Avodah Mailing List

Volume 05 : Number 047

Sunday, May 21 2000

• Re: Esav sonei liYa'akov
• Re: Hakaras hatov
• Entering into a safek l'chatchila
• Re: ayin tachas ayin redux
• Usha
• Halacha beyadua
• Re: Halacha beyadua
• Re: Bach, Beethoven & the Halakhic Man Avodah V5 #45
• Re Bach, Beethoven & Halkha
• Re: Entering into a safek l'chatchila
• Correction
• Re: Entering into a safek l'chatchila

In a message dated 5/18/00 4:54:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
micha@aishdas.org writes:

<< 
 I have no basis, I didn't even consciously decide that stance. It was what
 my head came up with as I read the text. So, perhaps you are right.
 
 
 I should point out that not only to RaShbY need to hide from Edom, remember
 why he hid -- because he said that anything good they did for Israel they did
 for their own purposes. He certainly held that the Edom of his day had no
 love for Yaakov.
  >>

Your point about generalizing to Galus Edom is interesting, although I am not 
sure I buy it. 
Your point about R' Shimon Bar Yochai would fit into Barry Schwartz's 
approach to Church-Jewish relations.

Jordan Hirsch

On 18 May 00, at 15:29, Gershon Dubin wrote:

> Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 23:09:17 +0200
> From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
> Subject: Re: Hacarat hatov
> 
> <<Even before Moshe Rabbeinu, you could look at Leah ("HaPaam 
> odeh es Hashem" when she named Yehuda), Avraham (when he 
> insisted that Aner, Eshkol and Mamrei get their portions after the 
> war of the kings - maybe the first recorded instance in which a 
> human gave thanks to another human), Noach (korbanos after the 
> mabul) and Hevel (korbanos - implicitly at least a korban toda?).>>
> 
> 	The earliest instance is actually the opposite.  Adam Harishon said
> "haisha asher nasata imadi" and blamed her for everything.  Rashi
> comments there that he was kafuy tova.

That's true, but I think you can distinguish between someone being 
actively kafuy tova and someone who is just not makir tova.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

>>>Sounds like Tos.  assumes one is permitted 
l'chatchila to be machnis  oneself into a situation of
safek?...Yes! see S"A Horav (ibid) 12.<<<

This is less of a chiddush than I originally thought -
by 2 days Y"T we say noldah bazeh mutteres bazeh even
though you can avoid eating the egg entirely and not
enter into the safek.  However, even an issur
derabbanan is assur to do during bein hashemashos? What
about davening mincha during bein hashemashos?

-Chaim B.

RR Wolpoe wrote:

>>Also milk/meat is one of the very few places wehre Onkleos spells out 
>>literally do not eat meat in milk (ayein sham).
     
>>The point is that the Torah Shbichsav is operation on a different level - a 
>>machshovo level which can be pyscholigical or literay etc. - while the TSBP, 
>>and expecialy medsrahs halachah- is about implement the concept into practice.
     
Perhaps the fact that the Pri Toar (AKA the Or HaChaim) in his intro to basar 
bechalav struggles to understand this Onkelos based on the Torah She'be'al Peh 
and not within your framework implies that he disagrees with you.  See also R. 
Menachem Genack in Mesorah vol. 3 who tries to learn halachah from this 
Onkoelos.

Gil Student
gil.student@citicorp.com

The Gemara links the three takanos Usha by the one who said them.  I
noticed a progression in the three: first that a person should support
his children.   Then,  that he shouldn't overdo it wrt to his children
i.e. hakosev kol nechosov etc.  Finally,  that he shouldn't overdo it in
general either,  hamevazbez al yevazbez.

Comments?

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

On Thu, May 18, 2000 at 04:06:58PM -0400, TROMBAEDU@aol.com wrote:

<< Would that this was so, would it not make sense to apply this concept
only to 
: those direct descendants of Eisav, as opposed to Goyim in general?>>

	Goyim include,  in addition to descendants of Esav,  descendants of
Yishmael and of Chom.  I don't think that their love for us,  practically
as opposed to halachically (halacha beyadua) is that much greater than
bnei Esav.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

In a message dated 5/19/00 9:45:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
gershon.dubin@juno.com writes:

<< Goyim include,  in addition to descendants of Esav,  descendants of
 Yishmael and of Chom.  I don't think that their love for us,  practically
 as opposed to halachically (halacha beyadua) is that much greater than
 bnei Esav.
  >>

That may be so, but that doesn't mean that the Midrash is talking about them. 
This has been my objection all along. For what ever reasons, good or bad, the 
general hostility and suspicion that many Jews have to Non-Jews should not be 
allowed to color Pshat in the Midrash, in order to fit in to our preconceived 
notion of Jew -as- victims.

Jordan Hirsch 

 Please note comments from congregant who is a composer and married to a 
composer. Often one finds examples and comparisons made in articles  that 
elude the reader. It is helpful to have the resources that clarify and 
validate.
B'chavod, J. Rubenstein <kavyashar@aol.com>
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
BS"D

