Avodah Mailing List

Volume 11 : Number 004

Thursday, April 24 2003

• Re: Pesach shiurim
• Re: Pesach shiurim
• [Areivim] source question
• RE: [Areivim] source question
• Re: source question
• Ahavah in Mussaf
• Pants or Skirts
• Hachana MiYom Yov L'Chavertah
• Re: Was the Rambam a "Maimonidean?"
• Re: oats
• Gaal Yisrael
• Re: Pants or Skirts
• The Idea of Ruchnius
• Re: source question
• order of mitzvot

R' Micha Berger wrote: <<< I recommend using weight. Weigh the proper
volume of matzah, and take a piece of the same weight for the seder. >>>

Two problems: (1) Figuring out the proper volume, given that you
yourself point to the wide disparity in thicknesses of matzos even from
the same bakery. (2) Weighing it by hand (i.e., estimating and guessing)
is going to be even more inaccurate than anything suggested yet. Weighing
portions on a sensitive electric scale before Yom Tov will work only for
the others at the table -- whoever have his own 2 or 3 matzos will need
a very sensitive mechanical scale.

He also wrote <<< This also eliminate the problem of getting the volume
of the air; >>>

But *some* air DOES count toward the kezayis, namely the very small
airspaces. A kezayis which has lots of small airholes will weigh less,
and a kezayis which has fewer airholes will weigh more.

What's the solution? Beats me. I'm just gonna follow Rav Moshe's
measurements and hope that its okay with Hashem.

Kol tuv
Akiva Miller

On Wed, Apr 16, 2003 at 05:14:40PM -0400, kennethgmiller@juno.com wrote:
: R' Micha Berger wrote: <<< I recommend using weight. Weigh the proper
: volume of matzah, and take a piece of the same weight for the seder. >>>

: Two problems: (1) Figuring out the proper volume, given that you
: yourself point to the wide disparity in thicknesses of matzos even from
: the same bakery. (2) Weighing it by hand (i.e., estimating and guessing)
: is going to be even more inaccurate than anything suggested yet. Weighing
: portions on a sensitive electric scale before Yom Tov will work only for
: the others at the table -- whoever have his own 2 or 3 matzos will need
: a very sensitive mechanical scale.

I'm not sure why #1 comes up at all. Someone translates the volume of
some shitah, say R' Moshe's (to use your stated preference) into a weight
of matzah. You thenm use that weight to implement the shiur.

As for your #2, you create a false dichotomy. A simple diet scale, which
is spring loaded and mechanical, would be sufficient. I'm arguing that
such a scale, even given that we're assuming all matzos have the same
weight per volume, would give you more accurate answers than guessing
by area (and therefore ignoring differences in thickness).

: He also wrote <<< This also eliminate the problem of getting the volume
: of the air; >>>

: But *some* air DOES count toward the kezayis, namely the very small
: airspaces. A kezayis which has lots of small airholes will weigh less,
: and a kezayis which has fewer airholes will weigh more.

But that is only an issue once: when the shiur is translated from volume
to weight. If your matzah is airier, then the extra air is automatically
eliminated.

: What's the solution? Beats me. I'm just gonna follow Rav Moshe's
: measurements and hope that its okay with Hashem.

This has nothing to do with whose shi'urim you use. It has to do with how
one could possibly use those shiurim to actually measure matzah.

Gut Voch!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 The mind is a wonderful organ
micha@aishdas.org            for justifying decisions
http://www.aishdas.org       the heart already reached.
Fax: (413) 403-9905          

Can anyone point me to where it says that when Moshiach comes, all the
chagim will be cancelled except for purim?

Chag Sameach,
Avi Burstein

Reply from a friend:

It's a Yalkut Shimoni, Mishlei 944.

However, the midrash can't be understood in the simple sense. Take a
look at what the Alshich says in Mareh HaPanim, Yerushalmi, Megillah 1:5
(one of the peirushim at the end of the Yerushalmi).

Alternately, you could check pp.168-170 of a great new book called
"On Eagles' Wings" by Hershel Brand for a full explanation. Available
at Jewish bookstores and Amazon.com :))

Hershel

R' Avi Burstein asked <<< Can anyone point me to where it says that when
Moshiach comes, all the chagim will be cancelled except for purim? >>>

"When Moshiach Comes", by Yehudah Chayoun, pg 97, says:

Among the "positive" commandments to be abolished:
All holidays except Purim (and possibly Yom Kippur): In the future, we
will realize the good in everything,[34] even our servitude in Egypt.
Therefore, we will cease to celebrate our redemption therefrom, as we
do today on each festival. In contrast, Purim commemorates how Haman
and Achashveirosh's seemingly evil decree was actually a blessing, so
this holiday will remain even in the Messianic era. (In fact, Rambam
rules that all of Nach will be abolished except Megillas Esther.)[35]
Radbaz understands the discontinuation of the festivals differently,
positing that everyday joy will simply equal that of the holidays.[36]

[34] See Pesachim 50a
[35] See Rambam, Hilchos Megillah 2:18
[36] See Radvaz, vol. 2, ch. 828.

