Avodah Mailing List

Volume 05 : Number 108

Thursday, August 24 2000

• Re: Boneh/Boney Yerushalaim
• Re: Avodah V5 #107-weddings in shul
• Re: weddings in shul
• Re: Tefillos for non Cholim, (was Areivim: surgery update)
• Re: Pesik Raisha
• Re: Vayanchoh Vyaruvechoh...
• Alarm Sensors
• Tefillos for non Cholim
• electric light sensors
• Re: electric light sensors
• Efes Ki Lo Yihye Becho Evyon
• Pesik Raisha
• Re: Feelings...nothing more than feelings...

On Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 10:04:39PM -0400, Kenneth G Miller wrote:
: However, see also the Aruch Hashulchan, O"C 167:8, who says that "Hamotzi" is
: unquestionably a present tense verb, and the gemara is merely asking whether
: it *also* has past or future tense overtones.

I didn't understand the AhSh this way at all. The question is whether the
berachah is shevach/hoda'ah for that which was already brought from the ground,
or hoda'ah/bakashah for that which will be brought from the ground.

IOW, the word is certainly lashon hoveh (*), however, are we talking
misha'avar ad achshav or are we asking mikan ul-haba?

*) whether directly or because the currentness of the verb is implied by the
adjective form is irrelevent for the moment.

:                                               Alternatively, Steinzaltz (in
: the Iyunim) says the machlokes is whether "Hamotzi" is a verb or an adjective.

According to linguists, when did Hebrew speakers start thinking of the word
as a verb in lashon hoveh and not only as an adjective? Was this innovation
a feature of modern Hebrew or of mishnaic Hebrew.

If the latter, than this ties into an Ash / Seph machlokes. Seph tends
to use mishnaic Hebrew for tephillah, whereas we Ash'im tend to use more
biblical forms. For example: Ash- licha, torasecha; Seph- lach, torasach. If
this machlokes is as old as our gemara, the Bavli would treat "hamotzi" as
mishnaic Hebrew, and Steinzaltz's p'shat in the machlokes is a viable concept.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org            you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org       You light a candle.
(973) 916-0287                  - R' Yekusiel Halbserstam of Klausenberg zt"l

I think that R.Dovid Lifshitz zt'l would not perform a wedding in a shul.There
is a teshuvah about it in Heichal Yitzchak, chelek Even Ho Ezer,by Rav Herzog
in which he opposes the practice very strongly because of tznius issues,
e.g. mingling that goes on in the shul leading to kalus rosh and pritzus,
etc.,and says it should not be introduced into Eretz Yiroel.Rav Zalman Druk,
in his Mikdash Meat on Hilchos Beis Haknesses, has a chapter on the subject,
citing many teshovos.

In Avodah V5 #107, ETurkel responded:
> Of course the easy was out is to hold the chuppa outdoors.

Without [right now (*)] getting into the differing minhogim (e.g. for those who
are unaware, minhog Frankfurt [still emulated at "Breuer's" and, presumably,
elsewhere] holds, AFAIK, not just that a chuppa of community members can but
that it should be held in the shul), a long-time member of the Elizabeth,
NJ community mentioned to me last night that shuls, in general, did [and
that some, such as Elizabeth's "Bais Yitzchok Chevra T'hilim" shul, still do]
have a skylight in the roof such that a chuppa could be held "under the sky"
and in shul at the same time.

All the best from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ
-----
(*) Friends are helping me with a bit of research on the matter, so that I
can b'ezras HaShaim write y'all in a semi-intelligent vein on the ancient
(as in pre-Chasam Sofer) roots of this minhog.

On Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 03:46:03AM +1000, SBA wrote:
: Whilst on the subject of Tefilos. In Shemono Esrei - we seem to be mispallel
: for everything a person needs. However, although there is a Tefilla for
: Refuos for the unwell - why isn't there one for those who are BH feeling
: well and wish to continue being so?

Doesn't "refa'einu" mean "all of us", both healthy and sick? I know that I
say the "-nu" suffix, meaning anachnu, even when I myself am healthy.

: V'efsher (?) Lomer: that the first Chaim Sheyesh BOHEM YS is indeed a Tefilla
: for our children - and that is why we say "BOHEM" - referring "them" - our
: children.

I'm not so sure, as there is nothing to indicate that this is the noun. OTOH,
there already is a noun bilashon rabbim in the phrase "chayim".

