Avodah Mailing List

Volume 05 : Number 019

Friday, April 14 2000

• Re: Avodah V5 #18
• Toupees and Beged Ishah
• Email file (RICE.TXT)
• Re: Toupees and Beged Ishah
• Kids At Risk
• Article
• C, was: sefardim and ashkenazim
• Re: Article
• ROY and RSL
• RYBS criticising secular Israeli leadership
• Re: Email file (RICE.TXT)
• Re: The "Children at Risk" issues of the Jewish Observer
• Re: Article
• Re: RYBS criticising secular Israeli leadership

(see below)

> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 21:34:41 +0200
> From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
> Subject: Re: The "Children at Risk" issues of the Jewish Observer
>
> On 13 Apr 00, at 13:11, Micha Berger wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Apr 13, 2000 at 07:55:08PM +0200, Carl M. Sherer wrote:
> > : P.S. Let me ask you all something. What do you all tell your
kids if
> > : they ask you what is important in life?
> >
> > Contantly working to improve three things: one's self, one's
relationship
> > with HKBH, and one's relationship with others. Which is why I
quote Derech
> > haChaim 1:2 so often, because that's his peshat in Torah, Avodah
> > and Gemillus Chassadim. The Charter for haOlim seems to be
structured
> > around this understanding of the triad as well.
>
> How young do you think you can start giving them this rather deep
> formula? My credo to my children is similar, but I put it in more
> concrete terms, and I am still working on finding a Gmillus
> Chasadim that means something more than putting a shekel in the
> pushka every day.

I really couldn't resist this one (let me know what Adina thinks):

As Gemillut Chassadim reflects one's relationship with others, let
them start "local" -- teach the kids that picking up their laundry and
taking it themselves to the laundry bin is also Gemillut Chassadim --
within the family.

Of course they are at the same time working on self -- Midot Tovot (Im
Lo Achshav Eimatay, for instance); and their relationship with Hashem
via keeping Kabed Et Avicha Ve'Et Imecha.

Think of the joy they can feel in that by performing such a simple
task --  they are fulfilling all three parts of the credo!!!

Chag Kasher Ve'Same'ach.

Shoshana L. Boublil


> - -- Carl
>
>
> Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
> Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
> Telephone 972-2-625-7751
> Fax 972-2-625-0461
> mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
> mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il
>
> Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
> Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
> Thank you very much.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:02:28 -0500
> From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
> Subject: Re: The "Children at Risk" issues of the Jewish Observer
>
> On Thu, Apr 13, 2000 at 09:34:41PM +0200, Carl M. Sherer wrote:
> : How young do you think you can start giving them this rather deep
> : formula? My credo to my children is similar, but I put it in more
> : concrete terms, and I am still working on finding a Gmillus
> : Chasadim that means something more than putting a shekel in the
> : pushka every day.
>
> I do as well, when they're younger. But by the time they can learn
on their
> own without a grownup I think they can understand the list of: You,
G-d,
> and other people. And I articulate it frequently to my preteens.
>
> BTW, I prefer pushing berachos rather than davening -- probably
because
> most of my kids aren't old enough to find the place in the siddur
for the
> few things they know yet. Also, berachos are constant.
>
> As for chessed, my kids are up to learning about sharing -- both
objects
> and right-of-way.
>
> - -mi
>
> - --
> Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 12-Apr-00: Revi'i,
Metzora
> micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H
> http://www.aishdas.org
Rosh-Hashanah 23b
> For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.
Melachim-II 25
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 23:08:32 +0200
> From: "Shoshana L. Boublil" <toramada@zahav.net.il>
> Subject: Re: Rav Dessler's Shita on Chinuch
>
> > Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 08:59:45 -0500
> > From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
> <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
> > Subject: Rav Dessler's Shita on Chinuch
> [del for bw]
>
> > BTW, a fascinating tidbit about the CI, although I am not 100%
sure
> I credit
> > it, is that the former RY at Sha'alvim told us that he himself
heard
> the CI
> > say that he could not accept that the fledgling State of Israel
> would last
> > more than ten years. V'duk.
>
> A different tale I heard from my FIL, who personally knew Rav
Hertzog
> Z"L.
>
> When the Germans were known to be closing in on Israel, Rav Hertzog,
> who was Chief Rabbi of Israel at the time (elected ~1935), was urged
> to leave the country and go to England.
>
> Rav Hertzog pored over the books all night, and came back in the
> morning and told them:  Churban Bayit Sh'lishi -- Lo YiHiye.  And he
> stayed.
>
> Shortly afterwards the Germans were halted before entering the Land
of
> Israel.
>
> Years later, when my husband was invited to present one of his books
> to the then President Hertzog, my FIL repeated the story to him --
and
> President Hertzog confirmed it.
>
> Chag Kasher Ve'Same'ach,
>
> Shoshana L.  Boublil
>
> >
> > Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
> > http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of Avodah V5 #18
> ********************
>
>
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>

