Avodah Mailing List

Volume 10 : Number 122

Monday, March 10 2003

• Re: Avodah V10 #121
• Re: Toras Purim 5763, part 2: Megilla and Eydus
• Re: Toras Purim 5763, part 2: Megilla and Eydus
• kriyas hatorah
• Re: kriyas hatorah
• shalach manos
• Bichas hatorah - mah tovu
• Re: Mah Tovu
• Re: mamzer
• Tsvai dinim in krias hatorah
• shalach manos
• Re: kriyas hatorah - Megillah as pirsuemi Nissa
• Re: Bichas hatorah - mah tovu
• Simchas Meei'im (was: Mah Tovu)
• Re: Toras Purim 5763, part 2: Megilla and Eydus
• mamzer
• Repeating Psukei D'zimra
• Re: mamzer
• Re: Toras Purim 5763, part 2: Megilla and Eydus

> Don't Tell. The Mishne Berurah (Orach Chayim 229, seif katan 1) writes
> that if one sees a rainbow, he should not relate it to others, because the
> rainbow is a sign that Hashem is upset with the world and is withholding
> His wrath because of the covenant He made at the time of Noach. Thus one
> who relates this information is speaking badly of the world and violates
> the principles of "Motzei Dibah Hu K'sil".

Not everyone agrees with this.

Toby Katz

At 12:10 AM 3/6/03 +0000, Micha Berger wrote:
>I suggested that "kafah aleihem hahar kegigis" was the neis nigleh and
>onesh nigleh of bayis rishon. The gigis was not removed from overhead
>until the period of hester panim.

When I attempt (largely unsuccessfully) to pique my kids' interest in
history I tell them HKB"H created the world in order to create history
- to see Ratzon Hashem implicit in events and occurrences. This is the
yesod of Purim that "ZICHRAM lo yasuf me'zar'am."

Along these lines: Haman would have long been forgotten if not for Purim.
Timcheh es zecher Amalek obviously does not mean eradicvating his memory.

Now that I have your attention, the Lomdishe Halacha Shiur this Sunday
will be at a new starting time, 9:00 pm. Topic is microwave ovens. Next
week Thursday night mishmar topic is the machlokes Rambam and Ramban on
the reason for korbonos (Vayikra 1:9).

Kol Tuv,
YGB
ygb@aishdas.org  or  ygb@yerusalmionline.org
essays, tapes and seforim at: www.aishdas.org;
on-line Yerushalmi shiurim at www.yerushalmionline.org

On Fri, Mar 07, 2003 at 08:47:20AM -0500, Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer wrote:
: When I attempt (largely unsuccessfully) to pique my kids' interest in
: history I tell them HKB"H created the world in order to create history
: - to see Ratzon Hashem implicit in events and occurrences. This is the
: yesod of Purim that "ZICHRAM lo yasuf me'zar'am."

: Along these lines: Haman would have long been forgotten if not for Purim.
: Timcheh es zecher Amalek obviously does not mean eradicvating his memory.

The basic oxymoron: the pasuq starts "timcheh" and ends "lo tishkakh".

(It's like the old kids' line: "I'll give you $5 if you're not thinking
about pink elephants 5 seconds from now." How do you eliminate a thought
without thinking about that very thing as part of your effort?)

This is the Gra's chiluq between "zecher" and "zeicher" -- not
that his talmidim agree about which he said meant which. According
to RCVilozhiner's version, "zeicher" means "a reminder / memorial",
"zecher" means "memory". (An LODayan and LOR, R' Jack Love, believes that
this mapping of meaning to niqud is more mistaveir. Rounder vowels tend
to take the more active, causative meaning. E.g. binyan qal vs pi'el.
Not a ra'ayah, but it shows some level of tendency.)

The pasuq in parashas Zachor is "Erase all memorials for Amaleiq",
whereas the one in Ashrei is "The memory of all Your Good..."

As I've posted in the past and confirmed with RSM, RYBS repeated the
"zayin" line of Ashrei just as we do for Zachor.

"Zichram lo yasuf mizar'am" isn't going on the commeorative acts,
the memorials. It goes on the memory itself!

