Avodah Mailing List

Volume 06 : Number 034

Wednesday, November 8 2000

• Re: beriah and dinosaur bones
• Administivia for Chaburah in T'rei Asar
• parshas Noach
• Kiddush intro
• Re: Women and tefila
• Re: parshas Noach
• Re: Avodah V6 #32
• RE: beriah and dinosaur bones
• RE: beriah and dinosaur bones
• RE: Kiddush intro
• women's tfila
• woman's tfila
• Re: Kiddush intro
• Re:Birthdays
• noach and continents
• Re: noach and continents
• Re: Women and tefila
• Re: Kiddush intro
• RE: Kiddush intro
• Re: Free will
• karbanot
• RE: Women and tefila
• Re: Women and tefila
• Re: Women and tefila
• Re: Bruriah
• Re: Kiddush intro
• Re: Birthdays
• RE: Kiddush intro
• Re: Questions about p. Noach
• Re: parshas Noach
• Re: beriah and dinosaur bones

In a message dated 11/7/00 12:51:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:
> Illustration:  A Chassan must separate from his kallah for 11 days after
> relations with his kallah.  The stated reason is that dam bsulim might
> camouflage dam niddah.

>  This halachah holds even in the absence of any dam? ...

Shema Chipohu S"Z.

Kol Tuv, 
Yitzchok Zirkind

The chaburah will be meeting this week at 8pm Fri night, at R' Chaim
Markowitz's <CMarkowitz@scor.com> house: 285 Pennington, right off of
Van Houten - 2nd house on the right. It is a brown house.

-mi

R Eli Linas wrote:
> I heard this p'shat years ago in yeshivah, can't remember who said it. A
> sefer that I believe you typeset - The Mysteries of Creation, by Rabbi
> Dovid Brown - also has a discussion on the idea, although he says that the
> intial split was in the time of Enosh, and that a second great split took
> place in Peleg's time. 

	I believe the Malbim attributes the earth splitting to the Mabul
itself.

RYGB wrote:
> Less than three words is nisht ken posuk, nor a pasuk fragment. Nafka mina 
> for sheimos as well - I believe the source is the Gemara in Gittin about 
> sirtut. Check the TE on the topic of Kol pasuk d'lo paskei Moshe as well.

	But doesn't the Mishna Brerura (or Aruch Hashulchan) explicitly say
that there is no point in just saying the words "yom hashishi". Those 2
words by themselves are meaningless.

> His point was that although the students do in fact have more time,
> it is necessary to educate them as to what is critical to davening and

What is critical to davening. I recall R Herscel Schachter quoting RYBS bshem 
RChaim that the Magen Avraham that a woman was yotzei mitvas tefila with 
modeh ani and brachos was wrong and that women were mchuyevet in Smoneh esreh 
for shacharis and mincha.
                                         Steven brizel
                                           zeliglaw@aol.com

On Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 11:43:20PM +0200, Eli Linas wrote:
: there weren't different continents until Peleg's time. 

This may be a makor for RSRH's shitah. Peleg got his name because he was
the generation of dor hahaflagah (Rashi). Which means that this statement
is consistant with identifying the haflagah with the scattering of the world.

-mi

> A friend of mine recently told me that a person's birthday is a
> special day of Kirva to HKB"H and an especially good day for prayer
> and asking things.
 
Look at the mefarshim on the mishna in Avos which ascribes diffferent levels 
of wisdom as one grows older .
                                            Steven Brizel
                                              zeliglaw@aol.com

-----Original Message-----
Yitzchok Zirkind
>> Illustration:  A Chassan must separate from his kallah for 11 days after
>> relations with his kallah.  The stated reason is that dam bsulim might
>> camouflage dam niddah.

> Shema Chipohu S"Z.

True but think about it.  The Dam bsulim are a gzeira to begin with.  Now
you have a chsash for unseem dam bsulim as being dam niddah.  You don't find
that a stretch? I do.  So did several of my chavrusos. 

Rich Wolpoe

Daniel Eidensohn
> While I personally find the issue of science and halacha to be very
> interesting - gedolim seem to disagree. Rabbi Shurkin told me that Rav
> Soleveitchik felt it was a waste of time to "reconcile" science and Torah
> and ridiculed the whole enterprise. Rav Moshe Feinstein also seemed to
> have a similar attitude. Why this is true is an interesting question
> but it doesn't change the reality.

