Avodah Mailing List

Volume 07 : Number 004

Tuesday, March 27 2001

• RE: Areivim on Hol HaMoed
• Re: Nolad
• Erev Pesach she' chal b'Shabbos Eitza for Ashkenazic Gebrokts Eaters
• Early Gebrokts Source
• Re: Nolad
• Re: Mah Nishtana
• Re: water on Pesach
• Re: Erev Pesach she' chal b'Shabbos Eitza for Ashkenazic Gebrokts Eaters
• RE: water on Pesach
• Re: after sof zman tefila
• Re: Mah Nishtana
• RE: Difficulties with Vehigadto Levinchoh..
• Re: Nolad
• Re: Erev Pesach she' chal b'Shabbos Eitza for Ashkenazic Gebrokts Eaters
• Re: Erev Pesach she' chal b'Shabbos Eitza for Ashkenazic Gebrokts Eaters
• Re: Erev Pesach she' chal b'Shabbos Eitza for Ashkenazic
• RE: Erev Pesach she' chal b'Shabbos Eitza for Ashkenazic Gebrokts Eaters
• Is'arusa d'l'Eila; Is'arusa d'l'Tatta
• Re ma-im she lanu
• RE: Erev Pesach she' chal b'Shabbos Eitza for Ashkenazic
• RE: Erev Pesach she' chal b'Shabbos Eitza for Ashkenazic
• Bedikas chameitz
• O.C. 443:1
• Bittul Chometz-TT-Emuna
• Voss Iz Der Chilluk #5: MC vol. 2 p. 65

From: Menachem Burack <Mburack@emiltd.com>
> But I don't think that what RSZA is prohibiting. He says that the diskette
> has no value, but putting a file on it gives it value (before it was a
> useless piece of plastic and now it has a file that can be opened and used
> -- you have been "boneh" a useful object.). 

According to your sevarah RSZA should have limited his psak to a *blank*
diskette.  IIRC he does not.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

On 24 Mar 2001, at 21:37, Steve Katz wrote:
> At a discussion after shul today someone asked why can't one make coffee
> on shabbos in a coffeemaker that has a build in timer or in otherwise
> on a timer. I opined it was like the chicken and the egg, ie nolad. He
> answered that you put up raw chulent just before shabbos and eat it in
> the next day just as long as you don't raid the chulent during the night.

The issue with the cholent isn't nolad - the cholent is there before
Shabbos but it just isn't cooked yet. The issue with the cholent is
bishul. And if you can put up raw cholent just before Shabbos (a heter
known as kidra chaysa) you can only do it with meat (i.e. if there
is no chance that the cholent will be ready to eat during the night)
because of the gzeira of shema yechate ba'gecholim. So if you're putting
up the cholent just before Shabbos, there should be nothing to raid on
Friday night.

> Am I right about nolad or is there another teretz?

It seems to me that it's bishul (unless of course you're using instant or
you make it using a coffee bag like you would a cup of tea). But setting
a percolator on a timer strikes me as no different from putting raw food
in an oven and setting the oven on a timer - which looks (and smells :-)
like bishul.

KNLA"D.

-- Carl

mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

"Challah" Rolls mae from Matzo Meal and water plus some egg flavoring. Can 
be eaten after Chatzos, lichora, as well - good for Se'udah Shelishis (you 
can wash if you are kovei'ah se'udah, like egg chometz challos).

Works?

KT,
YGB
ygb@aishdas.org      http://www.aishdas.org/rygb

I came across a teshuvah that is interesting on many different grounds.  The 
author is the Rashbash - R. Shlomo ben Shimon (ben Tzemach Duran) who lived in 
the mid 1400s, among Spanish refugees in Algiers.

He was asked by forced converts to Christianity how to minimize their violation 
of the issurim of Pesach, keeping in mind that if their neighbors discover that 
they are trying to do this they will be turned in to the Inquisition.

The Rashbash (#90) recommended that they bake bread out of matzah meal, a 
practice that he claims is otherwise rabbinically forbidden as a gezeirah.

There you have it - a rishon forbidding at least some aspects of gebrokts.  

Gil Student

"Carl M. Sherer" wrote:
>It seems to me that it's bishul (unless of course you're using instant or
> you make it using a coffee bag like you would a cup of tea).

But of course we hold yesh bishul achar bishul b'lach, so unless you leave out
the liquid it's still bishul if initiated on Shabbos.  Anyone like hot, dry
coffee?