Dear Rabbi- what a great thing to wake up to in the morning and read on half 
a cup of coffee!
  Is Rabbi Cardozo a musician? I am sure that Gary will answer separately.
I do not think he truly understands either Bach or Beethoven.  Each, in their 
own way, in their own time, was truly innovative. Bach championed the 
recently invented equal tempered tuning system (the one we use today, to tune 
instruments- in his day, it was the newest thing). His music went places no 
one had gone before (to paraphrase Star Trek?) With Beethoven, we will never 
know how his advancing and eventually total deafness influenced him by 
causing him to turn inwards and resulted in the late pieces of his life being 
very introspective, and 'personal'.
 To compare the 2 composers and speculate that one is 'greater' than the 
other for "breaking rules" is also  to ignore the circumstances of the 
musical times in which they lived. It would be like comparing Rav 
Soloveitchik to Maimonides.  People who operate in different time periods - 
it's like comparing apples to oranges.
  Even though we can and do compare a Soloveitchik to a Maimonides, we are 
also aware that one came after the other and builds upon the work of the 
first.  Both operated within the same general framework. This is just as true 
of Bach and Beethoven.
  Bach is often criticized for being a "rule follower" by people who don't 
truly understand music. In his own time, he was thought to be old-fashioned. 
It wasn't until Mendelsohn dug him up that the world got to see how truly 
innovative he actually was. He was actually so ahead of his time that the 
musicians of his own time couldn't even see it! (Bach is not the only example 
of this).
  It seems to me that Rabbi Cardozo is not a musician (?). Both Bach and 
Beethoven EXTENDED what was thought to be possible and acceptable in terms of 
their interpretation of the musical 'halacha' of each of their  time frames. 
  There are probably musicians who would agree with Rabbi Cardozo... but I 
think he is missing something on the musical end, and that he truly does not 
understand Bach at all.  I bet that Gary will probably, separately, say the 
same thing!
  Have a great Shabbat!- amy........>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I wonder if her husband would agree.

B'chavod,
J. Rubenstein

Here's more analysis on the Cordoza article by a congregant who is a composer.
B'chavod,
J. Rubenstein

------------------------

Dear Rav,
Thanks for sending me the stuff below.  Here are a few
thoughts on the Bach-Beethoven comparison, as well as
the author's thesis of using these composers to
illustrate the immutability of Halacha.

The author (I am assuming he is not a musician) is
quite correct in noting that both Bach and Beethoven
knew the "rules" of composition, each in their own
time.  But he doesn't know that Bach was as much an
innovator in his time as Beethoven was in his.  For
example, Bach is responsible, along with a guy named
Andreas Werckmeister,(who actually came up with the
tuning system; Bach then used it) for the kind of
tuning system we have in place today, which is called
equal temperament.    All notes are equal - each half
step on the piano is equal to every other half step. 
Before equal temperament, there were a number of
different tuning systems, called mean tone temperament
or just intonation, where this was not the case, and
which limited the amount of keys one could modulate to
 without getting into some pretty good dissonant
areas. (I rather like the old tuning systems- you
should hear some Bach played on harpsichords tuned in
the "old" system - fantastic!).  Bach wrote the
Well-Tempered Klavier to demonstrate the new Equal
Temperament tuning, which was a revolutionary thing to
do at the time.  Although Bach knew the "rules" he
used them as guidelines to create his music - breaking
any number of them when he needed to in order to
fullfill his artistic impulses. It is also incorrect
to say that " Bach's works were entirely free of any
innovation"; what he did with tuning is only one
example of his innovative thinking.  

I agree with the author's idea that through
restriction comes real freedom (Halacha = spiritual
freedom), but I think he is incorrect in assuming that
Beethoven somehow was less a composer because he
supposedly didn't work within that sort of idea. 
Quite the opposite is true!  It is also incorrect to
say that Beethoven "broke with all the accepted rules
of composition."  What Beethoven did was extend and
evolve the harmonic boundaries of his time, as Bach
did in his time.  I think Spinoza would have enjoyed
Beethoven as much as Bach, maybe more so, for they
both were thinking of extending intellectual/spiritual
boundaries .  Beethoven was one of the great composers
of any time.

Halacha is immutable to us today, but is always
undergoing scrutiny.  Aren't Rabbis always examining
and questioning the Halacha, not just blindly
following?  Bach and Beethoven and every other good
composer does the same thing.  The fact is, musical
"halacha", while changing over centuries, still uses
the same set of pitches since Bach's time - what may
seem radically different to perhaps uneducated ears is
really not that far away from what those same ears
might call "regular" or acceptable. 

I could go on for a while with this - let's talk about
it!  Have a great Shabbat, and G-d willing, I will see
you in shul.  Love to you and the family - 
Gary

 

In a message dated 5/19/00 9:42:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
C1A1Brown@aol.com writes:

> >>>Sounds like Tos.  assumes one is permitted 
>  l'chatchila to be machnis  oneself into a situation of
>  safek?...Yes! see S"A Horav (ibid) 12.<<<
>  
>  This is less of a chiddush than I originally thought -
>  by 2 days Y"T we say noldah bazeh mutteres bazeh even
>  though you can avoid eating the egg entirely and not
>  enter into the safek.

Over there it is a Vaday Mutter MImonoh N'fshach. (the Kler would be if it 
was hatched Bein Hashmoshos of the 2nd day, but in that case it would be a 
Sfek Sfeika, which day it was hatched, and which day is Yom Tov).

>  However, even an issur
>  derabbanan is assur to do during bein hashemashos? 

In general yes but because of the Sofeik there is exceptions see S"A Horav 
261.

>What
>  about davening mincha during bein hashemashos?

As that is the "end" of the Zman (and Lchatchila Al Yesheiv Lifnei Hasapor 
etc.), there is no Rayo of Bdieved.
 
Gut Shabbos V'Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

The sugia about budgeting is in Chulin 84a (not 91a), however IMHO the idea 
of Yaakov and the Pachim Ktanim, shows on general prudence on money matters, 
and see the MaHARShA there.

As to the need to tell friend about giving of gift see Rashi Shabbos 10b.

Gut Shabbos V'Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

<< Over there it is a Vaday Mutter MImonoh N'fshach. >>

Absolutely.  I logged on immediatly after Shabbos to correct my error, but 
you beat me to it.  

-Chaim

********************


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