Avodah Mailing List

Volume 09 : Number 065

Monday, July 22 2002

• displaying affection
• The purpose of Tisha' be'Av
• RE: Avodah V9 #64
• Rabbi Kessin
• Chofetz Chaim Heritage Foundation video presentation "From Golus to Geulah"
• Re: Chofetz Chaim Heritage Foundation video presentation "From Golus to Geulah"
• RE: Shir Shel Yom/ kriyas hatorah
• RE: Shir Shel Yom/ kriyas hatorah
• Re: Shir Shel Yom/ kriyas hatorah
• Insight 5762-41: Science and God
• HaMaayan / The Torah Spring - Parashat Vaetchanan
• The purpose of Tisha be'Av
• The purpose of Tisha' be'Av
• Houses in Chu"l
• Re: displaying affection
• Fwd: Insight 5762-41: Science and God
• Re: Milk and Fish together--prohibited?
• Re: displaying affection

I remember learning that one should not hug or kiss a child while in a shul.  
Does anyone know where this brought down?

Shavua Tov
Joel Rich

Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote 
> I wonder about that last part. Is the ikkar kiyum of 9 be'Av about
> teshuvah, or about aveilus?

The 7 deNechemta connect 9 be'Av to Rosh haShanah, to "teshuvah season".
I would therefore like to suggest that 9 be'Av is pre-teshuvah, not
teshuvah itself.

As others have mentioned, RYBS develops thsi idea at length. There are
several pieces on this topic in the recently published sefer based on
the shiuruim of RYBS on Aveilus and Tisha B'Av

Furthermore, RYBS explains the purpose of the 7 deNechemta. I would
summerize it but I don't remember the details offhand.

RGS wrote
> The following is from a kinah about the 3 towns. It starts with "Mi
> yiten roshi mayim".
> "Vechi ein lehosif moed shever lesaverah ve'ein lehakdim zulasi lacharah
> tachas kein hayom livyasi a'orerah..."
> This seems to imply that one may not institute a new day of mourning
> for a tragedy.

This line from this kina is (by report) RYBS's main proof text arguing
against yom Hashoa (I heard that this proof text was also cited by the
Brisker rov)

Meir Shinnar

From: "Feldman, Mark" <MFeldman@CM-P.COM>
> I would appreciate it if one or more of the chevrah would summarize
> the presentations. I'm especially curious to hear a detailed summary
> of what Rabbi Kessin had to say.

Rabbi Kessin spoke for a full hour. They ran out of time and did not
play Rabbi Krohn's speech here. They did give everyone who attended two
copies of Rabbi Kessin's speech so it should be very easy to get a copy.
(if you want e mail me and I will mail you a copy).

Most of what Rabbi Kessin spoke, was that Hashem does not prosecute Jews
for Aveiros, and when he does He is lenient in judgement and punishment.
However, the Satan does do his best to punish us and use everything
against us. Everytime we speak Lashon Hara we set the Satan up to
punish us for all of our misdeeds, but not only is the speaker punished,
but so is the listener and the victim.

The latter part of his speech was more how the Satan takes things and
turns them around against us. He showed how Xtianity took much from
our Torah, but Xtians have been the source of so much of our troubles
from Crusades to the Holocaust.

He discussed the approaching time of Moshiach, using the 6 days of
creation to the millenia of history. The sixth day, Friday, is erev
Shabbos, and is time when we start getting ready for the Moshiach, and the
light of Moshiach started to light at the beggining of the sixth Milenia.
The year 5000 was the year in which the Zohar became public.

He finished with a discussion of science and how science is beginning
to teach us the secrets of Maasei Bereshis, but how the Satan continues
to misuse the light of Moshiach and uses science to drive Jews away
from Yiddishkeit. Before science there was no athiesm.

This short summary of course is very simple and leaves out much of a
lengthy speech.

Harry J. Weiss
hjweiss@panix.com

"Feldman, Mark" <MFeldman@CM-P.COM> wrote:
> I would appreciate it if one or more of the chevrah would summarize
> the presentations. I'm especially curious to hear a detailed summary
> of what Rabbi Kessin had to say.

You can call them up and order a tape or even an audio visual CD. They
were giving away the tape of Rabbi Kessin for free in order that people
should pass it along.