The 3rd Lubavitcher Rebbe (whose Yahrtzeit comes up this Tuesday), the
Tzemach Tzedek held that a male being clean shaven is also begged isha. 
Somewhat relatedly, am I the only person who rolls his eyes when I see
someone double-park and see someone wearing a yarmulke walking out.?  
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 11:02:54 PDT
> From: "aviva fee" <aviva613@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Why is a toupee for a man not considered begged ishah? 
> 
> Hello:
> 
> Why is a toupee for a man not considered begged ishah?
> 
> Why should a toupee for a man be any better/worse than pants on a 
> woman?
> 
> The MB states that while a man may wear a toupee, it is nonetheless 
> moris 
> eyin to ea w/ a toupee but w/o a kippa.
> 
> /af
> 
> 
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
>

This is from a shiur in medical halacha we recently had at the hospital:


   If one is gluten intolerant, one should make an effort to find oat or
   spelt matza. If, however, one can't obtain non-wheat matza, one is
   exempt from the requirement of eating matza the first night of Pessach
   (see: Chazon Ovadiah 173). If one's physician prohibited the person from
   eating gluten matza and the person ate wheat matza in spite of the
   warning, he has not fulfilled the mitzva (see: SHU"T Mahari Asad OC
   160; Tzitz Eliezer XII 43 and the eating is called an *aveira*
   [see: Maharam Shick OC 260; Minchat Yitzchak IV 102 #2]. It is even
   forbidden to make a bracha over the matza (see: Mahari Asad Orach
   Chaim 160). See also: Sdei Chemed, Maarechet Chametz U'Matza 14:14).

   Gluten-sensitive enteropathy can present with devastating malabsorption,
   steatorrhea, diarrhea, weight loss, as well as extraintestinal
   manifestations such as: osteopenic bone disease, secondary
   hypopituitarism, adrenal insufficiency, purpura, hyperpigmentation,
   peripheral neuropathy, xerophthalmia, dermatitis, secondary
   hyperparathyroidism, bleeding, microcytic or macrocytic anemia, and
   edema.

   For an Ashkenazi ill person who is gluten sensitive and requires a
   rice (kitniyot) diet, there is a leniency provided the following is
   carried out:

   1) a special pot is reserved for the rice (and set aside special
      dishes);

   2) the rice is cooked by placing it in boiling water (one is not
      permitted to place cold water and rice in a pot and then heat
      to boiling);

   3) before cooking, the rice is checked grain by grain for presence
      of any of the 5 forbidden grains [for anyone who has ever visited
      a wholesale grain market and has seen 200 pound sacks of rice in
      burlap bags, knows what I'm referring to].

     Marei mekomot: Chatam Sofer OC 122; Sdei Chemed Maarechet Chametz
                    u'Matza 6 # 10; Chayei Adam Klal 127 #6; Maharam
                    Shick OC 241; Melamed l'Ho'il OC 98; Kaf Ha'Chaim
                    453 # 27.