Funny.  My impression of Torah Umada was davka to reconcile the two
disciplines as best as one can.

I would be interested in know the context of RYBS remarks. If if is
halachic, as in overthworing tarfus, then I would see his point.  We cannot
compare Halachic criteria with the ever-evolving scientific paradigms. It
would de-stablize the halachic universe

OTOH, if RYBS was speaking about haskafa about the pursuit of seeing Torah
and Science in harmony - say with regards to the origins of our universe, I
would be rather surpised to see the Rav opose these attempts.  Nearly every
Modern Orthodox shul when I grew up used a Hertz Chumash.  The ideal of
reconciling science and Torah had a very strong impact in the era of 1930's
- 1960's.  NCSY had pamphelts on the topic,  iirc R. Aryeh Kaplan was
invovled wiht this, too.

I don't recall R. Aaron Batt's own position, but it is my impression that he
saw the two disciplines as meshing with each other.

Professor Agus - as I have often posted - posited that Kabbalah was all
about "advanced science".

With regard to R. Moshe, I believe that he has a tshuvah saying that the
advent off refrigeration alters out hanghagga wrt to burial on YT.  I did
not se it inside, it was quoted to me.  If this is true, it could be seen as
a major precedent for seeing halachic changes as a reslt of tehcnolgoial
changes.  A form of nishtanu hatvi'im prehaps? 

Shalom and Regards,
Rich Wolpoe
Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com  

 
    

MSB:
>: The esnachto consititues enough of a hefsek to not violate the rule of Kol
>: Passuk.  IOW the rule does apply but it is lav davkathe sof passuk.

> Why then is there a shittah that holds that one must correct a leining
> mistake involving a sof passuk -- even if it's confused with an esnachta?
> One would think that if either closes a passuk, no real harm was done.

Good point.  I've often wondered myself.

However, there may be a different crieria for sof passuk in context of
aliyos and the notion of lo passak.

Illustration: Let's say I read three psukim but eshantoe'd away a sof
passuk, then it would APPEAR as if I had read two and that could imply not
calling another aliya.

OTOH, (IMO) in terms of changing meaning, esnachto is as good a pause at the
end of a phrase as is a sof passuk.  Both change words like PEsach to
PAWsach.  And IMO what counts legabei kri'a is phrasing and how it impacts
meaning, etc.

FWIW a fellow Baal Kri'a - an actuary - was disucssing some of these points
with me.  He had questions about the consistency of neginnos from passuk to
passuk.  He concluded that neginnos are relative not absolute.  of course
that could cut either way as to whether an esnachto is the moral equivalent
of a sof passuk, but to me it IS generally true.

Shalom and Regards,
Rich Wolpoe
Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com  

There seems to be some ambivalence among contemporary rabbanim 
regarding women's presence in shul.  On the one hand, one ground
that R' Herschel Schachter uses to show that women's tefillah
groups are sub-optimal is that women get a reward for being present
in a minyan where they can hear, and be part of, devarim shebikedushah
(kaddish, kedushah, kriat hatorah, barchu).  On the other hand, R'
Frand in a tape about women saying kaddish, concludes that women
can't say kaddish because (based on the Aruch haShulchan) the 
ezrat nashim is a separate reshut from the men's side, so she isn't
part of the tzibur where the minyan is. You can see how these are
mutually exclusive positions: either she is or she is not part of
the tzibur, either she can or cannot benefit from being part of the
tzibur.

       Jonathan Baker     |  Marches-wan, marches-two,
       jjbaker@panix.com  |  March the months all through and through
    Web page update: Vidui, Siyum on Moed. http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker/

From: Gil.Student@citicorp.com
> It is less a matter of communication than one of hergel and emotions

gg.  I think you've "teitched up" what Rav Yaakov meant.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

On 7 Nov 00, at 16:57, Markowitz, Chaim wrote:
> 	But doesn't the Mishna Brerura (or Aruch Hashulchan) explicitly say
> that there is no point in just saying the words "yom hashishi". Those 2
> words by themselves are meaningless.

I thought that the point of starting Yom HaShishi (or for those of us 
who say the beginning of the pasuk in an undertone, for starting to 
say out loud from Yom HaShishi) was that way the roshei teivos of 
the first four words make the Shem Havaya.

[RYGB said the same, but more succintly. His entire post read "Y-H-V-H?" -mi]

-- Carl

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

In Chabad, they always quoted from the Ben Ish Chai to explain why they
emphasized the Rebbe's birthday.  I can't remember th eexact reference.