:-)BB!!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 It isn't what you have, or who you are, or where
micha@aishdas.org            you are,  or what you are doing,  that makes you
http://www.aishdas.org       happy or unhappy. It's what you think about.
Fax: (413) 403-9905                            - Dale Carnegie

>>>I'm confused. There's a din of qeri'as megillah that is NOT
pirsumei nisah? I thought that megillah was a matbei'ah for qiyum of
the de'oraisah of lefarseim. Can someone please bring a maqor for this
tzvei dinim?<<<

If you hold there is a din of keriya b'yachid, obviously no pirsumei
nisa is involved. See the Ba'al HaMaor.

Where is the *d'oraysa* to be mefarsem? There may be a d'oraysa to
commemorate nissim (I think Shut Chasam Sofer has that idea), but I
don't recall pirsumei nisa.

>>>In other words, pores al shma is chiuv of t'fila of an yachid in
the tsibur and so is parshas zakhor. It is not quite the same as having
to call a minyan together to hear it once again in a setting where the
Torah had already been read.<<<

I don't buy your distinction - R' Eliezer had only 9 people.  Making the
effort to free the eved is the same (actually worse because of lo techanaim)
as making the effort to gather a few extra people to create a tzibbur.

Also, in Rashi's case the tzibbur was already yotzi their mitza; they still
count as a tzibbur for the sake of the yachid who wants to be poreis al
shema (if it is a chovas hayachid you do not need a taibbur of people who
are bar chiyuva - you need the metziyus of tzibbur, but the chiyuv is yours
alone).  

In Moadim u'Zmanin I saw R' Shternbruch also makes the chilluk between
parshas zachor (chovas hayachid) and keriyas hatorah for the rest of the
year (chovas hatzibbur), but he does not use this rosh as a ra'aya and
interestingly, he makes no mention of the ramban.

-Chaim

On Fri, Mar 07, 2003 at 09:36:48AM -0500, Brown, Charles.F wrote:
: >>>I'm confused. There's a din of qeri'as megillah that is NOT
: pirsumei nisah? I thought that megillah was a matbei'ah for qiyum of
: the de'oraisah of lefarseim. Can someone please bring a maqor for this
: tzvei dinim?<<<

: If you hold there is a din of keriya b'yachid, obviously no pirsumei
: nisa is involved. See the Ba'al HaMaor.

I'll see the BhM. However, I don't think it's "obvious". Asheknazi
treatment of neir Chanukah when one is alone seems to assume that there
is a qiyum pirsumei nisah in reminding *oneself* of the neis. Which is
why we say "she'asah nissim". (Sepharadim would light without a berakhah.)

: Where is the *d'oraysa* to be mefarsem? There may be a d'oraysa to
: commemorate nissim (I think Shut Chasam Sofer has that idea), but I
: don't recall pirsumei nisa.

(I assume you're referring to CS's position that Purim Qatan is the
de'Oraisa qiyum of commemorating the neis, wheras Purim on Adar B is a
qiyum of the dinim derabbanan.)

Perhaps I'm mistaken. I took it as a given but I have no idea where I got
that impression from.

:-)BB!!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 It isn't what you have, or who you are, or where
micha@aishdas.org            you are,  or what you are doing,  that makes you
http://www.aishdas.org       happy or unhappy. It's what you think about.
Fax: (413) 403-9905                            - Dale Carnegie

> On 3 Mar 2003 at 20:14, S Goldstein wrote:
>>> The item in question is this. I was told that the mishloah manot
>>> must consist of at least two different berakhot!

>>> What is the source for this????
 
>> Since it is so common, though not codified, maybe it is based on
>> shitas/girsas Rashi Megilla 7a Rabbi Yehuda Nesia sent Rabbi Oshiya
>> meat AND wine to fulfill the mitzva of mishloach manos.

The SA says "two kinds of food", but nothing about two brachot. The Baer
Heitev cites an opinion that if one sends fish & eggs, it's in doubt
whether one has fulfilled the obligation - which seems to imply a
necessity, or at least a preference, of two brachot.
 
From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@fandz.com>
> I don't have a makor but I know that there is a shita that says that the
> whole idea of Mishloach Manos is to send someone a MEAL that they can
> eat on Purim. That would presumably include foods which have more than
> one bracha. I was discussing this with a couple of chaverim last night
> (one who is subscribed to this list and one who is not) but they didn't
> know a makor either.

That's another memra on 7b - Abaye bar Avin & R' Chanina bar Avin exchanged
their purim feasts with one another.  Rashi says that one year they ate chez
A, and the other year they ate chez B, but Rambam (Hil. Meg. 2:15) holds that
this means they exchanged enough for a meal qua shalech moness.  The SA OH
695:4 holds that this is fine, if they don't have enough food for both MM
and the seudah. 
 
