Avodah Mailing List

Volume 11 : Number 021

Tuesday, June 3 2003

• BSD
• Brocha on Shabbos Tzitzis
• kdai
• haftaroth on klaf
• Re: haftaroth on klaf
• Re: BS"D
• Re: BS"D
• Re: Persian Era
• Re: www.koshershaver.org
• eishet chayil
• eishet chayil
• Eating dairy on Shabou'ot
• eggs - yom tov
• Second Day of Yom Tov for a Ben Chu"l in EY
• kever rachel
• Re: Areivim Digest V11 #117 q'vorim revealed by the Ari Hakodoish
• Re: Ezra, Malachi & Mordecha
• Re: eggs - yom tov
• surgery eruv yomtov
• Re: eggs - yom tov
• kevorim - shavuot
• yom tov

Minchat Yitzchak 1:17 holds that when the name of God is used in a
language other than Hebrew, although there is no technical prohibition
of erasing it, it is still improper to dispose of this material in an
undignified manner or take such reading material into the bathroom.

This ruling applies equally to the writing of "G-d" or "BSD". The
reasoning of the Minchat Yitzchak is presumably that the word "God"
deserves some level of dignity because its referent is to The Holy One
Blessed Be He. Striking out the "o" does not change the reference. The
concept that is called to mind by "God", "BSD", and "G-d" are one and
the same. Each word is merely an arbitrary set of signs in English to
which we attach the concept of God. Seemingly it might be inappropriate
to throw such a paper out.

-Yair Horowitz

In Avodah 11:20, someone posted the "THE HAKHEL COMMUNITY AWARENESS
BULLETIN, Reviewed by HaRav Yisroel Belsky, Shlita", which wrote: <<< One
should consult with his Rav as to the necessity of making a new brocha
of Al Mitzvas Tzitzis when putting back on his tzitzis (and certainly
when putting on a specially-designated pair of "Shabbos tzitzis") after
bathing on Erev Shabbos. >>>

I don't see what the question is. When he made the bracha Friday morning
on his weekday tzitzis, how would that cover the Shabbos tzitzis that
he puts on many hours later after a hefsek of bathing?

Is this situation any different than one who wears a tallis on Erev Yom
Kippur morning, and then says a brocha on a different (or maybe even
the same) tallis later that day for Kol Nidre?

Akiva Miller

<<Cookies and Cream One of the flavors of Klein's parve ice cream is
"Cookies and Cream" which contains cookie crumbs or bits which are
sprinkled through areas of vanilla frozen dessert. The appropriate
brocha rishona on this product is shehakol, but it is k'dai to make a
borei minei mezonos on another product and have in mind at that time to
be motzi the cookie part of the ice cream as well.>>

What level of chumra is "kdai". I don't think that is one of the
categories in SA, i.e. is it tovah alov beracha etc.

--
 Prof. Eli Turkel,  turkel@post.tau.ac.il on 06/01/2003
Department of Mathematics, Tel Aviv University

From: David Riceman <dr@insight.att.com>

<<I once asked our shul president if I should assemble a team to
 donate a sefer haftaroth on klaf for the shul, and he told me that
 it was hard enough to find baalei kriah already, and he didn't want
 to restrict the people who could read the haftorah. So there may be
 pragmatic reasons for not using klaf.>>

Instead of asking the president, maybe you should have asked the baal
keriah <g>. In any event, you should ask the Rav first since I think
that if it's been a klaf sefer haftoros vs. a printed full tanach,
preference is the full tanach.

As I answered someone in my shul who suggested buying one. No I'm not
the Rav, but the discussion took place outside shul, and I did tell him
to check what I told him with the Rav.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

In a message dated 06/01/2003 10:37:00 AM EDT, gershon.dubin@juno.com writes:
> Instead of asking the president, maybe you should have asked the baal
> keriah <g>. In any event, you should ask the Rav first since I think
> that if it's been a klaf sefer haftoros vs. a printed full tanach,
> preference is the full tanach.

Halacha Lmaaseh-certainly ask the Rav but I'd appreciate if someone
does that they get a full explanation that they can report back. R'OY
in yichaveh daat 8:26 holds that it's better to read from a klaf sefer
hahaftarot than from any printed version , if not, it's better to read
from a full printed navi then from a printed sefer hahaftarot. Anyone
know of any other sources on this question?

KT
Joel Rich 

R.Gil Student writes: 
> Rambam writes in Hilchos Yesodei Ha-Torah 6:5, "All other kinuyin that
> praise God such as 'chanun', 'rachum', 'ha-gadol ha-gibor veha-nora',
> 'ha-ne'eman', 'kano', 'chazak' and similar are like other parts of
> Scripture and it is permissible to erase them."