Daniel

>> How did the animals get from the mideast to other continents eg America,
>> Australia after the flood?

> Through Hashgochas Hashem yisborach.

Hasgacha doesn't get an animal across several thousand miles of ocean
unless a miracle is involved as Micha suggested. One then has to assume
that the punishment for migdal bavel involved a lot more than the Torah
indicates as it involves moving thousands of animals over thousands of
miles across oceans (flying?).

I assume that the same is true for the plants as there was no one to plant
them. I assume according to this theory that the American Indians arrived
in the US after dor haflaga and the same for eskimos, aborigines etc.


[In a second post:]

> Really two questions, the second of which has several speculative
> possiblities. Actually, the first one does as well. I just want to point
> out that on the most obvious level, this doesn't present a problem, because
> there weren't different continents until Peleg's time.

Any source for the statement of the continents?
It would be interesting if Chazal stated that all continents were
connected originally, especially since it is not clear that knew
about the Americas and Australia. How about islands?

Eli Turkel

On Wed, 8 Nov 2000, Eli Turkel wrote:
> Hasgacha doesn't get an animal across several thousand miles of ocean
> unless a miracle is involved...

What was the fellow's name again - Thor Heyerdahl? Same theory.

KT,
YGB
Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/rygb

Steven Brizel wrote:

> What is critical to davening. I recall R Herscel Schachter quoting RYBS bshem 
> RChaim that the Magen Avraham that a woman was yotzei mitvas tefila with modeh
> ani and brachos was wrong and that women were mchuyevet in Smoneh esreh for 
> shacharis and mincha.
                                         
But even for a man, most of Pesukei Dezimra is just a minhag.  I still can't 
figure out why Korbanos is so long.  No one today has to learn the halachos of 
an asham shifchah charufah.  A woman doesn't need to say tachanun, shir shel 
yom, I think you're getting the picture.  Bare bones.

Gil Student
                                           

On Mon, 6 Nov 2000 Yzkd@aol.com wrote:
> Much of what was discussed here can be found in Mogein Avrohom O"C 51:9,
> 282:1, 422:8, note also the Chochmas Shlomo on 51.  ...

> WRT the Chasam Sofer and Esnachta, as to me this was Shver from the
> Gemara in Megila I looked it up in O"C # 10, and IIUC he also rejects
> this, and his reason is as quoted in the C"S on the S"A that there is no
> other choice, while he holds that starting from Yom Hashishi makes no
> sense, see Lkutei Mariach. 

The TE is in 15:16, saw in Shul this morning, but he does not cite the
three word sevoro. Maybe it is my chiddush based on sirtut... Probably,
however did see it somewhere (or, was inspired by the Tehillas Hashem
siddur).

KT,
YGB
Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/rygb

-- Carl
> I thought that the point of starting Yom HaShishi ...
>                                 was that way the roshei teivos of 
> the first four words make the Shem Havaya.

Indeed.  This is how it developed. Summary:

1) First came saying Yom Hashsishi to invokve "Y-H-V-H"
Problem Yom Hasshi is meaningless by itself
2) Then came saying vayehi Erev silently first because Yom Hashishi.
Problem: Wwhy not start at the beginning of the passuk i.e. Vayar Elokim es
kol...  After all kol Passuk dlo passak Moshe...
3) Then came the array of answers.

Shalom and Regards,
Rich Wolpoe
Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com  

RMB:
>First, frai vs frum isn't an all-or-nothing. So I'm not sure why his being
>a BT or another being an FFB is an issue. It's all about moving the nekudah
>upward.

I never said it was. Rather, I was just giving one example. Playing ball is
not generally a problem to a FFB, whose used to Shabbos his entire life,
and for whom playing ball on Shabbos never entered the geder of being a
question for him - but to the BT guy in my example, it is. However, I do
want to point out that it so happens that this is true of many points -
when a person becomes a B.T., there's a lot of things he has to get used
to, and a lot of them are bchira points that won't be a question for him
down the road a bit. So the B.T. is a good example about moving the point
upward.  

>: few years down the road,
>: when he's made peace with his decision not to play, this is no longer a
>: free will choice, just like it's not for an FFB. 

>And don't the same things happen outside the observant community? People
>do teshuvah from cheating on taxes or eating on Yom Kippur successfully
>enough that as time progresses it wouldn't even cross their minds
>again.