Josh

Alan Davidson wrote:

> Somewhat relatedly, am I the only person who rolls his eyes when I see
> someone double-park and see someone wearing a yarmulke walking out.?
>

No not by any means. One might say that this and other such offenses border
on chillul hashem.  There is a chap (a musmach to boot) who davens at this
particular shul in Chicago and parks regularly in a cross-walk at the
corner and at the same time at a fire hydrant. Often have I wondered what
the goyim must think when the see this.
Chag Kosher V'someach.
steve
P.S. RYGB should write an article on this subject for JO or JA.

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Gil Student wrote: <<However, teaching more or different information is =
not what needs to be done.  These children need to have their EMOTIONAL =
needs attended to, not their INTELLECTUAL needs.>>

I would respectfully disagree, to a point.  First of all, finding "the =
one" issue that is being mishandled seems to imply a 'chanoch lana'ar al =
pi derech zeh' philosophy to which much of the problem is currently =
being attributed.  Secondly, while certainly there are emotional issues =
involved in many cases of youth at risk, it does happen that some leave =
because they honestly do not believe the 13 ikkarim.  (This is in =
addition to the emotional damage sometimes inflicted by teachers unable =
to adequately answer 'deep' questions.)  I can't say that I have great =
philosophical answers myself, but argument from design won't convince =
everyone, and I think that having materials available to address these =
questions is imporant.

Another issue that rankles at me somewhat is the following, which may be =
just my own (mis)interpretation.  It seems as though one response to the =
problem of youth at risk is encouraging healthy and supportive parenting =
as a means to keeping your kids frum, rather than its being an (perhaps =
THE) end to itself.

Ramble, ramble, ramble.

Chag Kasher V'Sameach

Meyer

------=_NextPart_000_001D_01BFA581.E7F328A0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2722.2800" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Gil Student wrote: &lt;&lt;However, =
teaching more=20
or different information is not what needs to be done.&nbsp; These =
children need=20
to have their EMOTIONAL needs attended to, not their INTELLECTUAL=20
needs.&gt;&gt;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I would respectfully disagree, to a =
point.&nbsp;=20
First of all, finding "the one" issue that is being mishandled seems to =
imply a=20
'chanoch lana'ar al pi derech zeh' philosophy to which much of the =
problem is=20
currently being attributed.&nbsp; Secondly, while certainly there are =
emotional=20
issues involved in many cases of youth at risk, it does happen that some =
leave=20
because they honestly do not believe the 13 ikkarim.&nbsp; (This is in =
addition=20
to the emotional damage sometimes inflicted by teachers unable to =
adequately=20
answer 'deep' questions.)&nbsp; I can't say that I have great =
philosophical=20
answers myself, but&nbsp;argument from design won't convince everyone, =
and I=20
think that having materials available to address these questions is=20
imporant.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Another issue that rankles at me =
somewhat is the=20
following, which may be just my own (mis)interpretation.&nbsp; It seems =
as=20
though&nbsp;one response to the problem of youth at risk =
is&nbsp;encouraging=20
healthy and supportive parenting as a means to keeping your kids frum, =
rather=20
than its being an (perhaps THE) end to itself.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ramble, ramble, ramble.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Chag Kasher V'Sameach</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Meyer</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_001D_01BFA581.E7F328A0--

Is the article on RSG being posted?  Can it be?  Should we wait for the
JO to come out?

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 12:19:27 -0400
From: Sammy Ominsky <sambo@charm.net>
Subject: Re: sefardim and ashkenazim

<<Now I have to admit my shock. I didn't know these things either. 
Do Conservatives pulicize this information? Where is it documented? 

<snip>

<<but as for S"A, it just seems that their level of mizvah observance is
not "up to snuff". Are you saying they reject the entire concept of
codification of mizvot and thew performance thereof? That they *wouldn't*
be shomrei mizvot if they understood (read: were taught properly)?>>

	Not really sure this belongs on the list.
	
	You need to distinguish between the C leadership and its laity.  C
leadership indeed (does not) believe in what RET says they don't.  Many
of then are not mekayem mitzvos because they don't believe in them;  some
are mekayem because of "religious tradition" type of reasons;  some are
Orthodox in practice and in C for the money.  Same for Reform,   except
few or none are O in practice and R just for the money.

