Avodah Mailing List

Volume 10 : Number 008

Wednesday, September 18 2002

• Re: avinu malkenu and selichot,LeDovid Hashem Ori
• avinu malkenu and selichot
• Tziruf for a zimun
• Re: Tziruf for a zimun
• Birkas Kohanim
• Re: Tziruf for a zimun
• Chol Hamoed
• My Kabboloh for YK: Six Temidi'os
• Today's RAEK PDF's
• [Areivim] Esrog mehudar
• re: etrog this year
• Afar va'eifer
• RE: Tziruf for a zimun
• RE: avinu malkenu and selichot,LeDovid Hashem Ori
• Bowing during the Avodas Yom Kippur
• Re: Bowing during the Avodas Yom Kippur
• Re: Kahal v'Chazan, or Chazan v'Kahal? (was: avinu malkenu and selicho t)
• Yizkor and Chasam Sofer
• Re: Sundry Tefillah Items
• RE: Sundry Tefillah Items
• Re: Kahal v'Chazan, or Chazan v'Kahal? (was: avinu malkenu and selichot)
• Re: Kahal v'Chazan, or Chazan v'Kahal? (was: avinu malkenu and selicho t)
• RE: avinu malkenu and selichot,LeDovid Hashem Ori
• Re: Bowing during the Avodas Yom Kippur

On Sun, 15 Sep 2002 02:48:46 +0300 "Carl Sherer" <sherer@actcom.co.il> writes:
<< Do I understand correctly that if for some reason I finish Shmoneh
Esrei after the Tzibur has finished Tachnun, I'm supposed to skip
Tachnun? >>

You can say tachanun and daven in order.  If you SKIP tachanun,
you don't go back.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

From: Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il>
> 2. In all siddurim I have seen Avinu Malkenu is listed after nefilat
> apayim but all shuls I know say it immediately after shemonei esre and
> before tachanun

Our Nussach Sfard minyonim say NA first then AM. On Mondays and Thursdays
it's NA, AM and the Vehu Rachum...

> 3. Why are some parts of avinu malkenu said out loud (edot mizrach don't
> say anything out loud).

On RH and YK (when we only have one minyan - Nusach Ashkenaz),
the entire AM is said out aloud - posuk beposuk...I think this is 
an Oberlender minhag - though I hear That it is also done so in Satmar.

SBA

From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
> The pesak of the Shulchan Aruch is that preferably one should eat pas
> in order to be part of a zimun. The implication of the lashon of the
> Sh"A is that the minhag is to be metzaref those who've eaten even yerek.

> Our minhag, AIUI, is to be metzaref only people who eat mezonos.
> Should our minhag take preference over the minhag mentioned in Sh"A or
> are we noheg a minhag beta'us?

The KSA [45:10] brings those 3 shittos but also another - that it is
enough to to drink a revi'is of any mashke - besides water ..."v'chein
nohagin...".

SBA

From: "Gershon Dubin" <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
> To your knowledge, is this the minhag?  I've seen people be "makpid" on
> mezonos, and I question whether a minhag in Sh"A can make another "minhag"
> a minhag ta'us.

I have also seen people makpid on mezonos - but when the KSA was
pointed out to them, they relented - as they had been ignorant of this
shitta.

SBA

Does anyone have a source for this one? 

The (almost universal) minhag (among Ashkenazim) in Eretz Yisrael is 
to say Elokeinu v'Elokei Avosainu in Mincha and to duchen during 
N'eila (which means a mad rush to finish Chazoras HaShatz before 
Shkiya, but that's another story). Yesterday, the Shliach Tzibur for 
Mincha skipped Elokeinu v'Elokei Avosainu. Afterwards, he told people 
that it's assur for a Kohain to say it. My reaction - and that of one 
of my much more learned fellow olim - was that they say it in Chutz 
La'Aretz all the time. 