> However, when the Sefer Ha-Chinuch (537) quotes this Rambam, he adds
> "it is permissible to erase them *for a need*".

> Based on this, R' Ahron Soloveitchik in Parach Mateh Aharon (Mada, p.
> 5-46) writes very briefly that even according to the Rambam one may
> only erase a kinu'iy if there is a need.  Otherwise, one may not erase
> it.

Im kabalah hi n'kabeil, v'im l'din yeish ladun. The Chinuch (which is
437, not 537) does not quote the Rambam; he is stating his opinion. [I
believe that a better translation of his words, "l'tzorech shum davar,"
is "for any need whatever."] Since the Rambam did not add that it be for
a need, nor is it mentioned (to the best of my knowledge) by any poseik,
it would seem that the Chinuch is a da'as yachid.

But even assuming that the din is as quoted by the Chinuch, how does
beis-samech-daled qualify? I would argue that even writing it out is
no kinuy, since "shmaya" is not an attribute of Hashem, but metonymy.
Even if we stretch the point, and say that allusions are included in the
term "kinuy," and I would like to know a source for it, certainly the
daled is not even an allusion. It is a symbol which leads the reader to
fill in mentally "dish'maya," but it certainly isn't written.

In addition, bs"d has the "heteir meiah rabbanim," since there are and
were hundreds and thousands of rabbonim who regularly used the term in
writing. Could it be that none of them were aware that the halachah is
in accordance with the Chinuch?

Finally, does RAS mean that one should refrain, when writing, from using
such terms as Hashem yisborach, im yirtzeh Hashem, Hashem y'racheim,
kiddush Hashem, chillul Hashem, etc.? If not, then it is a kal vacomer
ben b'no shel kal vachomer that bs"d can be written.

EMT

Elazar M Teitz <remt@juno.com> wrote:
> Finally, does RAS mean that one should refrain, when writing, from using
> such terms as Hashem yisborach, im yirtzeh Hashem, Hashem y'racheim,
> kiddush Hashem, chillul Hashem, etc.? If not, then it is a kal vacomer
> ben b'no shel kal vachomer that bs"d can be written.

I spoke to R. Eliahu Soloveichik yesterday and he told me that his
father, RAS, did not mean to say that it is Assur to write BSD. He
merely felt that any refference to God, even those you mention above
should be avoided in print if possible in cases where it is likely that
such material will be improperly discarded. So, eventhough BSD may not
technically qualify in the same way as BH he discouraged his Talmidim
from writing it on every sheet of paper that they wrote anything on.

HM

"Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" wrote:
> The mesorah PREdates the "missing years" - Sod Ha'Ibbur is from Mattan Torah.

I know the rishonim are somewhat cagey about what sod haibbur is, but
I had understood them to understand it as an explanation of how the
moon moves, which is capable of generating an algorithm, rather than a
particular algorithm.

David Riceman

[RGStudent] wrote:
>I can say that not only did R' Mordechai Willig permit
>using a lift-and-cut shaver, he used it himself when he
>used to shave some of his beard and his sons used it also.

I have heard that he has changed his mind with regard to later models
since then.Don't know if it is true. Anyway, Rav Dovid Feinstien holds
you can easily fix the lift and cut so they are mutar. I have done that
with mine since I find the quality of Norelco better than other brands.

[Bounced from Areivim. -mi]

From: <simchag@att.net>
>> SBA:
>> Eishes chayil an allegory for Israel?
>> I thought is was for the Torah.

> I think it's for the Shechinah Hakdoishe..

AFAIK Shir Hashirim refers to the SH and Klall Yisroel .

Anyway, this morning I decided to do my 'instant expert' shtick
and looked up a few meforshim re Eishes Chayil.

In the siddur Otzar Hatefilos the peirush Etz Yosef b'sheim the Gro writes:
"..EC hi haTorah..."

The Metzudos, Targum and Malbim all seem to learn pshat - kepshutoy -
discussing the maalos of a good wife.

Rashi also says so...However... at the end he states that that is a
melizteh..
and starts a new way of drush - writing it is a 'moshol al haTorah
velomdeho..."

SBA

In our house we sing Eshes Chayil before kiddush on Friday night, and
even if it is just an allegory, I take it as a positive statement about
women and what a hole there would be in a family without a mother.