Why do we say in muusaf on Yom Tov 'Vatiten lonu .. ba'ahava..chag
hamatzos..[be'ahava] mikro kodesh..

Why the second 'ahava' only on shabbos?

Why the first also the rest of the week?

This is a series of questions that pertains to the issue of women's
clothing.

Where is it dictated what a woman may or may not wear?
What is considered modest and by whom?
Does the issue of place and time have any bearing?
Why aren't there such equal restrictions on men?
Please before responding, look up everything and only reply if you have
source material to back it up with.
This is a very complex issue and I am trying to study it and understand
it fully.

Thank you,
Joseph Mosseri

I observed that the biur halacha, citing the Pri Megaddim, proscribes
preparing for Yom Tov Sheini during bein hashemashos, implying [to
me] that said preparation is an issur deoraysa. This raises several
questions:

1. What is the issur? I observe that all the examples the Tur gives
involve melacha, and certainly even on Shabbos one may be machsich all
hatchum (i.e. prepare without doing melacha) l'sheim mitzva. Why may
one not perform non-melacha preparations l'shem mitzva bein hashemashos?

2. Normally on Motzaei Shabbos we (at least those of us who don't
think Rabbeinu Tam's opinion is ikkar hadin) are extremely machmir,
long beyond ikkar hadin, before we make havdalah. I couldn't find any
acharonim who discuss this, but all the shul rabbis/bulletins I've ever
seen in my life are equally machmir bein yom tov l'chavertah. Why?

3. These are especially urgent questions before the second seder, when
there's a countervailing mitzva of starting promptly so the children
will stay awake.

David Riceman
whose 5-year-old son fell asleep during maggid at the second seder

On Tue, Apr 15, 2003 at 11:00:46AM -0400, Mlevinmd@aol.com wrote:
: Until Brisk came along, was there anyone in the whole wide Jewish world
: besides in the isolated Yemen, who was a maimonidean in terms of psak
: halacha.

FWIW, the person whose description caused this thread is very proud
of his heritage from al Andus.

: The general trend in the realm of hashkofa is to follow the Ramban and
: his scholl, is it not?

Well, certainly not the Rambam. But I don't know if I would assert
the Ramban over, say, the Kuzari.

But we weren't discussing aggadita. Rambam's say has much weight
in halachah -- witness the say he was given in the SA, if nothing
else.

: The Rambam was always a controversial figure, in his day and among
: the Rishonim. We must be grateful for his contribution lhagdil torah
: ulhaadira; however, many acharonim also criticized him; Gro, Netsv and
: RSR Hirsh for starters.

Again, that was within aggadita, where they felt the Rambam ended up
fitting Torah to Aristotle rather than using A as a tool for understanding
Torah.

: Is not being a maimonidean a retrogression against halachic and hashkafic
: consensus?

Yes, but...

If Ravina and Rav Ashi are sof hora'ah, what sould a later consensus
mean anything anyway?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                     Time flies...
micha@aishdas.org                        ... but you're the pilot.
http://www.aishdas.org                           - R' Zelig Pliskin
Fax: (413) 403-9905          

In a message dated 3/24/2003 7:07:28 PM EDT, turkel@post.tau.ac.il writes:
:> R. Eliyashiv is very insistent that oats is one of the 5 minim and says
:> we rely on our kabbalah for kulah and chumrah and that he doesn't care
:> what professors have to say

On Tue, Apr 08, 2003 at 10:06:12AM -0400, RabbiRichWolpoe@aol.com wrote:
: Interesting. The Minhag in our shul is to say G'al Yisrael out loud and
: someone quote R. Elyahsiav as a source for ingoring the minhg hamadkoom
: and refused to say G'al Yisrael out loud! I wonder if he knew about
: this siutation!

How are the two comparable?

The case of oats is one of science vs Toras Imekha. (To give the word
"mimeticism" a rest for chol hamo'ed.)

The case of "ga'al yisra'el" is one of Mussar Avikha vs Toras Imekha.
Sevara vs what was done in the kehillah.