Last night, I put my 17-year old to work researching mkoros, and he 
came up with something in R. Sperber's Minhagei Yisrael which says 
that NO ONE should say Elokeinu v'Elokei Avosainu in Eretz Yisrael (I 
assume there's an exception to that one when no Kohanim are present, 
since that is Ma'asim she'b'chol yom), but nothing that bars Kohanim 
only (or specifically) from saying it. IIRC the source given was a 
Mateh Efraim in Hilchos Yom Kippur (which I have not yet looked up). 

Comments? 

-- Carl
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il      mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

<<The KSA [45:10] brings those 3 shittos but also another - that it 
 is enough to to drink a revi'is of any mashke - besides water
..."v'chein nohagin...".>>

To your knowledge, is this the minhag? I've seen people be "makpid"
on mezonos, and I question whether a minhag in Sh"A can make another
"minhag" a minhag ta'us.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

Can you post to Areivim on chol hamoed?  Can you print out stuff on chol 
hamoed?

I have not in previous years typed on chol hamoed--when typing meant on a 
typewriter.  What's the story with computer-land?  (I don't think now that 
I'm hooked I can go cold turkey for a whole week.)

Toby

This may be of to'eles to some, and will certainly be of to'eles to me
if you remind me of it!

One of my correspondents, Reb F"B Silverman from Atlanta, mentioned to
me that the six mitzvos temidi'oscan form a box.

I actually arranged them as such, and into an appropriate "meditation"
upon entering a car to drive, and was mekkabel bl"n to contemplate them
whenever entering a car.

As such:

Front: Lo Sasuru acharei levavchem v'acharei eineichem - watch where
you're going and how you are watching!

Above: Emunah in Hashem

Right: Ahavas Hashem

Left: Yiras Hashem

(those three are, I think, fairly obvious).

Below: Yichud Hashem - to make Hashem Melech al kol *ha'aretz*

Back: Ein Od Me'lvado: The net result of contemplating the above five,
and the ramification left in their wake.

Anyone want to make an appropriate mnemonic device to hang on a rear-view
mirror? Might be an idea for someone like the CC Heritage Foundation!
Anyone have any connections there or somewhere similar? All rights
relinquished!

Aside from the PDF/website I sent out Erev Yom for the B"Ikvos Ha'Yirah, 
Reb Bennett Ruda has courteously put into PDF several of his poems and his 
essay on Mussar and Chassidus. The first URL below is the one I already 
sent out; the latter two are the ones just mentioned. Rather than clutter 
your mailboxes, I am just sending you the URL's; Reb Micha Berger will 
eventually provide a link from the Aishdas main page, and I am most 
grateful to him. You might also check out Reb Bennett's Musar website, 
Tzemach Dovid.

>     <http://www.aishdas.org/raek/yirah.pdf>
>     <http://www.aishdas.org/raek/shirim.pdf>
>     <http://www.aishdas.org/raek/2derachim.pdf>


Since some of you complained about the Hebrew (which, to my opinion, is one 
of the reasons the essay is so powerful!, but that's me), here is my 
partial English translation (sans footnotes, you will have to go to 
http://www.aishdas.org/rygb/raek.htm if you really want them!):