"Newman,Saul Z" <Saul.Z.Newman@kp.org> wrote:
> curious if people went to this program and what rxn they have

and:

"Feldman, Mark" <MFeldman@CM-P.COM> wrote:
> I would appreciate it if one or more of the chevrah would summarize
> the presentations. I'm especially curious to hear a detailed summary
> of what Rabbi Kessin had to say.

I did not see Rabbi Kessin's portion but at the urging of my wife,
I saw the R. Pesach Krohn portion of tape after the fast. She received
permission to take it home so I could view it.

The fascinating part of R Krohn's speech is the story he told about
the BT from "a small community 60 miles away from Detroit". It just so
happens that the individuals involved were an integral part of my youth.

The idea expressed by R. Krohn was the importance of the individual.
i.e. the power that one person can have to effect the world. He spoke
about my home town of Toledo, but before I get to the substance of
his address, a little background about me. The Frum community in
Toledo consisted of the family of Rabbi Katz, (R. Moshe Feinstein's
brother-in-law) and the families of the Two Shochtim, one of whom was
my father.

Growing up in Toledo, a Jew could grow up to become a "Gutten Goy" (as
my father put it). To that extent, when I was a young child in there,
my father saw me gravitating away towards my friends, all of whom were
either Goyim or completely irreligious Jews as a result of my attendance
in a Toledo public school. So in the fourth grade he sent me "away"
to Detroit where I boarded by a nice family coming home for Shabbos. I
hated being away from home at such an early age (8) but for my father
it was either that... or losing my Yiddishkeit! But that's another story.

The Detroit day school was the prototype for all subsequent day schools
founded by Torah U'Mesorah across the country. But I was not the first one
from Toledo to attend the relatively new day school of Beth Yehudah. This
is where the Pesach Krohn story comes in. There was a family in Toledo
who was... quasi Frum. The father, Irving Glassman, who was not Shomer
Shabbos was the president of my Father's Shul. (Even though my father
was not the Rav of the Shul it was "his" Shul because there was not an
individual Rav for each of the three Orthodox Shuls. Rabbi Katz used to
"make the rounds" but primarily was based in his own Shul. So my father
who was hired as the Chazan of the Shul became the defacto Rav except
for those times Rabbi Katz showed up which was only a few times a year.)

Mr. Glassman's wife was a Giyores and was probably the only woman in
Toledo who used a Mikvah (besides the women of the above mentioned
Frum families). This of course brings up the issue of whether she was
really a Ger Tzedek or not, since there was no real Shmiras Shabbos,
and wehether her children were really Jewish. But again this is another
subject. Their son, David was the first Jew out of Toledo to attend a
day school and went off to Detroit. He lasted there two years.

As R. Krohn proceeds to describe this young fellow, David, was exposed to
a yeoman effort to be Mekarev him by two pioneering Detroit Mechanchim,
Rabbi Sholom Goldstien and Rabbi Avraham Abba Friedman. But in the
end this tall good-looking blond blue-eyed "Shegetz" of a boy was more
interested in pursuing the pleasures of the non Torah world. So he left
Beth Yehudah to go to public school in Toledo.

During the course of Rabbi's Goldstein and Freidman Herculean effort
to be Mekarev this boy they brought a busload of Beth Yehudah Students
to Toledo to attend David's Bar Mitzvah. Rabbi Freidman spoke and
inspired another boy who had attended the Bar Mitzvah, Jackie Meuller,
who until then pretty much hated anything to do with Yiddishkeit. At
about that time Rabbi London founder and head of Heichal HaTorah, one
of the earliest BT Yeshivos in the US, approached Rabbi Freidman about
possible recruits for his new BT camp Machneh Torah (Camp MaTo). Rabbi
Freidman recommended this young boy whom he noticed was mesmerized by
the speech. Jackie (now Yankel) became so inspired that he was easily
convinced into going to Camp MaTo and after subsequently learning a few
years in Heichal HaTorah, he ended up in Lakewood and has since become
a tremendous Talmud Chacham. He is, also, a very successful real estate
tycoon and supporter of Torah. He still lives in Lakewood. He inspired his
family to become Frum and ultimately to move to Lakewood. His Father used
to work at a McDonald's type restaurant and served many a cheeseburger
to many a Jew but ended up working in the Lakewood dining room.