LAD, the question is whether the chayim provides the yir'as Shamayim (YS),
or the individual does. IOW, what are we asking for, that Hashem give us YS,
or that He give us lives that aim us toward YS?

In the first bakashah, where we are asking for YS directly, we can only ask
for the latter. There is no direct hishtadlus for YS -- hakol biydei Shamayim
chutz miYS.

In the second, we are asking for a love of Torah and of YS; not YS itself,
but a love of it. Therefore we can ask for more direct hishtadlus.

: V'al pi zeh - all the above 3 questions are resolved...

Why? How does inclusion in birchas hachodesh explain ommission from Shemoneh
Esrei?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org            you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org       You light a candle.
(973) 916-0287                  - R' Yekusiel Halbserstam of Klausenberg zt"l

On Fri, Aug 18, 2000 at 12:06:27PM -0400, Feldman, Mark wrote:
: As to the issue of toch kedei dibbur: If you were brushing fast and furious,
: I might agree that your brush strokes should be amalgamated. But if you
: brush slowly, pausing a bit between brush strokes, I would think that each
: stroke would be considered a separate *decision* (meleches machsheves).

If we were to assume that machshavah switches within toch kidei dibbur (TkDD)
intervals, than hasra'ah would be impossible. Don't we require that hasra'ah 
be within TkDD so that we know that the ma'aseh was bimeizid? IOW, aren't
we assuming that he can't lose his meizid-ness within TkDD, and therefore
the act couldn't be beshogeig?

-mi

On Fri, Aug 18, 2000 at 02:47:56AM +1000, SBA wrote:
: 'Vayaruvecho' - and he made you hungry - he gave you an appetite - and then
: 'Vayachilcho es Hamon...'

This reminds me of an ambiguity I noticed in Ashrei.

Had the pasuk said "umasbi'ah ratzon kol chai" the meaning would be clear.
However, David haMelech wrote "umasbi'ah lichol chai ratzon" which could also
be taken to mean "and he gives satisfaction to every living thing by giving
it desires".

In one of his tapes in the series "48 Ways", R' Noach Weinberg says that man
is a pleasure seeker. Bimchilas kivodo, I am more comfortable with the shitah
of the L Rebbe Rashab, which makes his statement a tautology. Lishitaso,
we pursue ratzon in order to be masbi'ah it, and thereby acheive ta'anug.
IOW, it's not that we pursue happiness, but that ta'anug -- one of the many
emotions english lumps together under the word "happiness" -- is defined as the
emotion caused by successful pursuit.

This gives p'shat in the pasuk, that the two ways of understanding it overlap.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org            you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org       You light a candle.
(973) 916-0287                  - R' Yekusiel Halbserstam of Klausenberg zt"l

From: Gil.Student@citicorp.com
> The situation I had in mind was a sensor for an alarm system. On Shabbos,
> the alarm system is turned off but the sensor is not. Movement in the house
> causes the sensor to change status and sometimes causes an LED light to go
> on or off. This is "lo nicha leih" because the alarm system is off so the
> sensor is useless. The LED light is at worst derabbanan.

This is less of a problem than the sensors of neighbors which turn on lights.
This can easily be disabled by putting tape on the sensors.

[Moderator's note: If it's an IR sensor, as opposed to a light sensor, not
all tapes would work. Black electrical tape is opaque to IR as is black
construction paper. At this point, though, we've moved from Avodah to
Areivim. -mi]

From: SBA <sba@blaze.net.au>
> Whilst on the subject of Tefilos. In Shemono Esrei - we seem to be mispallel
> for everything a person needs. However, although there is a Tefilla for
> Refuos for the unwell - why isn't there one for those who are BH feeling
> well and wish to continue being so?

	Tefilos in the form of bakashos are for needs.  Birchas hahoda'ah
covers thanks for "chayenu hamesurim beyadecha".  Asher yotzar covers this
more specifically,  but not as part of S"E.

> And I have also heard asked: Why is there no Tefilla in the SE for our
> children to be Yerei Shomayim?

	Again, not in S"E,  but in birchos haTorah: "venih'ye anachnu...
yod'ei Shemecha..."

	Subquestion:  why is this not included in "hakol bidei Shamaim chutz
miyiras Shamaim?

Gershon
gdubin@loebandtroper.com
gershon.dubin@juno.com

Almost every Ruv I know will argue that if you know that house A. or room
B. has a light sensor it is assur to walk on the sidewalk if you know you
will be tripping it up. If you don't know and it incidentally happens it is
a different issue (which is why many folks are careful to minimize walking
on sidestreets on shabbos and yomtov).