III. In the Footsteps of Yir'ah
         Reb Avrohom Elya left many moving and inspiring writings in the 
realm of Machashovo. Indeed, we have here just scratched the surface of the 
inspiration one can draw from his essays, diaries and poems. Yet, one 
masterpiece stands out from among the rest, and is the work by which he is 
best remembered: "B'Ikvos HaYir'ah" - "In the Footsteps of Fear." Rabbi 
Yechezkel Sarna wrote about this essay: "This essay could have been written 
by one of the fathers of Mussar. I regarded him with great esteem and honor 
- but I would not have expected this much. In the final analysis, he was 
yet young. True, he had learned and toiled mightily in Torah - and 
especially in the realm of Machashava and Mussar, but even all his toil 
cannot explain the great depth and profound thought which I found in 
B'Ikvos HaYir'ah. This is not an essay, rather a unique synopsis of 
immersion in profound thoughts and ideas..." (B'Ikvos HaYir'ah, p. 284).
         In a letter written to Reb Avrohom Elya (ibid., p. 281), Rabbi 
Sarna placed special emphasis on the style in which B'Ikvos HaYir'ah was 
written: "...strong and sweet, clear and deep, penetrating and captivating 
- robust and passionate, and that is why it makes a Mussar impression." The 
German philosopher J. G. Herder wrote that it was worthwhile to study 
Hebrew for ten years just to be able to read Psalm 104 ("Borchi Nafshi") in 
the original! It is difficult, if not impossible, to convey the full 
inspiration of the original in translation; it is to be hoped, however, 
that the following translation will allow the English reader to catch a 
glimpse, and perhaps even more than a glimpse, of the essay's power and pathos.

         ...But one who has not traversed the actual pathway of 
illumination [that of the prophets and the sages],he who stands opposite 
the rays of light, at some distance, possesses little understanding of this 
term [yir'ah]. It would be better had he never known this term, and was now 
learning it for the first time. But this is his problem: He knows it, but 
does not know it properly. He possesses a dangerous translation of the 
entire concept, and cannot avoid its negative ramifications.
         For example, when we mention yir'ah to this person he can only 
translate it thus: Bent head, wrinkled brow, glazed eyes, hunched back, 
trembling left hand, right hand clapping al cheit, knocking thighs, failing 
knees, stumbling heels.
         And he does not know that this translation is heretical for the 
one who knows what yir'ah is and what it means, the source from which it 
flows, and from whence it comes...
         There are times that demand tears and eulogies... It is necessary 
then to stoop like rushes and take up sackcloth and ashes. Times come upon 
the world when our sins require these. Such, however, is not Yir'as Hashem, 
not it and not even part of it. It is not yir'ah's essence, but only 
preparation for it...

         Yir'ah is not anguish, not pain, not bitter anxiety. To what may 
yir'ah be likened? To the tremor of fear which a father feels when his 
beloved young son rides his shoulders as he dances with him and rejoices 
before him, taking care that he not fall off. Here there is joy that is 
incomparable, pleasure that is incomparable. And the fear tied up with them 
is pleasant too. It does not impede the freedom of dance... It passes 
through them like a spinal column that straightens and strengthens. And it 
envelops them like a modest frame that lends grace and pleasantness...
         It is clear to the father that his son is riding securely upon him 
and will not fall back, for he constantly remembers him, not for a moment 
does he forget him. His son's every movement, even the smallest, he feels, 
and he ensures that his son will not sway from his place, nor incline 
sideways - his heart is, therefore, sure, and he dances and rejoices.
         If a person is sure that the "bundle" of his life's meaning is 
safely held high by the shoulders of his awareness, he knows that this 
bundle will not fall backwards, he will not forget it for a moment, he will 
remember it constantly, with yir'ah he will safe keep it. If every moment 
he checks it - then his heart is confident, and he dances and rejoices...

         When the Torah was given to Israel solemnity and joy came down 
bundled together. They are fused together and cannot be separated. That is 
the secret of "gil be're'ada" (joy in trembling) mentioned in Tehillim. 
Dance and judgment, song and law became partners with each other...
         Indeed, this is the balance... A rod of noble yir'ah passes 
through the rings of joy... [It is] the inner rod embedded deep in an 
individual's soul that connects end to end, it links complete joy in this 
world (eating, drinking and gift giving) to that which is beyond this world 
(remembering the [inevitable] day of death) to graft one upon the other so 
to produce eternal fruit.