Rabbi Krohn's point was that one never knows where one's efforts will lead
one. In attempting to be Mekarev an individual who ended up rejecting
Torah another individual became and was the cause of an entire family's
returning to Torah and all of his children and grandchildren are today
Frum. In Rabbi Freidman's effort on one person with whom he was ultimately
unsuccessful he ended up saving "an entire world".

What was interesting to me was that of all the people who saw this video
presentation on Tisha B'Av, I was probably the only one who knew exactly
whom he was talking about.

HM

R' Aryeh Stein wrote <<< I remember being in one shul for a bar mitzvah,
and before laining, the gabbai made the announcement that the Rav will
be paying attention to the [bar mitzvah boy's] laining and, therefore,
only the Rav will make any necessary corrections and everyone else should
kindly keep quiet (or something to that effect.) >>>

Rav EM Teitz makes such an announcement occasionally in Elizabeth. When
he does, he often mentions that the determination of whether a specific
mistake is serious enough to justify rereading -- or serious enough
to justify embarrassing the lainer -- is actually a p'sak halacha,
and should not be done by anyone other than the rav of the shul.

Akiva Miller

> Also, if one encounters a newbie baal kriyah who is clearly inattentive and 
> doesn't have either the ability or patience to prepare properly (as the one 
> in charge of laining in my shul, I often know), is it so terrible to 
> discourage such a person from laining in the future?

From: Stein, Aryeh [mailto:AStein@wtplaw.com]
> I think that such a person should definitely be 
> discouraged from laining in the future, but, of course, this 
> should be done privately and in a gentle manner.

I agree that the actual discouraging (if done at all) should be done
privately. However, I see a benefit in publicly correcting the baal
kriyah because otherwise other potential baalei kriyah will think that
such a kriyas hatorah is sufficient. It's an issue of setting a standard
for proper kriyas hatorah and sticking by the standard.

If young baalei kriyah want to improve their laining skills but are
afraid of being publicly corrected, they can always try first laining
at a youth minyan or the like.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

On Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 12:26:41PM -0400, Stein, Aryeh wrote:
: I think that such a person should definitely be discouraged from
: laining in the future, but, of course, this should be done privately and in
: a gentle manner.

And until you're SURE you can do it non-insultingly...

Remember that leining is miderabanan or midivrei soferim, while malbin
penei chaveiro is a de'oraisa we're told to treat as though it were
piku'ach nefesh.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                     Time flies...
micha@aishdas.org                        ... but you're the pilot.
http://www.aishdas.org                           - R' Zelig Pliskin
Fax: (413) 403-9905          

[An interesting he'arah (Insight?) on emunah. -mi]

INSIGHT
5762 - #41
SCIENCE AND GOD

T.B. Shabbat 75a declares "your [the Jewish nation's] chachma [wisdom]
and bina [understanding] in the eyes of the nations, as referred to in
Devarim 4:6, to be the science of astronomy. Torah Temima, Devarim 4:6,
note 7 explains that the importance of astronomy lies in its ability to
challenge idolatry, specifically the idolatrous worship of the celestial
bodies. In demonstrating that the planetary systems follow set rules, we
demonstrate that they are not beings with an independent will. Thus they
cannot be divine.1 Ultimately, this is an important value that applies
beyond astronomy to science in general. As we are able to gain further
wisdom and understanding of the world in which we live, we are able to
reject superstitions and mythological interpretations of life. Science
attacks the validity of idolatry. Yet, in the same manner, science can
also challenge belief in God.

Idolatry developed from humanity's inability to explain the phenomena
of life. As humanity continued to confront event after event that it
could not understand, it postulated an external force -- the gods --
that controlled and manipulated life according to the determinations
of their wills. Humanity, thus, attempted to positively affect life
by appeasing these gods through idolatrous worship. As more and more
events were able to be explained scientifically, this model came under
attack. Phenomena were the result of scientific rules not the independent
wills of the gods. Life was to be affected positively by understanding
and applying the rules; not by some false appeasement of postulated
gods. Yet, belief in God could be challenged in a similar fashion. The
reality of scientific rules could also be deemed to contest the existence
of an independent Single Will. Today, in fact, it could be argued that it
is this perspective of science that is a greater threat to Jewish theism
than idolatry. How so many Jewish -- and other -- believers yearn for
the miracle that demonstrates the existence of an independent Single
Will above the rules of science? Yet, according to T.B. Shabbat 75a,
the verse declares astronomy -- which can be extended to science -- to be
"your wisdom and understanding in the eyes of the nations." Furthermore,
Devarim 4:7 continues that it is thereby -- and not through miracles --
that the nations will declare the greatness of the Jewish nation that
has God so close to them. Unlike its effect on idolatry, the verse
declares that science actually promotes the acceptance of God.