I once read somewhere that not only is eishet chayil an allegory for
Israel but that it SHOULD be taken literally also and that it is said
on friday night also for the wife and not just for shabbat.
Does anyone have any sources for this?
--
 Prof. Eli Turkel,  turkel@post.tau.ac.il on 05/25/2003
Department of Mathematics, Tel Aviv University

Dear Rabbis, Professors, Friends, and Family,

This is a subject that I wrote about last year and although I haven't
had much time to write for the last 6 months many of you have asked me
to send out my findings on this topic.

I have updated and corrected many items in it and I humbly ask for your
comments and suggestions on any and all facets of this topic.

Joseph Mosseri
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I've been perplexed by this issue for very long and I was wondering if
someone could shed some light on this issue.

What is the origin of eating dairy on Shabou'ot?

It seems as if the Rama is the 1st one to mention it, but I've heard
of references to the KolBo. Can anyone date the earliest source for
this custom?

Those that do eat a dairy meal on Shabou'ot, how do they deal with the
obligation of eating a meat meal on YomTob?

Is this dairy custom universal, or did it spread out slowly from certain
Eastern European communities to the rest of the Jewish world??


According to HaRambam, the meals of YomTob must be joyous ones and as
he says prescribed by the Torah and therefore all holiday meals must
consist of meat and wine.

How can people belittle this important holiday by intentionally doing
away with meat?????????

The only time we intentionally forego meat is prior to Tisha'ah Be'Ab
as a sign of mourning for the loss of the Bet HaMiqdash.

What is the origin of this custom?

For many years I've searched into the source of this custom.
I found plenty of reasons explaining why dairy is eaten by some or how
it is connected to Matan Torah.
But all these seem to be after the fact, basically trying to "kosher"
this custom.

The earliest source I have for this custom is the Kol Bo.
{Kol Bo, anonymous work on Jewish Law, probably by Rabbi Aharon ben
Ya'aqob HaKohen of Lunel (1262-1325) first printed in Naples, 1490}
There it states: "There is an established custom to eat honey and milk on
the festival of Shabou'ot since the Torah is compared to honey and milk
as it is written Honey and Milk beneath your tongue"
We next find this custom mentioned by the Rama (1525-1572) in his hagahot
to Shoulhan 'Aroukh at the very end of siman 494.
He states: "And there is the custom in some places to eat dairy foods on
the 1st day of Shabou'ot and it seems to me that the reason is........."

After that all we find are different reasons throughout the last few
centuries by the commentators.

All the Sefardic sources I have searched make no reference to this being
the custom in their lands or communities.

To eat a complete dairy meal seems to be completely unknown and unheard
of.

Rabbi Shem Tob Gaguine in his Keter Shem Tob only mentions that
there is a custom to eat some cheese within the breakfast meal the
morning of Shabou'ot. Basically after you get home (from being up all
night and reading the Tiqoun Leil Shabou'ot) have a dairy breakfast.
(Which actually isn't much different than the custom among all Jews of
the former Ottoman empire. Shabbat and holiday shahrit prayers were held
no later than 7:00 A.M. and commenced by about 9:30 A.M. Everyone then
went home for qidoush and breakfast. Minhah was always Minhah Gedolah,
by 1:00 P.M. the latest, then everyone returned home for the larger
meat meal of the day. This time frame and schedule is still adhered to
in the majority of traditional Sephardic synagogues in Israel.).

After consulting with Sephardic Jews from many communities and countries
it seems that this custom of eating dairy was virtually unknown until
reaching North America, Europe, & Australia and intermingling with
the Ashkenazim.

The only group which seems to have a definite dairy custom is that of
Aleppo, Syria.
According to elderly informants referring to the customs of their parents
(over a century ago) "the custom in Halab was to eat a light dairy meal
specifically on the first night of Shabou'ot, to facilitate staying up
all night and reading"

Every other group said that some of the pastries eaten towards the end
of the all night reading are dairy and sweet, so that's more than enough
to fulfill the custom by those who mention it.

I was never satisfied with just this information and finally I found
some startling history.

The following is from the very well documented book by John Cooper
entitled Eat and be Satisfied: A Social History of Jewish Food page 119:

"According to the testimony of Kalonymos ben Kalonymos, the Jews of
Provence at the beginning of the 14th century used to eat a specially
prepared honey cake in the shape of a ladder on Shavuot. Later in Germany
the cake was made with 7 rungs, symbolizing the 7 spheres rent by the
Almighty when He descended to give the Law. So, too, the earlier 13th
century Provencel philosopher Jacob ben Abba Mari Antoli asserted that it
was customary for Jews to partake of milk and honey on Shavuot, as these
foods were compared with the sustenance derived from the Torah. Among
the Christian community, during Lent honey cakes shaped like ladders
were consumed, and no doubt the Shavuot cake was modeled on a Christian
example, even if the Jews' neighbors ate their cake a month or 2 earlier"

If that wasn't enough....he continues and says:

"In central and eastern Europe dairy foods replaced the honey cake of
Provence on Shavuot, partly because there was an abundance of milk at this
time of the year and partly because dairy dishes were the standard festive
food at Whitsun in several parts of Germany, and the Scots celebrated
the festival of Beltane on May 1, when many dairy dishes were consumed."

