Avodah Mailing List

Volume 10 : Number 007

Tuesday, September 17 2002

• Re: avinu malkenu and selichot
• RE: Sundry Tefillah Items
• RE: Sundry Tefillah Items
• RE: Pants, Mosquitos, and the West Nile Virus
• Re: Kahal v'Chazan, or Chazan v'Kahal? (was: avinu malkenu and selichot)
• Re: avinu malkenu and selichot
• Re: avinu malkenu and selichot,LeDovid Hashem Ori
• Re: More on selihot-from Areivim
• Re: Sundry Tefillah Items
• Re: Sundry Tefillah Items
• Re: Havdalah on Orange Juice
• Re: Afar va'eifer

In Avodah V10 #5, Eli Turkel posted:
> 1. ....I note that in the artscroll machzor this is frequently changed
> from the usual printing e.g l_kel Orech Din, Kol Maamimin,

 From the ArtScroll nusach-Ashk'naz machzor one can just as easily
demonstrate what the nusach *isn't*. In this particular case, however,
many shuls tend to have a give-and-take between Chazzan and Kahal which
has the latter reading not only their part but also the former's next
part -- why that is, I don't know, but I do know that it isn't done
nearly as much in KAJ of Washington Heights, NY and I do know that the
Roedelheim-print machzor (and, I believe, others as well) doesn't change
the printing to accomodate such a practice.

> 2. In all siddurim I have seen Avinu Malkenu is listed after nefilat
> apayim but all shuls I know say it immediately after shemonei esre and
> before tachanun

Saider "Avinu Malkainu" is part of the davening for the Yomim Nora-im --
it happens to also be said during the intermediate days. NB that minhag
Frankfurt does *not* say it outside that 10-day period.

> 3. Why are some parts of avinu malkenu said out loud (edot mizrach
> don't say anything out loud).

In KAJ, *every* verse except the last is said first by the Chazzan and
then by the Kahal.

All the best from
-- Michael Poppers via RIM pager

[RYGB:]
:> Check Vayevarech David! That is where the sefiros are explicit in Tanach. 
:> It is not a new system! It is as old as the seven days of Creation.

[MF:]
>: The fact that vayevarech david mentions these words does 
>: not mean that they were used in a sephirotic way.

[RMB:]
> To repeat part of RAF's original post where the question was raised:
>> Then again, may be I am wrong. Do you know of other instances where
>> ancient tefillot may allude to the Sephirotic cosmogony? 
> (reading into a tefillah such references, even though they are not 
> mu'hrakh, is ok,
<snip>
> So, the applicability of the peirush has been shown.

> As to whether it David haMelekh's kavanah or not... It was written
> beru'ach haqodesh. He Who inspired the text knew the sephiros model
> of creation at the time it was written.

First, I was taking exception to RYGB's statement: "It is not a new
system! It is as old as the seven days of Creation." That goes far
beyond RAF's original post dealing with "reading into...even though...not
mu'hrakh." My point is that those who criticize the claim that kabbalah
is ancient would say that there is no indication of the sephirotic system
in the tefillos, despite the existence of vayevarech david.

Secondly, considering that vayevarech david does not have all 7 sephirotic
terms and mixes in gedulah, even if the ba'alei hasiddur were mekuballim,
there is no indication that they intended tefillos to involve allusions to
sephirot. In fact, the Ashkenazic siddur has a mishmash of Sephirotic and
non-Sephirotic terms in Yishtabach, and one would think the mechabrei
hasiddur would have chosen to use the Sephirotic terms in order in
that prayer.

Thirdly, let's assume that Hashem caused vayevarech david to allude to the
Sephirot, regardless of David HaMelech's personal intent. The mechabrei
hasiddur merely quoted vayevarech david, lock stock & barrel. RAF,
I would think, would want examples where the mechabrei hasiddur, when
they used their owns words (e.g., baruch she'amar, yishtabach, yotzer or,
shemoneh esrei), chose to allude to Sephirotic elements.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

At 01:22 PM 9/13/02 -0400, Feldman, Mark wrote:
>First, I was taking exception to RYGB's statement: "It is not a new system!
>It is as old as the seven days of Creation."  That goes far beyond RAF's
>original post ...

>Secondly, considering that vayevarech david does not have all 7 sephirotic
>terms and mixes in gedulah...

>Thirdly, let's assume that Hashem caused vayevarech david to allude to the
>Sephirot, regardless of David HaMelech's personal intent...

1. Gedulah equals chesed. This is very well known,

2. I do not understand how one understands the first beracha of Shemoneh 
Esrei without at least a rudimentary knowledge of the 
gedulah-gevurah-norah/chesed-gevurah-tiferes triad.