         A Swedish wise man, when once discussing sanctity, said: "The 
sanctity of an individual proves that he who possesses it has a direct 
relationship with the  strongest source of existence." In my opinion, in 
the conception of Judaism this is a definition of yir'ah (but sanctity - 
kedusha - is loftier still, we have a different idea of it, but this is not 
the place to define it). What is yir'ah? It is the broad jump over the vast 
gap between myself and my Creator... It is a mitzvah to separate - to 
separate from smallness! Fly over barriers! And from there quest Him, for 
there you will find Him...

         Indeed, this is the direct relationship. Indeed, this is the true 
vision (vhtr) that we call yir'ah (vtrh).
""ogv utrhhu" - "ktrah trhu"
         And this, therefore, is the reason that we dwell so much on fear 
of sin ("yir'as ha'onesh"). This is also vision - seeing things as they 
really are... One who refuses to see his future shortchanges only himself. 
Only if he sees (vtrh) will he fear (trhh), and only if he fears will he 
repent.
"ogv utrhhu" - (the hand that punished) "shv ,t ktrah trhu"
         And from here we proceed to the fear [awe] of loftiness ("yir'as 
haromemus") - that is the vision [the perception] of loftiness. From here - 
"The maid servant at the Red Sea saw loftier visions than the Prophet 
Yechezkel."
         From here comes the direct view, across all the dividers, to the 
source of existence. This is an unceasing inner gaze toward the matter that 
is one's responsibility [the bundle of his life's meaning] (that he must 
safeguard lest it fall...). The gaze is one that leads to remembrance, 
remembrance that leads to care, care that leads to confidence, confidence 
that leads to strength ("oz") - an inner, bold, uplifting, strength 
("Hashem oz li'amo yiten") and a strength that leads to peace ("shalom") 
and wholeness, internally and externally, in thought and in deed ("Hashem 
yivareich es amo ba'shalom").
         Indeed, This is the wisdom of life: "Reishis chochma yir'as 
Hashem." A fear (vtrh) that is vision (vhtr).
("And remember") "o,rfzz" - ("And see") "o,htru"
"Shivisi Hashem l'negdi tamid..."

         Oh Hashem Elokim! Who would grant that we would for a moment 
forget this oppressing thought: That everything has happened before, 
thousands upon thousands of time. That the great ones have already spoken, 
and that the small ones have already closed their ears. That all was 
without benefit, without blessing... that nothing can fix distorted hearts, 
that there is no escape from twisted concepts. Who would grant that we 
would for a moment forget this!...
         In forgetting this smallness we would suddenly remember greatness. 
In destroying this despair we would suddenly renew souls. Evil would 
dissipate. Stupidity would dissipate. Surely a bridge would be built 
between man and his brother, a ladder would rise between Earth and Heaven.

         A moment... Yes, that is what I said: "That they would forget for 
a moment!" For greater is the glory of one short moment than vast stretches 
of time enwrapped in desolation. What a moment can achieve years cannot...
         Let us not wait [for this moment] till we come to shame... If it 
does not exist, let us create it...
         "If the tzaddikim desire, they can create worlds" - if they desire...
         It is told about the Gr"a zt"l that anyone who overheard him at 
the time of Kabbolas Shabbos saying: "Today, if you listen to His voice," 
would immediately become a Ba'al Teshuva.
         Today! This moment! Immediately - and eternally.
         But when will this moment come? When will it be sought? When will 
it be found? In every generation they ask this same question, and every 
generation answers with greater despair than its predecessors: "Who knows?"
         But one [truth] "I" know! This response can only suffice for all 
Mankind, or for Israel as a whole. For an individual, the specific person 
who sits and writes or reads these simple lines, can he respond any other 
way to the question "when?" than with the reply of Hillel: "If not now... 
when?"
         Now. Immediately. For now - and for all generations...