> My old chavrusa in Passaic used to bring me a full meal every year in
> the middle of the Purim Seudah. If any of the Passaic people know who
> that is (or want to drop me a note so that I will tell you), maybe you
> can ask him if he has a makor.

It's certainly OK, but as a preference?

>> ...which brings a different question to mind: can one say "Mah Tovu"
>> (or, to consider another example, "boruch ata b'vo-echa..." when passing
>> by the entrance/exit of one's home or someone else's home) before saying
>> the b'rachos of "la'asok" through "asher bochar bonu"?...

> That said, how many people say "Torah tzivah lanu Moshe..." before
> those berakhos? Does the fact that there is a 2nd chiyuv, a matbei'ah
> tefillah -- which is therefore derabbanan -- not make it also a qiyum
> of limud TSBK?

That is the 2 deyos in S"A 46:9, see M"B there. Issue comes up for saying
selichos before birchas hatorah.  Ain hachi nami, maybe saying pesukim as
tefillah is not the same cognitive process that we call t"t.

-Chaim

In Avodah V10 #121, MBerger replied:
> Given chazal's peshat on the pasuq, as quoted by Rashi, why does the
> pasuq need a BhM me'at? After all, the tzeni'us of how the "common"
> home was aligned is also included in the praise of "tovu"!

We can say the posuk at any time; the Q was whether we should say it
while entering a bais ovail. According to your logic, we should say
this posuk when we enter any bayis ne'eman, not just a bayis in which
a minyan will gather for purposes of t'filah.

RWolpoe wrote:
> I'm not sure if singing Mah Tovu Acappella with a choir is a problem,
> but it's worth looking into.

I'm thinking that your coming together with rayim (in this case, to form a
choir) is something you can't do until next year, but I'm not your Rav (or
your posaik, or your moreh horo-oh, or your... :-)).

All the best (including wishes for a wonderful Shabbos "DaD") from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ

Eli Turkel wrote:
: Does this mean that a childless couple should not use IVF because 
: RSYE prohibits it even though most poskim do allow it?

RMB wrote:
> No, what it means is: I have no idea what to do. Best we can do

> A side issue about your example: I wonder how many actually would consider
> the child of IVF to be a mamzer. AFAIK, this is the shitah of the Satmar
> Rav zt"l -- a noted poseiq, but a da'as yachid. The question I raised was
> that of getting a pesaq that in effect is binding to all Jews, not just
> the sho'eil. That's true of the status of the child and his descendents,
> not of the issur veheter of IVF itself.

Please, please make it clear that you are talking about IVF using DONOR
SPERM (and the same question would apply to artificial insemination using
donor sperm, an older and simpler procedure). There is NO QUESTION AT ALL
ACC TO ANYBODY about the kashrus of IVF children produced with HUSBAND
SPERM and WIFE EGGS.

(Although some may not approve of the procedure bec of hotza'as zera
levatala, or bec of chabalah to the mother, as it involves minor surgery.
But NO ONE questions the kashrus of the children produced this way,
ex post facto)

Toby Katz

> I'm confused. There's a din of qeri'as megillah that is NOT pirsumei
> nisah? I thought that megillah was a matbei'ah for qiyum of the
> de'oraisah of lefarseim.

> Can someone please bring a maqor for this tzvei dinim?

I don't have the sefer here but I recall that the Ramban on 17 uses it
to explain why you can be yotse with lashon hakodesh or loez. With loez
you fulfill pirsumei nisa but, even those who don't understand lashon
hakodesh can fulfill the chiuv kria in lashon hakodesh.

M. Levin

>> Since it is so common, though not codified, maybe it is based on
>> shitas/girsas Rashi Megilla 7a Rabbi Yehuda Nesia sent Rabbi Oshiya
>> meat AND wine to fulfill the mitzva of mishloach manos...