Frankly, I don't think so. But to the extent they do, and it's a result of
their relationship w/the Almighty and not because of other extenuating
circumstances, such as fear of getting caught cheating, or sociatal
pressure to fast, then of course, I agree, and never said otherwise.
 
>This goes back to removing this all-or-nothing barrier. Every person
>faces progress and r"l regress no matter where they are currently. What
>differs is which battles are fought, not the process of battle.

>Which is why I disagree with your statement about who excercises bechirah
>most often. It's whoever is in the most moral flux, regardless of where
>they are on the frumometer.

I disagree: it's generally the mitzvah observant crowd who sees (or
ideally, should see) almost everything in a moral context. Certainly, this
is true to the extent that their morals are Torah based, and not man based,
which is the case for most friers. And even if it's God based, it's not
Torah based, but based on whatever hazy conception of Divine morality they
have from Hebrew school (real effective, that...) and the surrounding
goyish culture.

>In a later email REL writes:
>: what you say, just because he no longer has the choice doesn't mean
>: he's not rewarded for it - in other words, he is not "punished"
>: by losing out on the schar that he otherwise would have had if he had
>: to continually confront this issue. There are other details to it as well.

>As I mentioned in passing earlier, I disagree. One gets reward for
>being in a place where this isn't a decision, but where there is less
>tza'ara, there will be less agra. This is the whole reason for them
>being judged kichut shel sa'ara -- for them this is the parallel
>battle that the bigger issues are for us.

I was mkabel this from my Rebbe. Don't know where he got it from.

>Second, one should be aware that in every middah people are going to have
>different nekudos, and multiple middos are involved in each decision. So
>the whole picture is far more complicated.

>IOW, I would address distance from various bechirah points, not the
>yes-or-no of being at a single nekudah or beyond it. (A second retreat
>from black-vs-white in one email.)

Agreed

Eli

Gil Student
> I still can't 
> figure out why Korbanos is so long. No one today has to learn the halachos
> of an asham shifchah charufah. A woman doesn't need to say tachanun, shir
> shel yom, I think you're getting the picture. Bare bones. 

I've heard R' Schachter say that karbanot nowadays is "Uneshalma parim
sfateinu"

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

Gil Student
> But even for a man, most of Pesukei Dezimra is just a minhag.  I still can't
> figure out why Korbanos is so long.  No one today has to learn the halachos
> of an asham shifchah charufah. A woman doesn't need to say tachanun, shir
> shel yom, I think you're getting the picture.  Bare bones.

Karbannos are a shiur of Mikra

Perek Ziezehu Mekoman is there to learn a shiur of Mishnayos

Braisso of R. Ysihmael is a shiur Gmoro

They are not really tefillo at all.

This is dramatized in the KAJ/Farnkfurt minhag (I believe the GRA, too) of
saying birchas hatorah right before karbanos

Shalom and Regards,
Rich Wolpoe
Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com  

> But even for a man, most of Pesukei Dezimra is just a minhag.
> I still can't figure out why Korbanos is so long.

So isn't it strange that no one has suggested that a man be taught
in yeshiva to daven an abridged davening, because after all, with the
time pressure some of us face in getting to work, sharing the burden of
packing off the kids to school, etc., there just isn't time?

In a message dated 11/8/00 9:06:37am EST, Gil.Student@citicorp.com writes:
> No one today has to learn the halachos of 
> an asham shifchah charufah. 

See S"A O"C 50.

Kol Tuv, 
Yitzchok Zirkind

Way back in Areivim V5 #257 REM Teitz wrote:

> There is no such g'mara; it is Rashi in Avodah Zarah 18b, where the
> g'mara says that R. Meir ran away because of "the incident with Bruriah."
> On this, Rashi (without mentioning a source) explains it because of his
> shame after her suicide.  [If anyone knows Rashi's source, I would
> appreciate being informed.]

The Maharatz Chayus in his Mevo HaTalmud (ch. 31 p. 342) argues for a late 
chasimas hatalmud.  He brings various gaonic sources such as Bahag and 
She'eiltos (and the Ein Ya'akov, which must have been compile from very early 
sources) that quote gemaras that we don't have.  He suggests that some gemaras 
were edited out because they reflected badly on certain chachamim.  His two 
examples are a story about Avuha DiShmuel quoted in Bahag hilchos kiddushin and 
the story about Beruriah and R. Meir quoted in the above Rashi.  MHRTzCh 
suggests that Rashi had a mesorah from gaonim that this story used to be in the 
shas.