He then goes on to describe certain pies and cakes and how they were
prepared.

For those of you who don't know :

Whitsun is white Sunday, the custom of wearing white robes by the newly
baptized who were numerous at this season.

Beltane is the first day of May in the old Scottish calendar and the
Celtic May Day festival.

This was very startling indeed and I'm glad that I do not have a custom
to eat a dairy meal on Shabou'ot.

This of course leads us to a very important question. What exactly are
the parameters of the law forbidding us from following the statutes
of the goyim, i.e. oubhouqotehem lo telekhou? Hakham Yisrael Mosheh
Hazan addresses this issue in the first chapter of his Responsa Kerakh
Shel Romi.


Incidentally, the custom among Egyptian Jewry, both The Rabbinate and
Karaite communities was to eat on the day of Shabou'ot, Goose and a
local herb soup called Molokheya. I've yet to discover the reasoning
behind this custom.

By now I'm sure many of you are finding this subject eye opening but
you would like to see how Rabbi Obadiah Yosef and family deal with
this subject.

Rabbi Obadiah Yosef in the Torah Journal, Qol Sinai, sivan 1964, page
258, states:
There is a custom to eat dairy items on Shabou'ot and some of the reasons
given are.......and our custom is to eat some dairy and after rinsing
out our mouths we eat meat.
And it is a missvah to eat meat on Yom Tob in order to fulfill the
obligation of being happy on the holiday, because there is no happiness
unless there is meat! (As a source for this he quotes Talmoud Babli,
Masekhet Hagigah 8b).

 From this we understand that a dairy meal is not eaten. Rather just
some dairy to fulfill the custom, immediately thereafter a true festive
meat meal is consumed.
His son Rabbi Yisshaq Yosef has written the same thing in his famous
Yalqout Yosef.

I just got a new book by Rabbi Obadiah Melamed on Halakhot and Minhagim
of the Jewish nation and particularly of the Yemenite communities. He
states that the custom of dairy has never been known to them and they
do not follow it. It's Yom Tob and they eat meat.

The celebrated Rabbi Yosef Qafih (of blessed memory) in his Halikhot
Teman, says the same thing. He also adds that not only is it YomTob and
only meat meals are eaten but when they first heard of the custom of
eating dairy meals they laughed and made fun of it!


The Hakhamim have made a statement:
En Simhah Ella BeBasar VeYayin. There is no happiness except with meat
and wine. Is this a halakhic dictate or a statement based upon the social
mores of society at their place and time. Any ideas?
That of course translates into the following:
How about personal preference? Should that be dictated by halakhah as
well? What about those who say the following: "well for me dairy is much
more festive, meat is not."
I'd like to ask those people what do they eat on the days prior to
Tish'ah BeAb, meat or cheese?I'm sure they all eat dairy!!
It seems to me that we have certain guidelines that the Hakhamim
throughout the generations have put in place, and they have dictated
that meat is a symbol of true happiness.

I hope I do not come across the wrong way with this but the Torah is
not a free for all, we can not make up our own rules and laws because
it is more comfortable or convenient for us. There are guidelines to be
used when determining halakhic ruling otherwise we may end up making a
mockery of the Torah. What a shame that would be, especially on Shabou'ot,
the holiday on which we celebrate the giving of the Torah to the Jewish
nation.

I'm not telling anyone to forego their customs but if they are not
grounded in Halakhah it can be problematic.

Please check the sources and discuss all aspects and consequences with
your Rabbi/Poseq.

To reiterate, from what I can make out the best time to fulfill the custom
of eating dairy would be for breakfast on the 1st morning of Shabou'ot.
After being out all night reading then praying return home recite qidoush
and have a light dairy breakfast, go to sleep, wake up refreshed and
ready for a festive meat lunch like any other YomTob.


At this point I want to thank Bore Olam for directing me to this piece
of Gemara.
Not only does it not mention dairy but it specifically refers to meat.
Pesahim 68b: Rab Yosef would order on the day of Shabou'ot "Prepare me
a third-born calf"
That is he ordered the calf that was born third to its mother which was
considered the best.


Please, I'm looking for more information so please do not hesitate to
write back.
Tell me what else you can find on the origins of this custom or what you
know about specific communities.