On Wed, 23 Aug 2000, Alan Davidson wrote:
> Almost every Ruv I know will argue that if you know that house A. or room
> B. has a light sensor it is assur to walk on the sidewalk if you know you
> will be tripping it up....

But why?

KT,
YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

An interesting Chasam Sofer on this weeks Parsha, which, lechoreh, shows
that one should go out and make a Parnosso - rather than stay learning in
Kollel under conditions of poverty.

It is based on the Gemoro in Taanis (21.) which tells the story of Ilfa
and Reb Yochonon who, due to need - left the Yeshiva, to seek a Parnoso -
and be mekayem "Efes Ki Lo Yihyeh Becho Evyon".

During their journey, they rested for a meal under an unsafe wall. 2 Malachei
Hashores arrived upon the scene and RY heard one say to the other: "Let's
kill them by throwing down this wall - as they have forsaken Chayei Olom
Hab'oh (Torah study) for Cheyei Sh'oh (Olam Hazeh/trade)".

The second Maloch replied: "Let them be, as one of them is destined to
become great".

RY asked Ilfa: "Did you hear anything?" Ilfa replied: "No".

RY said: "Seeing that I heard (the Malochim) and Ilfa didn't - Shmah Minoh -
that I am intended for greatness...", and he returned to his studies. Meanwhile
Ilfa continued on his way into the world of Mis'char... Ayin Shom.

The Chasam Sofer uses this Gemoro to explain the Psukim.

"Efess Ki Lo Yihyeh Becho Evyon" - You should ensure that you are not poor - by
- "Ki Vorech Yevorechecho Hashem Bo'oretz", by trading the land (as did Ilfa).

"Rak" - however - "Im Shomo'ah Tishma B'kol Hashem Elokecho..." - if you
hear (to the contrary) the voice of Hashem - by a Bas Kol or via Malochim -
"Lishmor V'laasos Es Kol Hamitzvoh..." that you are to be a guardian of the
Torah and Mitzvos (eg a Rosh Yeshiva like Reb Yochonon) - *then* - you stay
in Yeshiva and learn...

SHLOMO B ABELES
mailto:sba@blaze.net

From: "Markowitz, Chaim  Subject: Pesik Raisha
>         ..According to Rav Dovid Feinstein, it is muttar to walk in front of
> a security camera. I don't know what he would say about causing an electric
> light to go on...

IIRC I saw a Tshuva by Rav Wosner shlit'a (published in a Torah journal)
saying that it is not Ossur. 
(I think he claims it is not maleches machsheves.)

SBA
mailto:sba@blaze.net.au

On Thu, Aug 24, 2000 at 02:06:05PM -0700, Harry Maryles wrote to Areivim:
:                      I didn't mean to imply that
: feelings weren't important. They are very important as
: motivational tools in service to G-d.

I think they are even more central in that feelings are among the things
doing the service is supposed to accomplish in you. According to those of us
who follow the "temimus" fork in the hashkafic road, the goal of observance
is self-perfection. How could having a certain set of emotional reactions
NOT be pretty central to that goal? And on the "deveikus" fork -- isn't
feeling a particular way about HKBH a key, if not THE key, element of
deveikus?

According to the Rambam, the key is deveikus through yedi'ah. And "ratzah
HKBH lizakos es Yisrael, lifichach hirbah lahem Torah umitzvos" to give
plenty of opportunities to have an epiphany and gain that yedi'ah.

: So, If one has a strong feeling when doing a Mitzvah,
: all the better. If one can summon up true joy and
: feelings of love when reciting the Shema, then he/she
: is perhaps fulfilling the mitzvah to the highest
: degree. But saying that one loves G-d, without saying
: the Shema, no matter how intense the feeling, does not
: absolve, and most certainly does not surpass, the
: obligation to say it.

Mental state and deeds are cyclic. As in the famous story about R' Yisrael
Salanter (or was it the C"C?) and the insulting and incompetent shocheit,
you can develop an attachment to someone by first acting as though the
attachment exists. Deed causes mental state.

OTOH, as Harry notes, mental state motivates deed.

However, as we have more control over actions than state of mind, Hashem
commands us about actions, letting the emotions follow as the cycle
accelerates.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org            you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org       You light a candle.
(973) 916-0287                  - R' Yekusiel Halbserstam of Klausenberg zt"l

*********************


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