The very understanding of Devarim 4:6 as applying to astronomy
demands investigation. Everything within the verse -- and the
context of the surrounding verses -- clearly points to Torah as the
wisdom and understanding to which the verse is referring. And indeed
the vast majority of commentators understand the verse as such. 2
Furthermore, how can astronomy even be described as "your wisdom and
understanding"? Science is the province of all peoples; it is Torah that
is the specific treasure of the Jewish nation. Astronomy just does not
fit as the object of the verse. What then is T.B. Shabbat 75a stating?

At issue may be our very understanding of God and His interaction
with the world. Sforno states that the nations of the world will see
wisdom in Torah for it was the first system of laws devoted totally to
justice and righteousness. Ntziv, HaEmek Davar, focusing on the study
of Torah, declares that it is the remarkable, expansive, creative
intellectual system of Torah that will impress the nations. The key
word is system. The nations of the world will recognize the genius of
the system and, identifying the Divine roots of the system, recognize
the closeness of God to the Jewish nation. As such, it is not in how
God acts independently from the system that we see God. We see God in
the genius of the system that He created. This recognition begins with
Torah but then it can extend to science. T.B. Shabbat 75a declares that
it is a mitzvah to make astronomical calculations. It is a mitzvah to
demonstrate the genius of God's systems. And what better way to fully
demonstrate this genius to the world than in science, the system that
the nations are most familiar. Yet, thereby, as we infuse astronomy
with the recognition of the Divine, it becomes part of our wisdom --
the wisdom of God in reality

Humanity turned to idols because it could not understand life. It
therefore wanted to rise above the parameters of reality in order to
attempt control of life. Many people have a similar view of God. Their
connection to God is built upon the miraculous, upon the desire to ignore
the parameters of reality as they turn to the Independent Will that
is above these parameters. But that is not where someone truly finds
God. It is in the parameters of reality, in the genius of the rules of
the systems that the Independent Single Will has created -- including,
of course and foremost, the system of Torah -- that one truly finds God.

The question is why. To most people, science and religion are at odds --
effectively the Will and Wisdom of God and the will and wisdom of the
human being are perceived to be in continuous conflict. Science -- in fact
knowledge in general -- is often seen as an attack upon belief for it is
deemed to promote the greatness of the human being over the Greatness of
God. The mantra is that the less we are, the more God is; and the less
we make God, the more we can aggrandize ourselves. Intellectual systems
coupled with human comprehension is thus deemed to challenge belief. Yet
the verse declares exactly the opposite. The verse declares that the
nations will see the greatness of "your wisdom" and then recognize that
there must be closeness to God. The mantra of Torah is that the more the
human being is, the more God is; and the less the greatness of the human
being is seen, the less God is.seen. For there is no greater praise of
God that the fact that He was able to and did create the human being,
with independent will, able to think.

Rabbi Benjamin Hecht

Footnotes

1) See also Iyun Yaakov on Ein Yaakov, Shabbat 75a which makes a similar
point. In scientifically showing and predicting planetary movement,
unique celestial events cannot be interpreted in a idolatrous, religious
manner. For example, the correct astronomical prediction of an eclipse
can prevent the chaos that leads to an idolatrous interpretation --
i.e. the gods must be angry -- of this event. I thank Rabbi Asher Turin
for this insight.
2) For example, Rabbi Shimshon Raphael Hirsch, perhaps expanding on
the words of Rashi, understands it to be the study -- and practice --
of Torah. Malbim specifically focuses on the chukim, the mitzvot that
are deemed to be beyond explanation. There are different approaches to
the verse...but the common thread is that the verse is referring to an
aspect of Torah.