David Riceman

Micha Berger wrote:
>> Mah nishtanah includes references to things that didn't occur
>> yet (matbilin shetei pe'amim; maror). Obviously, someone was expected
>> to teach the children this stuff in advance.

Daniel A HaLevi Yolkut wrote:
> While the Rambam holds that the order was similar to what we do
> with the addition of Chagiga and Pesach (or Pesach and Chagiga :)), the
> Mordechai held that the eating came before the sipur yetzias mitzrayim.

And the Rambam (in the PhM IIRC) holds that they're not questions asked by the
child, but exclamations made by the adult (who does know what's going to
happen).

David Riceman

On 26 Mar 2001, at 16:17, Eli Turkel wrote:
> The question was that if we are afraid of chametz in our water supply why
> not be afraid of chametz in the air landing on the food or in our mouths
> (on Pesach!).

1. I would propose that a Ma She'hu has to be visible to the naked
eye. With the water supply, if someone is fishing in the Kineret and
they are using bread as bait, that bread is visible to the naked eye (it
may not be by the time it gets to Yerushalayim - which may be why most
people are not choshesh for using the water supply). But for Chametz
that is visible to come flying through the air into your food strikes
me as a milsa d'lo shicha.

2. This may be a stretch, but I would propose that with respect to the
bread in the water supply, it's an inyan of kol ha'kavua k'mechtza al
mechtza damya (the Kinneret being essentially kavua). But with the air
surrounding the food I eat during Pesach, as long as I am eating in my
home, and not in the office with my goyishe co-workers, I would argue
that rov of the food is Pesachdig and therefore kol d'pareesh mei'ruba
pareesh would solve my problem.

-- Carl

On 26 Mar 2001, at 8:53, Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M wrote:
> "Challah" Rolls mae from Matzo Meal and water plus some egg flavoring. Can 
> be eaten after Chatzos, lichora, as well - good for Se'udah Shelishis (you 
> can wash if you are kovei'ah se'udah, like egg chometz challos).

Why wouldn't it be like eating Matzo on Erev Pesach? I was taught not
to eat any Matzo products on Erev Pesach.

For this year it won't help me anyway - my shver and shvigger are coming
for the Seder, which means we have to keep gebrokts for the first day.

-- Carl

> The question was that if we are afraid of chametz in our water supply why
> not be afraid of chametz in the air landing on the food or in our mouths
> (on Pesach!).

Don't I recall this concept being answered in the first section of the mishna
Psachim [perek aleph], the part discussing the mouse and how we can only take
things just so far? How much chametz do you think is measurable in the air,
exactly?

---Rena

Mrs Gila Atwood writes:
>> I learned that after sof zman tefilah *a woman has no heter* to daven
>> any of the brachas before and after Shma- bircos Ohr, Shma or Goel.
>> A man has the heter

And C1A1Brown@aol.com responds:
>If anything, the reverse should be true. A man's chiyuv is constrained
>by the derabbanan's that fix a zman. If you accept the shita of MG"A that
>women are obligated only in the d'oraysa of tefila, then any tefila said
>any time during the day is sufficient. If you pasken against that MG"A
>(which we discussed a few months ago), then a woman's chiyuv should
>equal a man's.

>Why would you say otherwise?

Well, of course ROY in Yabiat Omer Orech Chaim Chelek 2 siman 6 holds
that women should never say the brochas of kirias shema (at least with
shem and malchus) on the grounds that saying such brochas are a positive
mitzva dependent on time and hence brochas sheano tzricha and hence it
is assur to say them (as is the standard Sephardi position on women
saying borchas such as over shofar and lulav).  However he does
acknowledge that those women who justify saying them on the basis that
such brochas are linked to tefila (which women are obligated in) have on
whom to rely.  For somebody who permitted saying of the brochas by women
only on this basis, after sof zman tefila (when he would hold even men
stop saying them) it would be vadai ossur.

Regards
Chana

On Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 12:46:57PM -0500, Daniel A HaLevi Yolkut wrote:
:> Mah nishtanah includes references to things that didn't occur
:> yet (matbilin shetei pe'amim; maror). Obviously, someone was expected
:> to teach the children this stuff in advance.
: 
: IIRC, there is a machlokes Rishonim as to the order of the Seder bi-zman
: haBayis....

In either case, whomever made the current order expected us to educate
our kids in advance.