Kol Tuv, Gemar Chasimah Tovah,
YGB
ygb@aishdas.org      http://www.aishdas.org/rygb

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                     Life is complex.
micha@aishdas.org                    Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org                   The Torah is complex.
Fax: (413) 403-9905                                    - R' Binyamin Hecht

From: Harry Maryles
>>         Then we got to a rumored pesak from Rav Moshe, which has
>> been, I believe, effectively scotched.

> No it wasn't effectively scotched. It has been put on hold.

> Since my last post on the subject I have received further corroboration
> from one of my close personal friends who has impeccable RW credentials
> that indeed it was RMF who had such a Shittah....

212-962-9296 or 212-962-8278.

Until then, it is indeed scotched. Whatever the heck that means.

Stuart Klagsbrun
Credit Manager
AGT seven

Thanks for an excellent post, any idea why the 2 approaches developed in the 
1st place?

GCT
Joel Rich

In a message dated 9/12/2002 1:21:33pm EDT, turkel@math.tau.ac.il writes:
> 2. In all siddurim I have seen Avinu Malkenu is listed after nefilat
> apayim but all shuls I know say it immediately after shemonei esre and
> before tachanun

AIUI this is Ashkenaz vs. Sepharad

> 3. Why are some parts of avinu malkenu said out loud (edot mizrach don't
> say anything out loud).

FWIW:
German Khillos say EVERY line out loud
"Polish" kehilllos only the middle lines

Shanah Tovah
Richard Wolpoe
RabbiRichWolpoe@aol.com

On 13 Sep 2002 at 14:18, Gershon Dubin wrote:
> Derech agav, Rav Dovid Cohen told me that if you miss saying tachanun
> at the appropriate point, there are no tashlumin, i.e. only directly
> after chazaras hashatz.

Do I understand correctly that if for some reason I finish Shmoneh 
Esrei after the Tzibur has finished Tachnun, I'm supposed to skip 
Tachnun? 

-- Carl

From: "Ira L. Jacobson" <laser@ieee.org>
>> Just for interest, how many of us said 13 middot yesterday
>> (Thursday) and how many today (Friday)? Why the difference in
>> minhag?

On 13 Sep 2002 at 14:55, Gershon Dubin wrote:
> Yeshiva Rabbi Chaim Berlin said them Thursday. I believe it's to put
> 13 midos on Monday/Thursday, the yemei harachamim.

Every minyan I have ever davened in Yerushalayim has said them on a 
Monday or a Thursday (this year Thursday). 

-- Carl

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

On Friday 13 September 2002 13:22, Feldman, Mark wrote:
> Thirdly, let's assume that Hashem caused vayevarech david to allude to the
> Sephirot, regardless of David HaMelech's personal intent.  The mechabrei
> hasiddur merely quoted vayevarech david, lock stock & barrel.  RAF, I would
> think, would want examples where the mechabrei hasiddur, when they used
> their owns words (e.g., baruch she'amar, yishtabach, yotzer or, shemoneh
> esrei), chose to allude to Sephirotic elements.

RMF, thanks for reading my mind (I thought it was obvious to all,
but...) This is exactly what I am looking for, as my reaction was to
RYGB reading Sephirot in sim shalom.

Git Shabbes,
Arie Folger

Re:  RYGB wrote:
> 3. In Sim Shalom, the list of seven qualities - Toras Chaim etc. -
> represents the lower seven sefiros>>

And what would a Sefaradic kabbalist say about this. They do not say
Toras chaim etc. The Sefaradic siddur has instead: Torah v'hayyim,
ahavah vachesed and does not repeat chayyim again later in the list.

So they have eight qualities. What sefirot do they represent?

And, as to old nuschaot not pre-Sefer-Yetzira, Sa'adya Gaon and R'
Shlomo ben Natan happen to be within arm's length of the computer at
the moment. They both have six qualties (but not the same six).

GCh"T,
David

Is anyone aware of a source that orange juice may be used for havdalah?
(I had been told that Rav Moshe ztl so held but I have not seen it
in writing).

A few weeks ago there were a few postings on 'afar va'efer. I like to
make a belated comment

R' [Micha Berger -mi] wrote: <<Afar has no value. However, potters
can make things out of it and give it value.
Eifer has no value. However, it is often the remains of something that
once had value.>>

[RGD, who RDB attributed my words to, chimed in to note that it was
vort from the Beis haLevi. -mi]

Unless one translates efer as something other than ashes, the
statement that it has no value is not true. Not far from my home,
one can see truckload after truckload of ashes being taken out of the
coal-burning power station on the coast near Hadera. It is sold to cement
manufacturers, road pavers and building blocks. Ashes have value. Don't
they still use cinder blocks in the US. Cinders are ashes are efer.

G'mar hatima tova,
David

********************


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