivotofsky and myself on the RSG-RABM controversy. Much
of
> > the material was developed and honed in deliberations on Avodah. Thank
you
> > all very much for your input and assistance!
> >
>
> Is an electronic version available?
>
> Eli Turkel
>

The Rambam brings the din of 'kol hamarbeh harei zeh 
meshubach' in two places: in 7:2 as a general rule for
the mitzva of haggadah, and interestingly as a seperate
din 7:6 in being doreish the parsha of arami oved avi 
as much as possible.   

Not sure why the need to repeat the din as a specific
prat of the chiyuv to be doresh arami oved.

-Chaim B.

In Avodah V5#14, ALustiger wrote:
> It should be mentioned that despite R. Schwab's response, the Torah Im
Derekh Eretz educational approach, has waned, even within Breuer's. The
number of Yeshiva High School graduates learning during the day and going
to Brooklyn College at night, de rigeur at Breuer's approximately 25 hears
ago, is rare today. <
It should be mentioned that the approach of
Rav Schwab z'tz'l' to TIDE, as exemplified by
YRSRH grad.s continuing to learn at "Breuer's"
during the day and going to college (e.g. Brooklyn)
at night, was not universally held within the YRSRH
administration or by its rebbeyim, much less the
community.  To get back off this tangent, I think
you are correct in noting the vast difference between
the educational philosophy of Rav Dessler z'tz'l' and
that of any approach to TIDE one cares to consider,
and I also believe that _any_ l'shaim Shomayim approach
possesses drawbacks that will result in actual
problem cases if it isn't tailored to the needs and talents
of individual talmidim (admittedly, far more easily said
than done).  To get back to "Breuer's," the community did,
and still does, agree on the importance of the
Torah/Avodah/G'milus Chassodim chut ham'shuleshes --
without the preaching and practice of these Big Three, any
approach will not meet with success.

ESWeiss replied in V5#15:
> I'd just like to remark that in an unrelated sichas mussar, R' Yitzchak
Aizik Sher zl, of the Slobodka yeshiva, says pretty firmly that Chazal were
insistent upon diversifying education and that different people require
different options. <
IMHO, it's axiomatic that different folks require
different strokes.  Again, no matter the approach,
allowing some room for individuality (as quoted above
in Rav Schwab's name, we're from different sh'votim)
is vital...and quite challenging to put into practice in a classroom.

All the best (including wishes for a Chag Pesach
Kosher v'Someach) from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ

	I was looking over the Rambam's that Michah menytioned in regard to
Mah Nishtana and I few haaros came to mind. 
	     A) In Chametz U'matzah 7:1 the Rambam writes that there is a
mitzvas aseh to be misaper in yitzias mitzrayim. In 7:2 the rambam then
writes it is a mitzvah to tell your children even if they don't ask. 
	      My question is what does the Rambam mean in 7:2. Is the
mitzvah of v'higadata l'binchah a seperate mitzvah aside from sippur or is
the Rambam just qualifying what the mitzvah of sippur is? If he is just
qualifying it why does he start out with "It is a mitzvah to tell your
children". In sefer hamitzvos the Rambam writes it all as one mitzvah
(Mitzvah 157). 
	       B) In 7:3 the Rambam writes you should do shinuim at the
seder to cause your children to ask "Mah Nishtana Halaylah Hazeh"
	            An example of this is giving out nuts and clearing the
table.
	         Two haaross on this.First of all the Rambam doesn't say the
child will ask the the whole nusach of Mah Nishtana. In fact he doesn't
bring in the nusach till 8:2 and then he says it is something the Koreih
says. It seems that the child isn't expected to ask the "4 questions".
Rather we want him to be aware that there is something different about this
night and that will lead into the father explaining all about yitzias
mitzrayim. (I believe this is what Michah was referring to in his post). My
second point is if what I wrote  is incorrect and the Rambam means that the
child asks the 4 Qquestions how is giving out nuts and clearing the table
going to make the child ask the 4 questions- they are not related.
	         C) It seems from what I wrote above that the questions the
child asks are spontaneous (as opposed to the 4 questions mentioned in 8:2
which are not spontaneous-as Michah already pointed out). However the loshon
pf the Rambam in 8:2 is strange. He says "We pour the 2nd cup and here the
child asks" This is mashma there is a set time and place for the child to
ask his questions. But then it is not spontaneous. 