NISHMA
www.nishma.org
mail@nishma.org

IN CANADA: 322 Wilson Ave.  Toronto, Ontario M3H 1S8
416-630-0588 fax: 416-630-7702

IN THE U.S.A.: 1740 Ocean Ave.  Suite 8-P Brooklyn, New York 11230
718-338-6515

Rabbi Benjamin Hecht, Director

[I thought these thoughts on kavanah and on the Alter miKelm were
on topic. -mi]

                    Hamaayan / The Torah Spring
                       Edited by Shlomo Katz

                             ********

"I implored Hashem at that time . . ." (3:23)

R' Chaim Meir Hager z"l (the Vizhnitzer Rebbe; died 1972) offers the
following suggestions for improving the quality of our prayers:

1. One should demand of himself during his prayers not to look to his
sides and not to hear anything that is going on around him.

2. One should make a supreme effort with all his strength to focus on
the words. One should imagine that the entire world is desolate and
nothing exists besides himself and the words of the prayers.

3. One should pray with joy and great enthusiasm, and with love and awe
for G-d. One should not allow thoughts of his past sins to interfere
with his prayers, for such thoughts are the work of the yetzer hara.

4. One should reflect on the fact that angels must wait until their
appointed times to praise G-d [see Rashi to Bereishit 32:27], while
lowly man can praise G-d at any time. [This is indicates how much G-d
values man's prayers.]

5. One should pray from a siddur, for this drives away foreign thoughts.

6. If one has recited part of the prayers without the proper kavanah /
focus, he should not lose heart. He should simply start to focus from
that point onward.

7. One should pray with the congregation, not come late and "jump on
the moving train" at Yehi Khavod and jump off at U'va Le'tziyon.

8. One should not speak from the beginning of the prayers until the end.
One must remember that he is standing before the Great and Awesome G-d!
(Quoted in Chaim Me'irim, 8 Nissan 5762, p. 56)

On the same subject, R' Hager related the following story:

A chassid once came to R' Chaim Hager of Kossov z"l (1795-1854; known
as the "Torat Chaim") and complained that he was bothered by "foreign
thoughts" during his prayers. R' Chaim told him:

"If a Jew wakes up, washes his hands in the manner of G-d- fearing people,
recites Birchot Ha'Torah as required, immerses in the mikveh, studies
Mishnah or Gemara or Zohar, or recites Tehilim (each person according
to his own level), and then goes to pray, and even so, he is bothered
by mundane thoughts - those can be called `foreign thoughts.'

"However, if a person wakes up, balances his checkbook or reviews other
business matters, and then goes to pray with no preparation, the mundane
thoughts that enter his head are not `foreign' - they are that person's
own thoughts!" (Ibid. p. 70)

                             ********

                     R' Simcha Zissel Ziv z"l
                       (The "Alter of Kelm")
             born 5584 (1824) - died 8 Av 5658 (1898)

Of the three leading students of R' Yisrael Salanter, founder of the
mussar movement, R' Simcha Zissel was the one who R' Yisrael expected
to carry on the movement. R' Simcha Zissel devoted his entire adult life
to R' Yisrael's teachings. Though he never held any official position --
when he was offered the rabbinate of St. Petersburg, he recommended his
friend R' Yitzchak Blazer instead -- his students included many of the
mussar greats of the next generation: R' Nosson Zvi Finkel of Slobodka,
R' Yosef Yoizel Horowitz of Novhardok, R' Aharon Bakst, R' Reuven Dessler
(whose son authored the classic Michtav M'Eliyahu), R' Nachum Ziv, and R'
Hirsch Broida.

The historian, R' Dov Katz, summarized R' Simcha Zissel's approach to
mussar / character improvement as consisting of three guiding principles:
(1) one should become emotionally involved in his studies, whether
joyful or sad; (2) one should ask himself after everything he learns,
"What did I think before, and what do I know differently now?"; and (3)
one's study should always include stripping away the veneer and getting
to the essence of the topic.

R' Simcha Zissel taught that the whole world is a classroom where one
can learn to improve his character and increase his belief in G-d.
Such study was not limited to books or to Torah sources. Of course,
worthwhile lessons do not come merely from observation. Rather, intense
reflection is required. Also, one must realize that this study never
ends. This is why Torah scholars are called, "talmidei chachamim" /
"students of wise men." R' Simcha Zissel used to quote Socrates, who
said that true wisdom is knowing that one doesn't know.

R' Simcha Zissel was very sickly his whole life. Therefore, much of his
teaching was through letters that he wrote to his students, rather than
in person. (He also encouraged his followers to establish groups to
strengthen each other and review his teachings.) Only a small portion
of his written legacy has been published (Based on Tnuat Hamussar).