Gil Student

In a message dated 11/8/00 9:06:21am EST, sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu writes:
> The TE is in 15:16, saw in Shul this morning, but he does not cite the
> three word sevoro. Maybe it is my chiddush based on sirtut... Probably,
> however did see it somewhere (or, was inspired by the Tehillas Hashem
> siddur).

Thanks for the exect M"M in the T"E.

For the benefit of the list I am posting some comments I wrote privately to 
RYGB plus some new comments since Ein Beis Medrosh Bli Chidush :-)

The Sevara based on Shirtut is a nice Chap (although from the Loshon Hagemara 
in Gitin 6b one can argue that it is a special Limud that has NO Sevara hence 
could be not applicable to other Halochos) however from the Loshon Hazohar 
(brought in the M"A O"C 282:1) it seems even one word is a problem.  As an 
aside perhaps we could also apply the 3 word Sevara to Dvarim 
Shebiksav...Loimrom Bal Peh, (which BTW Poskim also apply the same chilukim 
Chumash vs. N"C Tfila vs. LImud), Matzasi Ktzas Smuchim *Al Derech Zeh* in 
the Yad Malachi in Kllolei Dinim who brings Knesses Hagdoloh on O"C 49 who is 
Michaleik between one word that has no meaning to 2 words.

Kol Tuv, 
Yitzchok Zirkind

In a message dated 11/8/00 8:06:59am EST, schiffd@mail.biu.ac.il writes:
> In Chabad, they always quoted from the Ben Ish Chai to explain why they
>  emphasized the Rebbe's birthday.  I can't remember th eexact reference.

See Gemara Megila 13b WRT the birthday of Moshe Rabbeinu. 

Kol Tuv, 
Yitzchok Zirkind

R Carl Sherer wrote:
> I thought that the point of starting Yom HaShishi (or for those of us 
> who say the beginning of the pasuk in an undertone, for starting to 
> say out loud from Yom HaShishi) was that way the roshei teivos of 
> the first four words make the Shem Havaya.

	I know, but I thought the point of adding "vayihi erev vayihi boker"
was because the words "yom hashishi" by themselves don't mean anything. In
other words, ain hachi nami by saying "yom hashishi" you get the roshei
teivos of shen havaya but at the same time the words themselves don't mean
anything.

RRW:
>FWIW I don't see Noach's drunkeness as a result of hedonism.  I see it as a
>depressive episode following his "survivor guilt" or his guilt over not
>intervening on behalf of his generation. 

Rav Zeidel Epstein, shlitta, machgiach of Torah Ore, gives a similar tyche.

Eli 

Me:
>> I know some of them personally, and their integrity is beyond a doubt.

RAA:
>So do I -- and I agree with you about their integrity.

>Integrity, however, is no indication of the correctness of the person's
>hypothesis....
>In most areas where the Frum community endorses pseudoscience, the people
>involved *are* sincere in their beliefs....
>This becomes problematic when Gedolim rely on these people about the
>validity of the ideas...

I am not talking about pseudoscientists, but the real mckoy. Some of them
are world class scientists. Obviously, they, like anyone else, can make
a mistake. However, this is true on the other side as well. Your charge
that "they honestly believe that what they believe in is true even when
people more knowledgable and more qualified challange their beliefs"
means in my book that in fact, they aren't honest. Once again, I'm not
talking pseudoscientists, like kiruv workers with a relatively strong
grasp of material and with a scientific bent, but actual scientists. I
know that, at least of one I'm thinking of in particular who is very
accessable and open to what others have to say.

Eli

RDEect: Re: beriah and dinosaur bones

>While I personally find the issue of science and halacha to be very
>interesting - gedolim seem to disagree. Rabbi Shurkin told me that Rav
>Soleveitchik felt it was a waste of time to "reconcile" science and Torah
>and ridiculed the whole enterprise. Rav Moshe Feinstein also seemed to
>have a similar attitude. Why this is true is an interesting question
>but it doesn't change the reality.

Knowing Rav Shurkin, I have a clear picture in my head of him saying this
to you! What I'd like to know is, did you happen to ask him why it's a
waste of time? Especially in light of the fact that at least from what I
know, there are lots of things that can be reconciled.

Eli

********************


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