	What seems to come out is along the lines what Michah wanted to
suggest. There are 2  ideas here- one is to get your kid to ask
questions-any type of question-that will lead into a discussion of yitzias
mitzrayim. Secondly there is the actual nusach of the haggadah in which the
"4 questions" should be said.

On Thu, Apr 13, 2000 at 03:06:58PM +0200, Carl M. Sherer wrote:
:                             But I don't think you can compare an 
: MO child becoming Charedi (which in its various stripes is the only 
: other "branch of the fruhm community" that I know) to an MO child 
: becoming not fruhm.

I'm not comparing the kids, I'm suggesting that they have similar motivations.

:                     A child of MO parents who becomes Charedi 
: (or vice versa) is generally not cut off from the parents or from their 
: former peers as is a child who opts out altogether. Let alone a child 
: who not only drops out of fruhm society but out of society in 
: general.

I know of a case here in the US (where things may be different) where the
parents are more disappointed in the child who left the derech than the
one who ended up "all farchnukt" in kollel, but they have less of a problem
maintaining a relationship with the former.

I think your last statement is only one kind of drop out. The kid who ends
up toying with drugs. There is also the one who starts with hanging out with
the neighborhood kids and continues with not bothering to put on a yarmulka
at home through not keeping Shabbos or kosher once they move out.

:             I think our children who leave O R"L are doing so out of 
: boredom with O's strictures and an inability to feel and appreciate 
: their meaning. I don't think they're leaving MO because they feel 
: too cut off from Charedim or vice versa.

Yehudah Poch said the same. I was suggesting that there are many kids who
are unable to feel and appreciate the lifestyle they were raised in but who
would be more reachable if they had an opportunity to feel and appreciate
other forms of O. The Yeshivish kid who lacks the ability to sit and learn
may find his answers in Chassidus (to bring a third community into the
picture). Looking at Potok's "The Chosen", perhaps Reuven Malther would have
stayed on the derech if mod-O wasn't presented as kim'at C. I believe that's
what both fathers' intent was when they supported the friendship. I think
the Rebbe realized this just one step too late.

:                                        OTOH, I doubt telling him 
: to be an "ehrlicher yid" is going to change his attitude a whole lot 
: either. I'm not sure the father is wrong in that respect.

Telling him, no. Teaching him, perhaps. But by this point he was already
told that the ideal is "vehigisah bo yomam valaylah", and "balebatishe
questions" are foolish ones. What does that say about ba'alei bayis?

:                    That you can cut your children off from every bit 
: of "pernicious" outside influence and still R"L have them go off the 
: derech.

But you should still do what best influences the odds. Which may not be
cutting off all influence. A kid who thirsts for a broader range of
experiences would find such a lifestyle stifling. Do we really want him
sneaking to the library behind our backs?

: I don't see a lot of MO kids going off and becoming C.

Again, this might be an American thing. But of the kids I grew up with, of
those who were mod-O, a number are now non-O -- at least behaviorally
C, if not by formal affiliation.

: Someone anonymously sent me emails telling me about kids being 
: arrested for drug dealing in shuls in Boro Park and Monsey. 

In the case of Monsey, there was a HUGE campaign in the Chassidishe communities
to make it clear that turning in a drug dealer isn't being oveir on mesirah.
B"H it worked.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 12-Apr-00: Revi'i, Metzora
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 23b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 25

> BTW it's interesting to note that the first 3 letters of Sarid's name
> in Hebew are RT for "Shem Reshoim Yirkov."
> And if Sarid doesn't qualify for this Kelolo - pray tell us - who does?

I had never before noticed this, perhaps because Sarid is spelled with a
"sin" rather than a "shin."

Readers of Israeli Torah journals may be familiar with the work of a
talmid hakham named Rav Yosi Sarid, who is, I am assured, not identical
with the politician with the same name. I wonder if anyone is interested
in sharing with him this profound insight into the true meaning of his
name as seen from an authentic Torah perspective.

As Iyyov says (chapter 6): "Ma nimretsu imrei yosher ve-gomer."

In a message dated 4/13/00 3:12:51 AM Central Daylight Time, 
owner-avodah@aishdas.org writes:

<< Subject: Re: Why do we have to empty our garbage cans before Pesach?
 