RYBS, for example, would have problems with change in the first case,
but far fewer (if any) in the 2nd.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                     Time flies...
micha@aishdas.org                        ... but you're the pilot.
http://www.aishdas.org                           - R' Zelig Pliskin
Fax: (413) 403-9905          

Some time ago we discussed the shatz dropping his voice. IIRC the question
of the source (not reason for) of this practice was never stated.
In R' Daniel Sperber's Minhagei Yisrael vol 4 discusses this issue
(see O"C 66:7 w/commentaries - which discuss mechaber-should say amen,
rama-no and to be safe m"b say bracha w/shatz). Interestingly he turns
up no source other than the common practice!

moed tov
joel rich

JosephMosseri wrote:
> Why aren't there such equal restrictions on men?

The prohibition against men wearing pants is for a different reason.  See
Even HaEzer 23:6.

David Riceman

In Hil Yesodei haTorah 2:3, mal'achim are called tzuros beli chomer.
In the Moreh 1:49, they are defined as sichliyim nivdalim. Both then go
on to give his shitah that nevi'im are therefore only seen benevu'ah,
and never be'ayin.

The notion that tzurah is linked to seichel is also found in his (and
many of the scholastic rishonim) definition of da'as. Yedi'ah is the
participate in the tzurah of the yadu'ah. This creates a yichud hayodei'ah
vehayadu'ah, which in sifrei Kabbalah is connected to the use of da'as
for marital intimacy.

It's also found in computer theory. Information is independent of the
chomer that represents it. A bit is a bit whether a "1" means the flow
of electricity in a wire, whether it means a lack of such flow and "0"
is implemented by current, whether it's implemented as black and white
balls, etc...

But the Rambam's understanding of mal'achim implies more than that. It
identifies seichel with neshamah, and ideas with ruchnius.

This identity is also muchrach from the existance of bechirah. Here we
have a property of the neshamah which must belong to the mind.

Bechirah must be ruchani because it's the tzelem E-lokim (Moreh 1:1).
OTOH, there is no meaning to the concept without the sichli concepts of
self-awareness and conscious thought.

No problem if we assume an identity of mind and soul. Or that the mind
is a function / aspect of the soul. Similarly the Gra (Peirush al Kama
Agados 11a) identifies conscious thought with the ru'ach (used in the
Nara"n sense).

This point may seem obvious to some, avantgard to others. Particularly
if one looks at the equation not only on a personal level, but also on
a global one.

Olam ha'Emes becomes just that: an existance of truths. A form of
existance where truths themselves are real, without needing a physical
instantiation. This is unsurprising, given that the ideas I started with
are often labeled Platonic or neoPlatonic, and Plato had this concept of
Logos, a higher world of pure thought. Our "reality" is but the shadows
on the wall of the cave in his famous metaphor.

This identity implies that the ability to create an idea in someone's head
/is/ the power to raise nitzotzos, lesaqein olam, to clarify kelipos,
etc... There is no gap between Hirsch's discussion of lessons learned
by symbols and more traditional presentations of Kabbalah. Those ideas
in people's heads have an ontological reality, they truly exist.

It also shines a pretty novel light on what RCVilozhiner writes in
Nefesh haChaim 1:18 WRT how the avos were able to intuit the Torah.
Someone on a sufficient madreiga could feel the flaws in themselves and
know what tiqun is required. And, since spiritual change requires people,
by being mesaqein themselves they cause tiqun olam. Again, an idea that
becomes trivial under our assumption -- the two are identical! Spiritual
change and personal change are the same thing.

Again, I'm not asserting an unreality to devarim ruchniim as described
benigleh ubenistar. I'm asserting a greater reality to devarim sichliim.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 A cheerful disposition is an inestimable treasure.
micha@aishdas.org            It preserves health, promotes convalescence,
http://www.aishdas.org       and helps us cope with adversity.
Fax: (413) 403-9905                - R' SR Hirsch, "From the Wisdom of Mishlei"

Avi wrote:
>Can anyone point me to where it says that when Moshiach comes, all the
> chagim will be cancelled except for purim?

It is in Midrash Mishlei. See the glosses of Maharatz Chajes to Nidah
61b for that and many other related sources.

Gil Student

I believe that RYBS' minhag was to first eat romaine lettuce and then
chrein. R' Mayer Twersky once gave a shiur on why he did this order
davka and not first chrein and then romaine lettuce. (I might have the
order reversed. I obviously don't remember the details of the shiur).

There is a discussion (I believe RCS) that given 2 etrogim, one a hadar
but maybe murkav and the second definitely kasher but not hadar.
The psak was to first take the hadar that was a safek if it is murkav
and then take the not hadar.
The rationale is that once one is yotzeh with the non-hadar then the
second etrog doesn't help. However, if one chooses the safek first then
if it is not murkav then one is yotzeh with a hadar. If it is murkav
then one is yotzeh with the xecond non-hadar etrog.

--
 Prof. Eli Turkel,  turkel@post.tau.ac.il on 04/24/2003
Department of Mathematics, Tel Aviv University

********************


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