         And now, not pride ("ga'avo") is our downfall, but humility 
("anovo"). We have become humble without strength, our souls are like 
widows - deprived of confidence and security, without strength of mind 
("da'as"). This is not humility for the sake of Heaven; it is for the sake 
of inactivity that comes from despair, and for the sake of despair that 
comes from inactivity. We have become paupers happy with our lot in our 
[limited] spiritual property. The Lithuanian Jew is happy with the glory of 
his lomdus; the Polish Jew - with the majesty of his mysticism and 
lightning pilpul; the Hungarian Jew - with his Torah fervor and detailed 
grasp of Talmudic topics; the German Jew - with his meticulous mitzvah 
observance and secular acquisitions. The common denominator among us all is 
that we suffice with what we have, placidly and quietly, each of us in our 
own [portions], slumbering deeply... [nothing] contains enough spirit of 
life to arouse and encourage, to uplift and to lead...
         G-d said to our first forefather: "Do not fear Avrohom!" The Tanna 
d'bei Eliyahu says: "One only says `do not fear' to one who is truly 
fearful of Heaven..."
         He who has walked in the footsteps of fear until he has reached 
its truth will feel even now the great call to G-d: Do not fear! Do not 
weaken! Do not be poor in your own eyes and humble in the eyes of others, 
enrich yourself so you may fulfill yourself, and go among the people of 
this world. And like your forefather in the days of Nimrod who proclaimed 
the goodness of G-d, plant an oasis for those lost on the way, and pray for 
Sodom and Amora. And then when you come to the community of Israel, and you 
arise up on its stage - even if it must be a political, a partisan stage - 
you shall call out from upon that stage to the nation that it should renew 
its heart; that it should open its heart to Torah and fill its heart with 
the love and fear [of G-d] (yes, in such simple terms). Let these direct 
and clear words, devoid of metaphor and criticism, be heard from atop every 
high stage and penetrate every vigorous heart. To know, to inform, and to 
clarify (gsuvku ghsuvk gshk), that we have but one slogan: Yir'ah and good 
deeds...
         We certainly know that the only redemption for our spiritual and 
material national crisis is the robust return ("Teshuva") to the lofty 
yir'ah of Judaism - and are we permitted to be embarrassed by to those who 
mock us, and therefore refrain from diligent, constant public proclamation 
of this sole redemption? Who guarantees that the nation will not listen to 
us? If hundreds may not listen, perhaps tens might. Who seduces us to deny 
the possibility of a mighty society ("chavura") of refined Jews - and youth 
- who, truly and guilelessly, will begin to immerse themselves in the 
purification of hearts and deeds? Why not? It is indeed possible! If it is 
truly impossible, it is only for one reason: because we, the individuals 
who strive for this goal, deny its possibility. The nation is not yet 
barren - if there is barrenness it is in you, the individuals...

Kol Tuv,
YGB
ygb@aishdas.org      http://www.aishdas.org/rygb

Am I right in thinking that there's less of an inyan of hiddur for esrogim
when the first day of Succos falls on Shabbos (so there's no day that's
d'oraisa)? Can anyone supply any sources?

Kol tuv,
Moshe

The old "Arbaat Haminim" (Weissfish) lists borrowed (shaul) and "missing"
(chaser) as the two p'sulim that apply only on the first day. Shaul
is because "lachem" is only on the first day. Chaser is taught from
u'lekachtem - lekicha tama. Chaser includes a few things (nisdak,
nital u'ktzo and a few others). He also brings a machloket regarding
the p'sulim of "hadar" on all days besides the first.

[Email #2. -mi]

I realized that I should have sent the source from the Mishna Brura:
siman 649 note 35. The Mishna Brura quotes the source in the rishonim.

Tzvi Harris
Talmon, Israel
tzvi@halachayomit.com
www.halachayomit.com

From: D & E-H Bannett <dbnet@zahav.net.il>
> Ashes have value. Don't they still use cinder blocks in the US. Cinders
> are ashes are efer.

Did they have any use in the time of Avraham Avinu? How about in the
time of the Beis Halevi?

More seriously, kol hanisrafim afram mutar. This indicates that somebody
sometime might have had a use for them, or their status of issur hana'ah
is irrelevant. But they're not something which has an important use
(other than filler for cinder blocks and the like) such as afar does
(to grow things).