You can't make something hefker if it is still on your property.  Some take 
it 
 to the side of the road before bitul so that it is no longer on your 
property.  
 Others pour ammonia or some other poisonous liquid or powder onto the 
garbage to
 make it aino ra'ui le'achilas kelev (although presumably R. Blumenkrantz 
would 
 disagree with that method). >>
If the actual garbage cans are owned by the city, would there still be an 
issue about ownership, even if the receptacle was sitting on your property?
Barry S.

Regarding the chiyuv of learning Hebrew (grammar) see: R. Yaakov Emden
in Migdal Oz 16-17 ("dikduk is an instrument that serves the entire body
of the Torah"); and the Hakdama of the GRA to Orach Chaim.

Josh

I'd like to see a copy if possible.

----- Original Message -----
From: Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: RSG


> Yes. Those interested let me know if you want Word or WP format.
>
> A word of caution: The JO essay has typos where their word processing
> program choked on Hebrew words. Yours might too. But there are relatively
> few words in Hebrew, I think less than ten.
>
> Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
> http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il>
> To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 8:36 AM
> Subject: RSG
>
>
> > >
> > > The April issue of the JO includes an essay co-authored by fellow
Avodah
> > > member R' Ari Z. Zivotofsky and myself on the RSG-RABM controversy.
Much
> of
> > > the material was developed and honed in deliberations on Avodah. Thank
> you
> > > all very much for your input and assistance!
> > >
> >
> > Is an electronic version available?
> >
> > Eli Turkel
> >
>
>

In a message dated 4/12/00 5:00:28 AM Central Daylight Time, 
owner-avodah@aishdas.org writes:

<< Subject: Religious Secular Relations (was Re: RYBS criticising secular
 Israeli leadership)
 
 
 > On 11 Apr 00, at 12:46, Daniel B. Schwartz wrote:
 >
 > >  While quoting pithy statements of Oliver Wendell Holmes
 > > > works wonders in academic arguments in American law schools, it
 > > > is totally detached from Israeli reality.
 > >
 > >     Great.  Anyone doing anything proactive to change that reality?
 >
 > What do you propose anyone do about it?
 
     Apologize for one thing.  Take the risk, show a little weakness and
 admit a human failing.  Is such a tactic fraught with risk?  Of course it
 is.  But it may be worthwhile.  
  >>
First problem is attitudinal, i.e. that some think they have the 
"inalienable" right to criticize ROY or any other of the Gedolei Yisroel; To 
second guess their motives; Perhaps this is only one of the reasons why we're 
mired in galut, in Israel or shmutz La'aretz, because we're blinded to the 
overall good that our Gedolim perform every day, within our view or not. 
These are NOT elected "officials" who are "obligated" to an electorate; 
They've earned their "stripes," so, what right do some have to impose 
fahrkrumpter democratic "values'" on them? How dare anyone relegate our 
Gedolim to National Enquirer or the shekker accountability of the general 
media?  Yes, they are human, and do make errors, but, how do some get so 
presumptive,and judgmental, and, downright arrogant to our leaders to bring 
them down to OUR level? Why would any Talmud Chocham EVER want to aspire to 
Godol status? Only to face this barrage from the chilonim AND from his own? 
To be treated like a low-life politician? How deep into galut we've 
slithered............
Barry S.

>I would like to respectfully disagree with Arnie's conclusion that RW chinuch 
>is the cause of the drop out problem. The reason being, contrary to popular 
>belief, the RW chinuch is NOT Desslerian in nature. The large majority of 
>non-chasidic RW yeshivot offer a full high school curriculum. 

The chinuch in RW American yeshivos may be non-Desslerian, but only by
default -"English" is forced on to the Yeshiva curriculum for various
external reasons, not because of any intrinsic appreciation of secular
studies or due to a rejection of R. Dessler's approach. However, the
philosophy of RW Yeshivos in general is "super-Desslerian" in it's rejection
of the significance of secular studies, and goes beyond what R. Dessler
wrote in his teshuva.  All the issurim of chillul Hashem somehow do not seem
to apply when it comes to "English" in yeshiva - it seems to be a mitzva to
show chutzpa to English teachers and to cheat as a way to demonstrate the
utter insignificance of secular studies in one's life.