	C laity,  OTOH,  is the victim of the most abysmal ignorance in the
history of Judaism.  Same for Reform laity.  There is nothing in their
movement like the emphasis on study that is the hallmark of O,  and they
don't bother.  They attend C services when it's convenient,  either for
their conscience or their geography.  Learning about Yiddishkeit takes
too much time.  They might increase their observance if a proper kiruv
approach were taken;  teenagers and young adults are much less a victim
of this ignorance and more open to Jewish education.  Most of these are
truly tinokos shenishbu.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com
P.S.  D"Sh to the Barkais.

Too many footnotes to put on the list. I (more liekly, actually, Micha) will
put it on the aishdas website. In the meantime, I have already sent it to
all those who requested it in Word or WP format. I guess I can also send it
in HTML, if someone wants. But you must ask me soon, as we are leaving IY"H
to EY right after Shabbos.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 10:49 PM
Subject: Article


> Is the article on RSG being posted?  Can it be?  Should we wait for the
> JO to come out?
>
> Gershon
> gershon.dubin@juno.com
>

>Daniel B. Schwartz writes:  Subject: ROY and RSL

>It seems that ROY was machshiv RSL to a great degree
>and actively sought out dialogue with him.  I reject that ROY was
>unaware of JTS's "true nature" (as someone has suggested) due to his
>sephardic pedigree. ROY clearly must have been well aware of all the
>polemic against Conservative Judaism, and yet went to JTS to meet with
>RSL.  The question is what has precipitated his move to the right?"

I don't know how well it is known that Chaim Moshe Shapiro
(and I think Zerach Warhaftig as well) when visiting the US, had
audiences with the Satmar Rebbe zt'l.

I don't think anyone would in any way suggest that by agreeing
to meet them, the SR gave his approval to the Mizrachi - or that
he had  swayed to the left.

SBA

From Shlomo B Abeles

Carl M. Sherer wrote:  Subject: RYBS criticising secular Israeli
leadership

> >Where are all the other Gedolim - from all sectors of religious
Jewry?
> >Aren't they just as concerned as ROY at what Sarid is trying to do?

>In all fairness, ROY is the only one of the Gedolim who is clearly in
control of a political party.

Do you need to head a political party to be "Mocheh?"

>UTJ (Aguda and Degel) is no longer in the coalition, and has
>nowhere near the clout in terms of numbers of MK's that Shas has.

So what? I think it was the Brisker Rav zt'l  who said on such a
situation:
"Az es tut vei, shreit men!"

>Mafdal doesn't have the concept of Daas Torah ingrained the way the
Charedi
>parties do, and it is doubtful that statements by RavShapira or Rav
Eliyahu
>would have anywhere near the impact that ROY's statements have.

Ditto. It must hurt - even them - what Sarid is trying to achieve.

>...The Ashkenazi Gedolim, with the exception of Rav Schach shlita, who
>is not well, seem to have a policy of not getting involved in anything
that is related to politics.

Being Mocheh against Sarid is *politics*? Zeit Mochel.

>I have no doubt, however, that all of the Gedolim,across the board,
support ROY.

Neither have I. But wouldn't it look so much better - If dozens of Torah

leaders also gave their opinions on Sarid publicly.

>...if they actually try to charge him R"L. I think you will see a
demonstration
>that will make last year's demonstration against the Supreme Court
>seem like a playground picnic.

I hope you are right. (But wasn't something similar threatened re
charging Deri?)

PS  We have recently been discussing "Velamalshinim". I have checked up
the sources - the main being the Beis Yosef (118) beshem Rashi who
states that
it refers to "*Yehudim* sh'einom maaminim bedas Moshe shehoysoh min
hashomaim..."