: with the addition of Chagiga and Pesach (or Pesach and Chagiga :)), the
: Mordechai held that the eating came before the sipur yetzias mitzrayim.

Without having heard of this machlokes before, and without mar'eh mekomos,
I can only comment on the machlokes off the cuff.

How would one be yotzei shitas Rabban Gamliel? Point to the bones that
are left from the qorban? It would seem that he holds that be'etzem (pun
intended) the two are done simultaneously -- the sippur is a din in the
achilah -- explaining what's being eaten and why.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org            you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org       You light a candle.
(973) 916-0287                  - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l

IIRC, I heard from RSYW that you deal with each one at their current
level - tell the 6 yr old via stories and the 16 yr old via divrei torah.
(he said this (Vehigadto Levinchoh as per SBA's question on dealing with
adult children) might explain why "new" haggodahs come out every year...)

kol tuv

On Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:35:14PM -0500, David Riceman wrote:
: But of course we hold yesh bishul achar bishul b'lach, so unless you leave out
: the liquid it's still bishul if initiated on Shabbos.  Anyone like hot, dry
: coffee?

It's more like bishul achar tzeli -- the beans are dry roasted -- bidavar
lach.

On similar grounds I question the use of room temperature tea sense.
Whatever is done, e.g. keli shelishi with the sense can be done with the
original teabag. And the teabag is at least dry roasted leaves. Using 
the sense is just investing effort to avoid another senif lihatir.

Unless you are trying to avoid birur, in which case, take the bag out of
the tea with a spoon.

But back to the original question: why is making coffee by a timer
bishul? We don't worry about shevisas keilim. It should no more be a
problem of bishul than the bishul of a light-bulb filament. And we use
Shabbos clocks for those (without being able to resolve whether or
not it's really bishul).

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org            you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org       You light a candle.
(973) 916-0287                  - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l

At 08:28 PM 3/26/01 +0200, Carl M. Sherer wrote:
>Why wouldn't it be like eating Matzo on Erev Pesach? I was taught
>not to eat any Matzo products on Erev Pesach.

I think you were taught wrong :-) .

KT,
YGB
ygb@aishdas.org      http://www.aishdas.org/rygb

CS> Why wouldn't it be like eating Matzo on Erev Pesach? I was taught not
CS> to eat any Matzo products on Erev Pesach.


The Mishna Berurah suggests kneidlach for Shalosh Seudos...  I immediately
also came onto the idea of matzo flour "rolls", but I wondered why one
couldn't
take it further and use them for ALL THREE meals of Shabbos?  The entire
house could be cometz-free before Shabbos & the bitul could be done Friday
morning along with the biur...

Carl Sherer:
>Why wouldn't it be like eating Matzo on Erev Pesach? I was taught 
>not to eat any Matzo products on Erev Pesach.
     
RYGB wrote:
>I think you were taught wrong :-) .
     
In other words, if you can't be yotzeh the mitzvah of matzah with it, then you 
are permitted to eat it erev Pesach.

Gil Student

From: Yitzchok Willroth [mailto:willroth@jersey.net]
> The Mishna Berurah suggests kneidlach for Shalosh Seudos... I immediately
> also came onto the idea of matzo flour "rolls", but I wondered why one
> couldn't take it further and use them for ALL THREE meals of Shabbos?
> The entire house could be chometz-free before Shabbos & the bitul could
> be done Friday morning along with the biur...

Not only that, but we wouldn't have to daven at a hashkama minyan on Shabbos
morning.  AFAIK, most shuls are davening early that Shabbos, so that people
can eat before sof zman achilas chametz.  Out of curiosity, does anyone know
of any shuls that aren't davening early and are instead counseling the
eating of matzo flour rolls?

BTW, does the minhag of not eating gebrochts start at sof z'man achilah or
at nightfall?  The reason to be meikel is that the issur kares starts only
at nightfall.  (Of course, I'm speaking from the perspective of an
anti-gebrochts person!)

Kol tuv,
Moshe

In the post on Challah and Se'udos Shabbos, I mentioned the two elements in 
Shabbos - Friday night, our contribution to Shabbos, called "Is'arusa 
d'l'Tatta" (Awakening from Below - IdT) vs. Shabbos morning, called: 
"Is'arusa d'l'Eila" (Awakening from Above IdE).