>Some like the 
>Philadelphia yeshiva (where I think Arnie learned) take these studies very 
>seriously, and even offer courses such as French etc..

Philadelphia is an exception, but again not because of any rejection of R.
Dessler's philosophy. To the Roshei Yeshiva in Philadelphia, since "English"
is forced upon them, bochurim will have to work and not fool around during
"English", sine you cannot create a talmid chochom from someone who fools
around 3 hours/day. But this is far from placing any intrinsic value on
"English" per se, as R. Schwab does in his response to R. Dessler's teshuva
(which I did not quote in my original post).

-Arnie Lustiger

Format?
----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel B. Schwartz <SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 10:18 AM
Subject: Re: RSG


> I'd like to see a copy if possible.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer
> <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
> To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 10:03 AM
> Subject: Re: RSG
>
>
> > Yes. Those interested let me know if you want Word or WP format.
> >
> > A word of caution: The JO essay has typos where their word processing
> > program choked on Hebrew words. Yours might too. But there are
relatively
> > few words in Hebrew, I think less than ten.
> >
> > Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
> > http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il>
> > To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
> > Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 8:36 AM
> > Subject: RSG
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > The April issue of the JO includes an essay co-authored by fellow
> Avodah
> > > > member R' Ari Z. Zivotofsky and myself on the RSG-RABM controversy.
> Much
> > of
> > > > the material was developed and honed in deliberations on Avodah.
Thank
> > you
> > > > all very much for your input and assistance!
> > > >
> > >
> > > Is an electronic version available?
> > >
> > > Eli Turkel
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

>>P.S. It is very important to note that the "moridim Kippa" phenomenon among
>>the Israeli Modern Orthodox , a phenomenon that I understand afflicts 5-10%
>>of religious Zionist homes, clearly cannot be included in this rubric -
>>professional careers and study are encouraged in Israel. In America, Modern
>>Orthodox parents have more often glorified professional careers at the
>>expense of striving to be a gadol baTorah.
>
>I disagree.
>With all due respect to JO's articles, and I believe that the issue is one
>that every Jew must pay a great deal of attention, I believe that the two
>trends have the same root.

Speaking from outside Israel, I only have second hand knowledge of the
Moridim Kippa phenomenon, but my understanding of some of the reasons is as
follows:

I understand that generally, "moridim Kippa" happens after a year or two in
the army - it is a simple process of assimilation into an Israeli culture
that the MO already feel somewhat comfortable with. In addition, there is a
great disillusion with "greater Eretz Yisrael" as a major focal point of
religious commitment in light of today's realities where more and more land
is being given to the Arabs: the messianic vision of RW religious Zionism is
being disproven by the facts on the ground. Interestingly, I have heard that
many of the more modern Religious Zionist parents do not seem all that
concerned when this happens to their children - the kids still go to the
army, and take their places in Israeli society, which to the parents is most
important. I am personally aware of this latter situation among many in the
American MO community in Rehovot, for example.

The spiral into drugs and promiscuity that seems to accompany the American
RW "Children at Risk" does not necessarily follow in Israel. The rejection
of frumkeit seems more ideologically based in Israel. 

Arnie Lustiger

WP8 or lower

DANIEL B. SCHWARTZ, ESQ. SPECIALIZING IN ALL ASPECTS
OF MATRIMONIAL, FAMILY AND COMMERCIAL LITIGATION FOR
FURTHER INFORMATION INQUIRE AT:
SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET
----- Original Message -----
From: Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: RSG