A Guten Shabbos

SBA

--- BACKON@vms.huji.ac.il wrote:

> 
>    Gluten-sensitive enteropathy can present with
> devastating malabsorption,
>    steatorrhea, diarrhea, weight loss, as well as
> extraintestinal
>    manifestations such as: osteopenic bone disease,
> secondary
>    hypopituitarism, adrenal insufficiency, purpura,
> hyperpigmentation,
>    peripheral neuropathy, xerophthalmia, dermatitis,
> secondary
>    hyperparathyroidism, bleeding, microcytic or
> macrocytic anemia, and
>    edema.

Gee... and I always thouight that it was on tuesday.

HM

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites.
http://invites.yahoo.com

R' Aryeh E Stein wrote:
> I have heard others attribute the "Children at Risk" plague to a far more
> widespread (although not as noticeable) epidemic: the fact that many of us,
> while "frum in practice," are "spiritually dead" on the inside...

The expression used during the '97 Agudah convention was FFH -- frum from
habit.

R' Carl Sherer wrote:
: This is precisely what R. Ahron Kaufman argued in the November 
: JO. He described a situation where tfillos are a bunch of mumbo 
: jumbo with the people saying them having no idea what they are 
: saying. 

Tefillah is a large part of it.

Perhaps we should be launching an email list on which we can learn tefillah,
from peirush hamilim to greater depth.

But tefillah isn't all of it.

If I didn't believe this problem was very real and very serious, AishDas
wouldn't exist. For that matter, this very email list exists to add emotional
and intellectual depth to shemiras hamitzvos. (Even if the direction it
actually takes doesn't tend that way.) To quote the first paragraph of the
membership agreement:
} The Avodah mailing list hosts a chevrah that focusses on analysis of
} hashkafah, avodas Hashem, ta'amei hamitzvos, lomdus, machshavah, and
} halachah -- with an emphasis on the places where halachah, machshavah
} and hargashah meet.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 12-Apr-00: Revi'i, Metzora
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 23b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 25

> Too many footnotes to put on the list. I (more liekly, actually, Micha) will
> put it on the aishdas website. In the meantime, I have already sent it to
> all those who requested it in Word or WP format. I guess I can also send it
> in HTML, if someone wants. But you must ask me soon, as we are leaving IY"H
> to EY right after Shabbos.


Have a nice trip/Pesach.  E-mail me the article in Word
format please (BTW: Word users should be able to open
WP documents - don't know if the reverse is true).

Have a Good Shabbos!
(P.S. You owe me/avodah a hesber of koreich).

On Thu, Apr 13, 2000 at 12:14:31AM +0200, Carl and Adina Sherer wrote:
:> PS: Could someone in Chicago who has R' Aharon's ear please relay for me the
:> following question (as stated):
:>     What do we do now that even the watch-fob is unimportant to them?

: Can you repost the analogy (to me privately if you think everyone 
: else remembers it)? I remember that it was quite clever.

R' Aharon Soloveitchik shlit"a gave the following mashal (+/- ammendations
made by my memory), to explain his position on the sanctity of "secular"
Zionism.

During WWII, a family raised just enough money to get one son out of Europe.
They gave him the family heirloom pocketwatch, contacted the Jewish Agency in
NY, and put the young boy on a boat. The boy makes it to NY, and the Agency
finds a home to raise the child.

He grows up, and in time, forgot his original family's faces. But he still
held onto the watch, and loved it for the attachment it represented.

Time marches on. He no longer even remembers how many siblings he had,
or anything about his parents. But he still lovingly polishes his watch,
keeps it wound, cares for it. You always saw him pull it from his pocket.

The man (no longer a boy) hits on hard times. He was forced to sell the
watch. But still, he held onto the fob at the end of the chain. He was very
attached to that watchfob even though he remembered almost nothing of what
it represented.

40 years later, a brother who survived the war finds him. The reunion is
awkward, the man doesn't remember any of that. During the reunion, he takes
the fob out of his pocket. The brother cries, realizing that even though
he doesn't consciously remember his family, the feelings are still there,
expressed on a peice of gold.


-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 12-Apr-00: Revi'i, Metzora
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 23b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 25

********************


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