> I don't have a makor but I know that there is a shita that says that
> the whole idea of Mishloach Manos is to send someone a MEAL

Some learn the shitas harambam that since "keitzad chovas seudah zu..." is
followed in the same halacha with dinei mishloach manos, therefore the
chiyuv of mishloach manos must be part and parcel of the chiyuv seudah
(which acc to rambam must include meat and wine). (derech agav: other
girsaos in the rambam do not have this as one halacha, and the rambam
lists 2 "manos shel basar" as a possibility of mishloach manos - clearly
not 2 berachos, and a difficulty how it is 2 minim)

Question: the Aruch HaShulchan writes that for matanos l'evyonim one's
wife is yotzei with her husband's giving because they are like one guf.
However, I have not see anyone (including A"h) suggest the same sevara
by mishloach manos. Why?

-Chaim

In a message dated 3/7/2003 9:58:31 AM EST, micha@aishdas.org writes:
> I'll see the BhM. However, I don't think it's "obvious". Asheknazi
> treatment of neir Chanukah when one is alone seems to assume that there
> is a qiyum pirsumei nisah in reminding *oneself* of the neis. Which is
> why we say "she'asah nissim". (Sepharadim would light without a berakhah.)

SA/MEchabeir paskens to light Ner Chanukkah in shul due to pirsumei nissa.
IIRC BY says otherwise

NB: We only say birchas Harav es Riveinu ONLY in Shul
MB claims laining Megillah in Shul is mekayem rav Am hadras Melech I
claim that this is lav davka b'rav am that there is a speical kiyyum - if
not a lechatchila chov - of reading in shul due to pirsuemi nissa davka.

Sephardim recite Hallel on Seder night IN SHUL with a Bracha. The Tosefta
suggests that this is due to people who are unable to recite Hallel
w/o help.
And IRIC GRA says we follwo this Tosefta I hold that this might actually
be due to pirsumei nissa.

As Such Ashkenazim light Ner Chanukkah with a Bracha in Shul for pirsumei
Nissa {and So R. Y. Karo in SA} and If my hypothesis is correctt Sephardim
recite Halle lwith a braha in shul for pisumei nissa and BOTH sets have
to then go home and repeat the process at home with a bracha.

In no way is pirsumei nissa berabbim meakaiv for megillah BUT it does
answer several questions EG why davka
1) Mevatlin Talmud Torah 
and 
2) why poskim say the Besullos should go to shul for Megillah.
IOW Why can't the learners in Beis Midrahs stay put and why can'
Bsullos stay home.

IAISI t's not due to b'rav am, rather it's because of pirsumei Nissa
berabbim davka, although ein hachi nami it is NOT l'ikuva.

Kein Nir'eh Li.

I discussed this very point with my LOR - Rabbi Larry Rothwachs only
about an hour before my Mom was niftera.

Kol Tuv - Best Regards
Richard Wolpoe <RabbiRichWolpoe@aol.com>

In a message dated 3/7/2003 12:59:03 PM EST, charlesf.brown@gs.com writes:
>> That said, how many people say "Torah tzivah lanu Moshe..." before
>> those berakhos? Does the fact that there is a 2nd chiyuv, a matbei'ah
>> tefillah -- which is therefore derabbanan -- not make it also a qiyum
>> of limud TSBK?

> That is the 2 deyos in S"A 46:9, see M"B there. Issue comes up for saying
> selichos before birchas hatorah.  Ain hachi nami, maybe saying pesukim as
> tefillah is not the same cognitive process that we call t"t.

This is actually a quite complex issue
The Tur and KAJ do Birchas HaTorah AFTER Meksdeish es shimach barabbim The
Rema says not so late in the davening, but definitely after slichos
and Mah Tovu (the Rema calls it psukim upon entering shul) Rema does
sya Birchas Hatorah BEFORE Elokai Neshama
Others say that Elokai Hesham should preceed Birshcas Hatora and folow
Ahser Yatazar
Gra v'sayaso say Birchas Hatorah before ANY psukkim even tchinos - though
I have also seen the GRA's siddur that seems to follow Tur's location...


MB seems to think that Rema agrees with first GRA above, but IMHO it is
a mis-read and Rema is disgreeing with Tur to that extent but NOT fully
agreeing with GRA.

{This IMHO is an example where a poseik- i.e. MB - is reading something
INTO something or "spinning". Rema is actually arguing with Tur on making
Birchas Hatora too late, but in anotehr place says befeirush that psukkim
ARE muttar before Birchas Hatorah.. Ayein Sham W/O having attended KAJ,
I, too, might have not realized what the Rema was objecting too}

I was going to write a small article on this issue, and this is the
tamztis. Yasher koach for bring up the subject.