R' Shlomo Fisher notes that Shabbos is, overwhelmingly, a manifestation of 
IdE, as opposed to Yom Tov, which is IdT - except for Pesach, where the 
Ge'ulah was an IdE - without Am Yisroel's merit, or even great longing 
(which is why, says R' Tzadok, the Kohanim ate Challah the night of Pesach, 
and why, I believe - as I kind of tikkun - we read Shir ha'Shirim - the 
ultimate statemet of IdT - on Pesach).

RSF explains that this is why Pesach is called Shabbos ("Me'mochoras 
ha'Shabbos"). He notes that this year we do no read the Haftara of the Dry 
Bones, which R' Hai Gaon says we read because Techiyas ha'Meisim will occur 
on Chol ha'Moed - because this year there is no Shabbos Chol ha'Mo'ed, and 
Techiyas ha'Meisim is an IdT thing (I believe this why we say there is 
a  *tal* shel techiyah, not geshem - geshem comes down, IdE; tal condenses 
on the ground, IdT) - it needs merit, and the first and last days of Pesach 
(Keriyas Yam Suf despite "halalu ovdei Az v'halalu ovdei AZ) are IdE days.

Chol ha'Moed, on the other hand, is an IdT thing, because it is linked to 
Sefirah, and Sefirah is our IdT to ascend towards Mattan Torah. (He 
links  this to Matzoh on Pesach vs. Chometz - Shtei ha'Lechem - on Shavu'os.)

He notes that all the  days of Pesach correspond to days of the week of 
other Yomim Tovim, and the Tur gives A"T Ba"Sh simanim for this. He adds 
one of his own: The second day of Pesach - the initial day of Sefiras 
ha'Omer, is on  the same day of the week as Gimmel Adar. Gimmel Adar is the 
date that the pasuk in Ezra says was the Chanukas haBayis of Bayis Sheni. 
Bayis Rishon was IdE - focus  on Nevu'ah. Bayis Sheni was IdT - focus on 
the creation of Torah she'be'al Peh. Chacham (Bayis Sheni) adif me'Navi 
(Bayis Rishon) (BB 12a).

Re: ma-im she lanu- just reading over kitzur shulchan aruch- would
someone enlighten me about this intriguing business of suspending a
piece of metal in the water if that night will be the equinox? Is this
still done anywhere? If this has already been discussed, please escuse me.

Thanks
Gila Atwood

> In other words, if you can't be yotzeh the mitzvah of matzah 
> with it, then you are permitted to eat it erev Pesach.

What about Matza Ashira?

Akiva

From: gil.student@citicorp.com [mailto:gil.student@citicorp.com]
> In other words, if you can't be yotzeh the mitzvah of matzah 
> with it, then you are permitted to eat it erev Pesach.

Rav Jolte zt"l, former chief rabbi of Yerushalayim, suggested eating matzos
that were baked "she'lo l'shem matzo mitzvah" - since you cannot be yotze
with them on Pesach - you can eat them erev Pessach.

The Alshich haKadosh comments on the opening words of mes. Pesachim: Or
li'arba'ah 'asar, bodekin es hachameitz li'or haneir.

The Alshich turns this into a bar mitzvah derashah (for which I thank him
very much :-).

"Or li'arba'ah 'asar", when you just turn bar mitzvah, going on your 14th
year, 

"bodekin es hachameitz" you inspect your soul for chameitz,

"li'or haneir", by the light of your newly-acquired yeitzer tov.

This got me thinking: I assume we all know derashos about what chameitz
means. I also assume we all know the Ari's inyan of requiring that we
clean our homes even of crumbs; that by doing so we gain extra siyata
dishmaya in avoiding cheit.

How many of us actually use these ideas as qavanos during spring-cleaning
and the formal bedikah? Pesach cleaning is a pretty mindless chore;
we can actually use the time for a cheshbon hanefeh, cleaning out internal
"chameitz".

When cleaning the sefarim shrank, why not think about how you relate
to those sefarim. Think about getting rid of the middos that lead us
to bitul torah, or the leavening of our egos because we may know things
others don't.

Don't just pick up the junk in the kid's room. (How long was that
peanut-butter sandwich down there?) Look around; think of all the time
they spent in that room for things they didn't do - but you were too
tired to listen to them. Or the

When cleaning closets, take a serious look at your clothes. The expression
"dress to kill", does it refer to malbin penei chaveiro? Tzeni'us as a
lashon anivus is no less important than the usage WRT ervah.