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

From: Gershon Dubin
>> The KSA [45:10] brings those 3 shittos but also another - that it
>> is enough to to drink a revi'is of any mashke - besides water
>> ..."v'chein nohagin...".

> To your knowledge, is this the minhag? I've seen people be "makpid"
> on mezonos, and I question whether a minhag in Sh"A can make another
> "minhag" a minhag ta'us.

Interesting note (I hope): Over YT I found that the Chazon Ish held that a
borai nephashos on water is a reshus and he didn't hold it was necessarily
good to exercise that reshus.

Kt
sk

Stuart Klagsbrun
Credit Manager
AGT seven

On Sun, 15 Sep 2002 02:48:46 +0300 "Carl Sherer" <sherer@actcom.co.il>
writes:
>> Do I understand correctly that if for some reason I finish Shmoneh
>> Esrei after the Tzibur has finished Tachnun, I'm supposed to skip
>> Tachnun?

From: gershon.dubin@juno.com
> You can say tachanun and daven in order.  If you SKIP tachanun,
> you don't go back.

One other note of (possible) interest: The CI held having siddurim in
the house was sufficient for nephilas kapayim.

This year I davened in the Yeshiva where I live and I saw something that
I have never seen anywhere else.

When it came time to bow down by the Avodas Yom Kippur, first everyone
did it and then the Chazzan did it separately. Everywhere else I have
davened the chazzan and tzibbur did it at the same time.

I happened to have a sefer that goes thru the Avodah and I looked to
see whatthis sefer said about this minhag. Interestingly, this sefer
brought down poskim b'arichus (if I remember corectly I think it was
the Matteh Efraim) that vehemently attacked this minhag. One of the
arguements againstthis minhag was that it makes the chazzan appear to
be a kofer since he isn't bowing along with everyone else when the shem
kameforush is "mentioned".

Has anyone else seen such a minhag?

On Tue, Sep 17, 2002 at 02:24:42PM -0400, Markowitz, Chaim wrote:
: When it came time to bow down by the Avodas Yom Kippur, first everyone
: did it and then the Chazzan did it separately. Everywhere else I have
: davened the chazzan and tzibbur did it at the same time.

The Gra would not have the chazzan be mishtachaveh at all. The chazan
is in the middle of Amidah, how can he leave the standing position?

-mi

R' Joel Rich writes <<< any idea why the 2 approaches developed in the
1st place? >>>

To review, the two styles were (1) where the chazan and kahal say the
exact same thing, one after the other (many shuls Kel Adon this way year
round, many parts of the RH and YK machzor too, most notably the climax
of Neilah) and (2) where the chazan says something to which the kahal
has a distinct response (Melech Elyon, Lecha Dodi, V'Chol Maaminim,
and most notably "Ki L'Olam Chasdo" in Hallel, all started out that way).

Offline, Rav Elazar Teitz pointed out to me a third approach as well,
that being to take a single work of poetry, and for the chazan and kahal
to alternate stanzas or verses. This is often done with Tehillim (I've
seen German shuls say Kabalas Shabbos this way) and just about everyone I
know says An'im Z'miros in this pattern. I have no idea how this practice
got started, but he tells me that his father (Rav Pinchas M. Teitz, zt"l)
used to say the alternate paragraphs silently, together with the chazan,
so as not to omit any of it.

Akiva Miller

A Rabbi at my shul got up before Yizkor and stated that the CHASAM
SOFER says that we also say Yizkor for that "part of our own neshama
that already lived and is no longer in our guf".... Reference inside
please? or original source?

Chaim
hgschild@hotmail.com

On Wed, Sep 11, 2002 at 10:31:58PM -0400, Gershon Dubin wrote:
: Rav Yisrael Reisman spoke about this at the Labor Day yom iyun.
...
: He thereby answered some strange leshonos in davening, such as asking
: HKB"H to shut the mouth of the prosecutor. Imagine trying that in court?
: But when the Melech takes your teshuva and other factors into
: consideration, it's not unreasonable to ask.