Kol Tuv - Best Regards
Richard Wolpoe <RabbiRichWolpoe@aol.com>

In a message dated 3/7/2003 12:59:10 PM EST, MPoppers@kayescholer.com writes:
> RWolpoe wrote:
>> I'm not sure if singing Mah Tovu Acappella with a choir is a problem,
>> but it's worth looking into.

> I'm thinking that your coming together with rayim (in this case, to form a
> choir) is something you can't do until next year, but I'm not your Rav (or
> your posaik, or your moreh horo-oh, or your... :-)).

FWIW Re: Simhcas Merie'im
The Mishna in Elu Meglachin and the Peirsuh Hamishnayos leRambam sham
suggest that Simchas meirei'im is about exchanging food or meals, akin
to Mishloah manos ISH MEREIU. So this explains why avilim do not eat
at weddings, etc.. Social gatherings per se therefore are not assur
based upon this read of the Mishna. If they are considered assur today,
it would be interesting to find the earliest source for that p'shat

Kol Tuv - Best Regards
Richard Wolpoe <RabbiRichWolpoe@aol.com>

On 7 Mar 2003 at 14:21, Micha Berger wrote:
> The basic oxymoron: the pasuq starts "timcheh" and ends "lo tishkakh".
> (It's like the old kids' line: "I'll give you $5 if you're not
> thinking about pink elephants 5 seconds from now." How do you
> eliminate a thought without thinking about that very thing as part of
> your effort?)

Why not learn it as "timcheh" but until you're m'kayem "timcheh," "lo 
tishkach." That strikes me as pshat in the pasuk. 

-- Carl

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> 
> A side issue about your example: I wonder how many actually would consider 
> the child of IVF to be a mamzer. AFAIK, this is the shitah of the Satmar 
> Rav zt"l -- a noted poseiq, but a da'as yachid....`

The SR z'l does NOT consider AIH as a mamzer - only someone born from
AID - for which he is far from a daas yochid.

SBA

The Hakhel bulletin ( Avoda V10 #121) claims <<The Mishne Berurah (52:
seif katan 9), however, poskens that one is obligated to repeat the
skipped P'sukei D'zimrah after davening. >>

Not in my MB. The MB is referring to the statement of the Ramo to say
birchas hashachar after davening, on which he adds (from the GRA) that
one is mechuyav.

I am not familiar with any MB on the subject. Is anyone else?

Akiva B.

On Sat, Mar 08, 2003 at 08:34:32PM -0500, sba@iprimus.com.au wrote:
: The SR z'l does NOT consider AIH as a mamzer - only someone born from
: AID - for which he is far from a daas yochid.

I thought the first part was obvious, but thanks for clarifying.

Who other than the SR considers it mamzeirus?

See page 2 of <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/henkinAdoption.pdf>.
R' Henkin holds that AIH is a violation of "lo sihyeh qedeishah" --
not eishes ish. And lo kol shekein no question of producing a mamzer.
As noted already RMF is even more meiqil, although insists the donor
be a non-Jew. I've looked through the inyan, and frankly haven't seen
anyone machmir who wasn't simply following the SR.

Gut Voch!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org            you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org       You light a candle.
Fax: (413) 403-9905             - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l

At 11:53 PM 3/8/03 +0200, Carl and Adina Sherer wrote:
>On 7 Mar 2003 at 14:21, Micha Berger wrote:
>> The basic oxymoron: the pasuq starts "timcheh" and ends "lo tishkakh".
>> (It's like the old kids' line: "I'll give you $5 if you're not
>> thinking about pink elephants 5 seconds from now." How do you
>> eliminate a thought without thinking about that very thing as part of
>> your effort?)

>Why not learn it as "timcheh" but until you're m'kayem "timcheh," "lo
>tishkach." That strikes me as pshat in the pasuk.

I do not think so.

Take, case in point, also, the dichotomy between "kesov zos zikkaron
ba'sefer... ki macho emcheh es zecher Amalek." Similar to what Micha
wrote, yet different, I would say a zecher is different than a zikkaron,
and it that lies the resolution to the paradox and the explanation of
Friday night kiddush as well.

Kol Tuv,
YGB
ygb@aishdas.org  or  ygb@yerusalmionline.org
essays, tapes and seforim at: www.aishdas.org;
on-line Yerushalmi shiurim at www.yerushalmionline.org

**********************


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