I will only touch on the kitchen and bedroom as there is far too much to
say and I think you got the jist by now. Zerizus in getting up in the
morning. How one relates to one's spouse. Hakaras hatov for the time
spent making the food or cleaning the chulent pot. Did you spend time
sitting around the kitchen table with the family -- or at the dining
room table with a gemara?

Vechulu...

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org            you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org       You light a candle.
(973) 916-0287                  - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l

O.C. 443:1 Chometz m'sheish shaos u'l'mala b'yom yud-daled assur
b'hanah... ...v'asaruhu chachamim shtei shaos kodem, d'hainu
m'tchelis shah chamishis. U'mihu, kal shah chamishis, mutar
b'hanah... ...U'm'tchelis shah sheshis u'l'mala asaruhu gam b'hanah.

After a cursory review of the sources, I can only find a single reason
for the gezera: the possibility of confusing the time by as much as two
hours on a cloudy day. Why, then, were the chochamim gozer two hours by
achila, but only an hour by hanah? Obviously, there's a different reason,
but I seem to be missing it.

Any help?

Yitzchok Willroth
willroth@jersey.net

A couple of vos-iz-der-chiluks ago, RYGB discussed the opinion of the
Beis Yosef that one does not make a brocho on Bittul Chometz because
it is b'lev and one does not make a brocho on a dovor she'b'lev. Yet
the Gr"a holds that one does make a brocho on hirhur in Divrei Torah,
despite the fact that this, too is b'lev.

In a similar vain... I saw an interesting Or Zarua (chelek alef; siman
140) who writes that we don't make a brocho on emuna, yirah and ahavas
Hashem because..... they are mitzvos tmidiyos.

Why doesn't he say like the BY that one does not make a brocho on a
dovor she'b'lev?

We asked:
> This question is actually taken by RCPS from a Poilish source, the Shu"T
> of the Chiddushei HoRi"m (first Gerrer Rebbe) OC #7 (vaguely related to
> VIDC #4!):

> In the first perek of Sukkah we learn that if a Sukkah is higher than
> twenty amos and you place pillows and blankets in the Sukkah in order to
> diminish its height and are "mevattel" them there (let's call this BKK -
> Bittul Karim u'Kesasos) that this is halachically invalid, "battla da'ato
> eitzel kol odom" - no one, normally, is mevattel these objects in such
> a manner - yet, Bittul Chometz, according to Rashi and the Rambam is a
> process by which the chometz becomes battel like dirt and a non-substance.
> The difficulty is: When the chometz is very expensive and valuable
> [single malt scotch?], why do we not say by BC as well "battla da'ato
> eitzel kol odom". If you propose that the mitzvos of Tashbisu and Bal
> Yeira'eh underlie a distinction, why should the mitzvah of Sukkah not
> work in a similar fashion by BKK?

> Voss Iz Der Chilluk?
> What Derech have you used to resolve that Chilluk?

The Ri"m himself gives an extremely complex answer to the question - all 
you Litvaks out there, of course, missed it.

It runs something to the effect that since Chometz is assur b'hano'oh it is 
omed l'hisbattel by every Jew who wants to fulfill the laws of the Torah. 
It is, therefore, like the scenario by Sukkah of straw, that does require 
verbal (or conscious mental) bittul ("stam" does not work) to diminish  the 
height of the Sukkah - but is then effective. It isn't battel 
automatically, however, because it is not dirt unless one deems it as such 
through the tool of bittul.

The Ri"m says this only works if you hold chometz she'ovar olov ha'Pesach 
is, indeed, assur b'hano'oh: If you hold it is muttar b'hano'oh (machalokes 
Tano'im), then chometz would, indeed, be like karim u'kesasos and not be 
battel! Wow!

There is no need to further identify a Poilish mahalach - this is it.

RCPS himself offers my shvogger's answer (variations on which several of 
you suggested):
>R' Shimon Derech (Sharey Yosher 5:23 see last week's answers!) --
>bittul chametz works because of the hitztarfus of 'shnei devarim sh'aino
>breshuso shel adam' etc. with your bittul, i.e. the Torah defines chametz
>as afra and batel, your da'as just is a trigger for that. Sukkah is
>being defined completely by you.

Expanded on the basis of a Ramban at the beginning of Pesachim, plus some 
additional explanation that by Sukkah you need to be mevattel mamash and 
BKK as afar mamash is invalid.

I very much liked Micha's logical distinction between two types of bittul. 
I find it somewhat Brisker in its "Tzvei Dinim" approach.