Contrast the begining of the berachah "ufischon peh lamyachalim lach"
with the quote in question "ve'olasah tikpatz pihah".

-mi

In Avodah V10 #7, RYGBechhofer wrote:
> 1. Gedulah equals chesed. This is very well known.  2. I do not
> understand how one understands the first beracha of Shemoneh
> Esrei without at least a rudimentary knowledge of the
> gedulah-gevurah-norah/chesed-gevurah-tiferes triad.

Why does "t'hilah" interpose in this triad within "Yishtabach"?

All the best from
 -- Michael Poppers via RIM pager

On Fri, Sep 13, 2002 at 04:54:48PM +0000, kennethgmiller@juno.com wrote:
: I once saw a one-volume sefer from Rav Yosef Eliyahu Henkin, entitled
: "Sefer HaYovel" or something like that....
: IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY, it was a very clear description of the
: development of this sort of stuff. He divides these tefilos into two
: categories. In one, the chazan and kahal say the exact same things, and
: always have done so, and that is the "chazan v'kahal" system, where the
: chazan leads and sets the mood, and the people repeat what he said. I
: think he gave "Kel Adon" as an example of this.

Was Kel Adon originally responsive? I thought it was originally sung
in unison, and that the current division was a later innovation.

-mi

In a message dated 9/17/2002 5:12:07pm EDT, kennethgmiller@juno.com writes:
> To review, the two styles were (1) where the chazan and kahal say the
> exact same thing, one after the other ...
>            and (2) where the chazan says something to which the kahal
> has a distinct response (Melech Elyon, Lecha Dodi, V'Chol Maaminim,
> and most notably "Ki L'Olam Chasdo" in Hallel, all started out that way).

> Offline, Rav Elazar Teitz pointed out to me a third approach as well,
> that being to take a single work of poetry, and for the chazan and kahal
> to alternate stanzas or verses....       I have no idea how this practice
> got started, but he tells me that his father (Rav Pinchas M. Teitz, zt"l)
> used to say the alternate paragraphs silently, together with the chazan,
> so as not to omit any of it.

What changed was the proliferation of printed siddurim/ machzorim which
pushed everyone to say everything.

In the "old days" {good old days?} the Chazzan had a greater
responsibility and the Kahal often participated with a fixed response
or an alternating response {e.g. Shir Hakavod}

FWIW ,many piyyutim on Yom Kippur are rectied responsively in our
congregation. I find this "load balancing" to be a very effective
technique for keeping both Chazzan and khal focused, especially when
set to a familiar melody

Shanah Tovah
Richard Wolpoe
RabbiRichWolpoe@aol.com

On 17 Sep 2002 at 14:14, Stuart Klagsbrun wrote:

> One other note of (possible) interest: The CI held having siddurim in
> the house was sufficient for nephilas kapayim.

In Yerushalayim you don't even need that. 

-- Carl

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

See pictures of Israel. Point your browser to:

http://www.members.home.net/projectonesoul/israel/israel.htm
http://www.bereshitsoftware.com/kdoshim/index.htm

In a message dated 9/17/2002 5:11:38pm EDT, cmarkowitz@scor.com writes:
> This year I davened in the Yeshiva where I live and I saw something that
> I have never seen anywhere else.
> When it came time to bow down by the Avodas Yom Kippur, first everyone
> did it and then the Chazzan did it separately. Everywhere else I have
> davened the chazzan and tzibbur did it at the same time.

FWIW:
The German custom is for the entire Khal to say the paragraph "v'hakohaim 
v'ha'am" including kor'im and it is repeated by the Chazzan afterwards

Shanah Tovah
Richard Wolpoe
RabbiRichWolpoe@aol.com

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