[Ed. note: This biography is dedicated to Mr. Bert King - R' Simcha
Zissel's great-great-grandson, a distinguished member of the Silver
Spring, Maryland community, and a dear fried of Hamaayan - who will be
making aliyah in the coming weeks iy"h.]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
HaMaayan, Copyright © 2002 by Shlomo Katz and Torah.org.
Posted by Alan Broder, ajb@torah.org .

>>>The question could be viewed in an entirely different way: Is 9 be'Av a
ta'anis (and therefore a day for teshuvah) that has other inuyim or is it a
day of aveilus which is expressed by inuyim -- one of which happens to be
fasting?<<<

GRI"Z (al harambam) proves that 9 Av has 2 dinim: aveilus (see ta'anis 30)
and ta'anis tzibbur.  Nafka minah l'dina - rechitza is prohibited only with
chamin m'din ta'anis tzibur, but even b'tzonen for an avel (Ta'anis 13),
also for rechitzas kol gufo (Pesachim 54).  On 9 Av both issurim coincide. 
Ramban writes rechitza is prohibited immediatly following seudah hamafseket,
while issurim of n'eilas hasandel, kefiyas hamita, and tashmish only take
effect at night.  Brisker Rav explains that rechitza m'din ta'anis is chal
at the point of kabalas ta'anis by seudah hamafseket, but other issurim
m'din aveilus (including rechitza b'tzonen) take effect only at night.  
Emek Bracha raises this safek by 9 Av which is chal after Shabbos: issurei
aveilus take effect only at nightfall, but there should be an issur rechitza
m'din ta'anis after seudah hamafseket even on Shabbos m'din ta'anis - see
S.A. on this.

Not only is ta'anis a time for tshuva, but the Rambam (ch. 13) writes that
this is the purpose of aveilus as well, "yefached v'yidag v'yifashfesh
b'ma'asav v'yachzor b'tshuvah", so the two themes overlap.

-Chaim

<<Rav Kulefsky z"l gave a shiur on this issue a couple of years ago.  Tisha
B'av is a day when the halachos of Taanis and Aveilus are combined.

me: The hanhagos of aveilus are more predominant in the morning (sitting
on the floor, the haftara reading is not Teshuva-oriented) and the Taanis
hanhagos more predominant in the afternoon.>>

Rabbi Yonasan Sacks, in a parasha sheet for Tisha B'av, quotes the
Chassam Sofer as saying that if you don't have 10 people fasting, they
can nevertheless read the keria of T"B because of the aveilus aspect.

He (RYS, not Chasam Sofer; I didn't look it up) does not address if
this is only for the morning keria or the afternoon as well.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

From: "Avi Burstein" <avislists@subdimension.com>
>> The issue of hard cover kinos is no different from building
>> a house (vs. a tent) in chu"l.

>I seem to recall learning once that halacha is against building a
>permanent living structure in chu"l. Can anyone corroborate that with a
>more substantial source than "recall learning once"?

Tzavo'as R' Yehuda he'Chasid includes a stricture against building
a house where no house has ever been built before. I assume it only
applies in Chu"l, as in RY there is a mitzvah of Yishuv EY. I think this
is a classic example of the selective observance of TzRhC, as unlike
the stuff about not totally closing a door or window, which lots of
people seem to be makpid on, I see here in Monsey that clealry Jews of
all types disregard this one!

Kol Tuv,
YGB
ygb@aishdas.org      http://www.aishdas.org/rygb

From: <Joelirich@aol.com>
> I remember learning that one should not hug or kiss a child while in a shul.
> Does anyone know where this brought down?

OC 98.1

Interesting in the context of the CC video reported here earlier.
KT
Joel

[Issue of "Insight" snipped in light of it already appearing in avodah.
-mi]
 

On Wed, 17 Jul 2002, Noah Witty wrote:
> Someone told me last night (or le-erev Tish'a Be-Av) that he refrains from
> eating milk/milk products ("milchilks" bela'az) together with fish.  This
> has nothing to do with the 9 days--just a separate minhag....

Here is something I wrote on this.
hope it helps.
comments are welcome.