>Perhaps the problem is merely a verbal confusion based on the word "bittul".

>Yadu'ah that the multiplicity of meanings causes an ambiguity in understanding
>how bittul chameitz works. The three shitos I'm aware of base it on: a-
>neder makes it assur bihana'ah, thereby removing ba'alus; b- directly making
>it hefker; c- rendering kia'frah di'ar'ah. In short, bitul chameitz is
>about making the chameitz or one's ba'alus over the chameitz void.

>None of those, though, as similar to the bitul discussed in hilchos sukkah.
>There we aren't making the pillows and blankets void, we are making them
>tafeil to the sukkah. If they were void, their height wouldn't add to that
>of the floor. This is actually closer to basis lidavar ha'asur.

>Perhaps bittul in the sense of making something tafeil simply runs by
>different rules.

My cousin wrote:

>At first glance I was thinking that there could be an obvious 
>"Chilluk".  Let us assume that the Mitzvah can "shaf" the "Daas", this 
>logic can operate perhaps on a similar basis as the Rambam's halacha by 
>Gittin where we can beat the husband to give a Get because a person's real 
>desire is to fulfill what the Torah wants. Therefore by BC even though 
>logically a person would not ordinarily want to be "Mevatel" an expensive 
>bottle one could hear that the Mitzvah can create the accepted 
>"Daas".  However by Succah first you require the BKK, where we have the 
>problem of "Battla da'ato" which really has nothing to do with the actual 
>Mitzvah, then once we would say that the Karim uKesasos are "Botel" 
>"memaile" the succah would be  a Kosher Succah. This is not really a case 
>of the Mitzvah creating the "Daas" as there are two separate steps and the 
>Mitzvah is only a "Yotzeh Poal" of the Bitul.

I would rephrase that as a R' Chaim Telzer approach:

Yesh lachkor if the Mitzva/Issur is the catalyst (sibba) for the Da'as 
(chometz) or the Da'as the catalyst for the Mitzva/Issur (sukkah) - and 
take it from there.

I would identify R' Gershon Dubin's, and R' Carl Sherer's similar:

>         The chashivus of the chometz is a side issue which is taken care 
> of by our umdena that you don't want to be over on the lav chomur of
>BY/BY (how's that for nonstandard abbreviation?). No such umdena that you 
>want to be mevatel something in the sukka to make the sukka kosher.

As the simple "Sefardi" approach of the week. And, my brother in law's 
admittedly tortured:

>5) For the Briskers: there are 2 dinim in bittul by sukkah 1) defining the 
>cheftza shel sukkah 2) the chovas hagavra of yeshivas sukah. E.g. by rain 
>on the first night the Ran and Tos. disagree whether it is a psul in 
>yeshivas sukah, or a psul in the cheftza shel sukah, nafkah minah
>whether you have to go out in the rain anyway or is it equivalent to 
>sitting in nothing bec. there is no cheftza shel sukah. So perhaps batla
>da'ato is a psul in being mekayeim the chovas hagavra, but in terms of the 
>cheftza shel sukah, ain hachi nami the height has been diminished. By 
>bittul chametz getting rid of the cheftza is sufficient. Two notes: #5 is 
>a stretch of imagination, and is not really worthy of
>being called a Brisker teirutz.

As a potentially Hungarian sevoro, bringing in the extrinsic yeshivas 
sukkah as a factor.

I, myself, would like to add a chilluk that I think Rogatchoverish 
(although I may just be flattering myself by saying so!):

The truth is that, in fact, BC and BKK are identical, but the needs of the 
mitzvos/issurim differ. Both are Bittul Eichus - the quality of the object 
is rendered nil. And, they both can have substance - we do not see the 
chometz as mevu'ar, but as afar. Technically, one may theoretically view 
the ku"k similarly.

But: by BC, the necessary Bittul is not a davar nimshach: It it a one-time 
transaction. Once rendered afar, it is afar, and any new "Achashavei" is  a 
new Ma'aseh (which is ineffective after zman issuro anyway!).

By Sukkah, however, a la the Rogatchover's (and, more well known, R' Shimon 
Shkop's) definition of Kiddushin as a davar nimshach, the BKK must last all 
seven days (at least, the meshech of the mitzva!) and needs to be 
constantly replenished. It is the ongoing regard of ku"k as afar that is 
untenable.

KT,
YGB
ygb@aishdas.org      http://www.aishdas.org/rygb

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