Avodah Mailing List

Volume 05 : Number 133

Friday, September 29 2000

• Hagbah MM's - Shegiyos mi yovin?
• Re: Besuros Tovos
• Re: correction of the baal kriah
• Re: Birchos HaTorah (was Re: Besuros Tovos)
• Re: correction of the baal kriah

>> I have looked up the Mishnah Berurah and it is
>> without any sofek that according to him Hagbeh should be done going all
>> the way round - by turning to your right and continuing to do so until
>> you have made the complete circle.

> The Mareh Mekomos are SA (137:2) and MB sk 9
> and Hilchos Nesias Kapayim 128:17 and the MB sk9."

Several Chaverim have privately pointed out that I have given the wrong MM's.

> Unfortunately, there were typos in both marei m'komos:
> it is 134;2, S.K. 9, and 128;17 s.k. 61.

I have no idea how I did that - I had the MB in front of me as I was
typing!

SBA

Carl M. Sherer <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il> writes
:> Women are obligated to learn those halachos which they use in 
:> their every day lives. That is still learning Torah (which ought to 
:> require a bracha) even if it is not learning Torah solely for Torah's 
:> sake. 

On Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 08:34:08PM +0100, Chana/Heather Luntz wrote:
: I think the distinction you are making is between learning the things
: required in daily life as a mitzvah in and of itself and Torah as a
: hemshech mitzvah. I must say I am struggling to think of an example
: where the latter has a brocha.

As I see it, we all agree that women are mechuyavos to learn practical
material. I would think Torah shebichsav is a likely candidate as well, as
"kol halomeid bito Torah..." is often taken to mean only Torah shebe'al
peh. Or is it merely excluded from "ke'ilu ... tiflus" and also from
chiyuv?

As I see it, the two of you are debating whether this chiyuv is a chiyuv
bifnei atzmah, or whether it's a hachanah or hechsher for a mitzvah,
which in general does not. A similar question to that about the nature of
the berachah on or at nissuin ("asher kidishanu bimitzvosav *vitzivanu*
AL ha'arayos...).

I would say (given my profound ignorance of the subject) that the presence
of the berachah indicates the former. That women are actually mechuyavos
to learn the pragmatic stuff as an end in itself.

If the resolution to my easier uncertainty is that anything that isn't
"tiflus" falls under the chiyuv, then there is a second indication that
this is true. After all, learning enough Tanach or hashkafah to stay
more attracted to Torah than to the surrounding culture isn't preparation
for any given mitzvah in the sense that learning practical halachah is.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org            you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org       You light a candle.
(973) 916-0287                  - R' Yekusiel Halbserstam of Klausenberg zt"l

On Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 09:20:04AM -0500, Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer wrote:
: As to what the boundaries are in a change of meaning, that is a good 
: question, but not relevant to mistakes in trop, nor even me'le'il vs. 
: me'l'ira and most vowel errors.

There are changes in meaning, as others pointed out in pretty much any
change of mil'eil vs mil'ira of a verb. We discussed the case in Rashi
if ba'AH vs BA'ah, or in Sephardi and Israeli havaros, with tzeirei = segol,
ochEL (tzeirei b4 lamed) and Ochel (segol b4 lamed). Add to that Tanach's
propensity for leading vuv's and you can easily change a vuv hachibbur
into a vav hahipuch.

For that matter, trop as well changes meaning. Obviously where you comma
a sentence can change its meaning, and lashon haKodesh (via trop) has
three distinct levels of pauses.

As does stress change meaning. I can't readily think of an example from
Tanach, so kindly settle for trying "Are you going to the store?" with
a stress on each of the words in turn. The question becomes:
    - Are you or are you not going?
    - Are you the one who is going, or is someone else?
    - Is the store that you are on your way to your point of origin (in
      which case you would be coming to the store) or are you going to it?
    - Are you going or coming back from the store?
    - Are you going to THE store or just any store?
    - Are you going to the store or to someplace else?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org            you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org       You light a candle.
(973) 916-0287                  - R' Yekusiel Halbserstam of Klausenberg zt"l

On 26 Sep 2000, at 20:09, Chana/Heather Luntz wrote:
>> That would be so except that we don't only say korbanos because 
>> of learning, but also because of "neshalma parim sfaseinu,"

> Yes.  But for that you do not need birchas hatorah! (ie if it was only
> for that reason, I do not see how you can justify saying birchas hatorah
> over them). 

Note the Biur Halacha in 47 s"v Nashim, where he says, "d'ho chayavos
LILMOD ha'dinim she'lahem v'od d'chayeves LOMAR parshas ha'korbanos k'mo
she'chayeves b'tfilla." [Emphasis mine].

It seems that the Biur Halacha is holding that whatever it is that women
are doing with parshas ha'korbanos, it isn't learning.

-- Carl

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

At 07:47 AM 9/28/00 -0400, Micha Berger wrote:
>There are changes in meaning, as others pointed out in pretty much any
>change of mil'eil vs mil'ira of a verb...
>For that matter, trop as well changes meaning....
>As does stress change meaning...

Indeed. Who is to say that changes, based on subtle nuance, like this, 
necessarily warrant, according to the Yerushalmi, correction?

KVCT
YGB

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