> Format?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Daniel B. Schwartz <SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
> To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 10:18 AM
> Subject: Re: RSG
>
>
> > I'd like to see a copy if possible.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer
> > <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
> > To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
> > Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 10:03 AM
> > Subject: Re: RSG
> >
> >
> > > Yes. Those interested let me know if you want Word or WP format.
> > >
> > > A word of caution: The JO essay has typos where their word processing
> > > program choked on Hebrew words. Yours might too. But there are
> relatively
> > > few words in Hebrew, I think less than ten.
> > >
> > > Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
> > > http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il>
> > > To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
> > > Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 8:36 AM
> > > Subject: RSG
> > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The April issue of the JO includes an essay co-authored by fellow
> > Avodah
> > > > > member R' Ari Z. Zivotofsky and myself on the RSG-RABM
controversy.
> > Much
> > > of
> > > > > the material was developed and honed in deliberations on Avodah.
> Thank
> > > you
> > > > > all very much for your input and assistance!
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Is an electronic version available?
> > > >
> > > > Eli Turkel
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:06:58 +0200
> From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
> Subject: Re: The "Children at Risk" issues of the Jewish Observer
>
> On 13 Apr 00, at 7:34, Micha Berger wrote:
>
> > However, as I said last time you quoted this statistic, the number
you give
> > is not that meaningful. It sounds like you're saying 20% of those
raised
> > DL leave Orthodoxy. However, what the numbers really say is that
20% of those
> > in a DL school, including those who are not from observant homes,
do so.
> > Without knowing what fraction of those 20% were ever Orthodox (and
how would
> > one define that?), I don't know what to make of the number.
>
> In Israel, non-observant parents would not be sending their children
> to DL schools (unless they were Sfardim sending their children to
> Shas schools). I think it's safe to assume that those 20% who
> dropped out of the DL schools came from DL homes.

Excuse me, Carl, but this simply not true.  Going back to when I was
in elementary school in Petah Tikva, at least 20% of the class were
not religious, and I think the percentage was larger.  Of course this
included a high percentage of Sephardi kids whose parents kept Niddah
and Kashrut -- in the home, and Shabbat to a limited extent (shul +
driving and tv).
In highschool, the percentages didn't change by much.

Even today, in my youngest daughter's class there are at least 10%
whose fathers don't wear kippot, and the percentage could be higher (I
don't know all the parents).

From what I know of my friends, most of those from non-religious homes
either became fully frum in highschool or lasted till graduation and
left.   Among the graduates of Ulpanot, I know of approx. 1-3 cases
per year group (that is 1 out of 120 girls) that have left frumkeit.
With the men, it apparently was consonant with their choice of army
service -- very few who went on to Hesder left, and among those who
dropped the kippa in the army, the majority came from Massorti (not C)
families who sent them to Yeshivot b/c the local highschool wasn't up
to par.

In the Development towns, the issue of being religious and going to a
Dati Leumi school is even more disparate, as in some schools over 50%
of the highschool is made up of kids whose parents are not comletely
shomer Shabbat.

> > The mod-O problem is very different. Thinking back to my American
mod-O peers
> > who left O, the problem seems more to be an inability to convey
mod-O as an
> > ideal, and not as a compromise. It therefore fails to inspire
loyalty. Most
> > of the disaffected find a home in other branches of the frum
community, some
> > choose opting out of it.
>
> I agree with you that MO has a problem presenting itself as an
> ideal and not a compromise. But I don't think you can compare an
> MO child becoming Charedi (which in its various stripes is the only
> other "branch of the fruhm community" that I know) to an MO child
> becoming not fruhm. A child of MO parents who becomes Charedi
> (or vice versa) is generally not cut off from the parents or from
their
> former peers as is a child who opts out altogether. Let alone a
child
> who not only drops out of fruhm society but out of society in
> general.

Unfortunately, I know of more and more "Machzirim BeTeshuva" who
influence their students to the extent that all contact is lost with
the family, whether MO or non-religious.    So this too is not
completely true.

[del for bw]

From discussions with my teenagers and their impressions, and also my
impressions from questions raised in Yeshivot and Ulpanot during
lectures my husband gives, while a minority leave b/c of "LeTei'avon"
to a certain extent -- not finding the spiritual connection to mitzvot
and considering them an unrewarding burden, the majority leave b/c
they asked questions and weren't satisfied with the answers they got.
My husband has been giving lectures for many years, also to Chareidi
groups, and he has found that the same questions are asked by all --
unfortunately the same lack of answers exists all over, as well.

My husband wrote 2 books intended to answer at least some of the
questions these teenagers ask  -- at least on an entry  level (the
first is Bar Mitzvah level, the 2nd was intended for highschool, but
is read a lot in Yeshivot Gedolot belonging to all groups).  By the
letters we get and the requests for copies -- we see that the schools
have still not found a way to truly incorporate time and attention to
these questions into the curricula.

We still have lots to do.

Shoshana L. Boublil

********************


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