The Beit Yosef (YD 87) and the Levush (YD 87:4) mention an additional 
prohibition of eating fish and dairy together because of danger, as 
stated, he says, in OC 173. The Darkei Moshe (by the Ramah; ibid s.k. 4) 
observes that he has never heard of such a custom, it is not found in 
Orach Chaim 173 [nor any where else it should logically be such as YD 
87:3; YD 95:1 or YD 116], and this must be a printers error that mixed up 
meat and milk (pun intended, I think), and it should have read fish and 
meat. The scribal error theory is also the opinion of the Shach (YD 87:5), 
who says he is supported by gemaras (such as Pesachim 76b) that indicate 
it is permitted, the Pri Chadash (YD 87:6), The Taz (YD 87:3), the Chida 
(Machzik Bracha 87:4), and the Prisha (YD 87:5 based on Chullin 111b).
	The permissibility of fish and milk even seems to be implied by 
the Shulchan Aruch himself (YD 87:3 and in the sentences in the Beit Yosef 
87 prior to this strange statement) and by the Rambam (Maachalot Asurot 
9:5). Most later authorities agree with the Ramah on this (see Magen 
Avraham introduction to OC 173). The Aruch Hashulchan (YD 87:15) questions 
why the Mechaber left it out of the Shulchan Aruch.
	However, some Sepharadim are cautious about this issue, even to 
the extent of washing between fish and milk, although most are lenient 
with butter. This difference is based on medical opinion the ruling 
authorities received. The Knesset Hagdola (YD Haga'ot to Beit Yosef 
87:19), Kaf Hachaim (87:24), and Ben Ish Chai (Ba'haloscha:15) all defend 
the current reading of the Mechaber based on contemporaneous medical 
advise that it is indeed dangerous to eat fish and milk. (The Chasam Sofer 
(1763-1839; shoot YD 101) "rules" that those doctors are in error.) There 
is also one source that preceded the Mechaber. Rabenu Bachya (commenting 
on Ex 23:19) comments that it is the opinion of doctors that fish and 
cheese cooked together produces a negative disposition and tzaraat. This 
source too is based on medical opinion of his time.
	Because of this Mechaber some Israeli kashrut certifiers will note 
if a product contains a mixture of fish and dairy to alert those Sephardim 
who want to be careful. Dr. Fred Rosner (Tradition, 35:2(Summer 2001), p. 
42 is in error when he writes "Very few people, if any, nowadays follow 
this recommendation." For a lengthy discussion of this topic see Yechave 
Daat 6:48 and Yalkut Yosef, Issur v'Heter, vol 3, pages 308-314. It should 
be noted that Rav Ovadia Yosef states that there are enough lenient 
opinions for one to rely on post facto if they were cooked together. See 
also Mayim Chayim (of Rav Chaim David Halevi, vol. 3 [5758] siman 24) on 
how to relate to medical opinion and "changing nature" in regard to this 
halacha, and Torah Lodaas 8:333-336 for a summary of this topic.

On Sat, 20 Jul 2002 Joelirich@aol.com wrote:
> I remember learning that one should not hug or kiss a child while in a shul.  
> Does anyone know where this brought down?

The Ramah (OC 98:1) writes that it is prohibited to kiss one's young
children in shul so as to establish in one's heart that one's strongest
love (especially in shul) should be reserved for God. He is quoting
Shoot Binyamin Zeev (163) who quotes the Sefer ha-Agudah in the name of
the Kolbo. This is also found in the Sefer Chasidim (254).Rav Ovadia
Yosef (Yechave Da'at 4:12) extends this to kissing anyone else, such
as the oleh after he finishes his aliyah. The only exception he makes
is to kiss the hand of someone that you are required to honor such as
the hand of a rav or father. See also Ben Ish Chai (Vayikra:11) not to
kiss other relatives or an employer in shul. Rav Ovadia Yosef advocates
abolishing in Israel the Moroccan custom of kissing the person who
received an aliyah. Rav Shalom Messas in Shut Shemesh u'Magen defends
the custom and argues that the Ramah emphasized "one's small children"
because it is specifically for them that one feels a deep affection and
therefore they should not be kissed in shul.

********************


[ Distributed to the Avodah mailing list, digested version.                   ]
[ To post: mail to avodah@aishdas.org                                         ]
[ For back issues: mail "get avodah-digest vXX.nYYY" to majordomo@aishdas.org ]
[ or, the archive can be found at http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/              ]
[ For general requests: mail the word "help" to majordomo@aishdas.org         ]