Tizkou Leshanim Rabot, Ne'imot VeTobot,
Mo'adim LeSimhah, Hagim Ouzmanim LeSason,
Joseph Mosseri
I am not a Rabbi or a Poseq.
I am just interested in discussing Halakhot & Minhagim, laws and customs.
I invite your insights, comments, criticisms, etc..
Please let me know if you would like me to forward the same to my list.
If you would like to be removed from this list or know of someone who would
benefit from it just let me know by including, first name, last name, &
e-mail.
Joseph Mosseri

1. A sheet they distributed in the tel avib university shul says that
one is not yotzeh eruv tavshilin with a peeled egg since it is a sakanah
to eat such an egg.
Since many people eat such eggs would that really prevent someone from
being yotzeh

2. They also point out that blood letting is not to be done on eruv
chag. Does anyone do blood letting nowadays? (except for some leeches).
They further quote a revavot ephraim that hence one should not have a
blood test which requires more than a little blood. Also suggests not
to do a Cesarean section eruv yom tov. Doesn't sound too practical to
me as one certainly shouldn't do it on yom tov and so it means waiting
several days which would not be healthy

3. One should wear nicer clothing on yom tov than shabbat. Does anyone
really have a special suit or even tie for yomtov and not shabbat?

--
 Prof. Eli Turkel,  turkel@post.tau.ac.il on 02/06/2003
Department of Mathematics, Tel Aviv University

R' Hershel Schachter with some interesting pesakim on the second day
of Yom Tov for a ben chu"l in EY.
<http://www.torahweb.org/torah/special/2003/rsch_ytsheini.html>

Gil Student

[Thread bounced from Areivim. -mi]

What is the origin of the place of kever Rachel in Bethlehem?
does that pre-date the Ari?
That is also controversial.

Eli Turkel

in an earlier post i wrote that it's been awhile and i don't recall R
Chaim Vital mentioning the kever of the Rambam.

i will have to take that back.

Reb Chaim Vital is writing down all the tziyoinim that the Ari revealed
to him b'toich devorov he mentions kevorim in the t'veryeh area

i will quote from the Shaar Hagilgulim Hakdomeh Lamed Zayen:

..teileich oid mishom ltzad maariv hechotzeir v'shom tziyon echad v'shom
kovur harambam v'oviv Z"TZL kmoi sh'oimrim ho'oilom...


it is hard to believe that the Ari didn't mean LITERALLY that the Rambam
and his father are buried there.

[Email #2, still bouncing from Areivim. -mi]

> R. Simcha, personally I share your puzzlement when you say <it is hard to 
> believe that the Ari didn't mean LITERALLY that the Rambam and his father are 
> buried there.>
> 
> Seth Mandel

Reb Seth

here is another interesting 'fact' that i saw in Shaar Hagilgulim
last night..

There is a kever in the Bais Hachayim in Tzfat that's attributed to the
Novi Hoishei'ah ben Be'eiri. Reb Chayim Vital writes that his Rebbe the
Ari told him that Hoishei'ah ben Be'eiri IS NOT buried there BUT rather
it is the Tana Reb Yehoishu'ah that's buried there and the names got
mixed up since Hoishei'ah is very close to Yehoishu'ah

Simcha G

R' Ya'akov Emden in his hagahos to Megillah writes that Ezra cannot be
Malachi.

Gil Student

On Mon, Jun 02, 2003 at 04:38:58PM +0000, Eli Turkel wrote:
: 2. They also point out that blood letting is not to be done on eruv
: chag. Does anyone do blood letting nowadays? (except for some leeches).

Even that isn't blood letting. Leeches are used as an anticoagulant.
The idea of letting blood out of the body for medical reasons isn't
believed anymore. (RJBackon I'm sure will post a couple of rare cases
when it is prescribed.)

However, how narrowly is this defined? How about scheduling surgery for
erev YT? What about some major treatment that might leave someone weak
that doesn't cause bleeding?

(Didn't we discuss this in the past?)

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 Today is the 46th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org            6 weeks and 4 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org       Netzach sheb'Malchus: How can some forms of
Fax: (413) 403-9905                             "unity" be over domineering?

>However, how narrowly is this defined? How about scheduling surgery
>for erev YT? What about some major treatment that might leave 
> someone weak that doesn't cause bleeding?

Tzitz Eliezer 12:46 says that one should not do surgery or intravenous
feedings on eruv yomtov unless it is an emergency (dachuf)

--
 Eli Turkel,  turkel@post.tau.ac.il on 02/06/2003
Department of Mathematics, Tel Aviv University

Eli Turkel wrote:
> 2. They also point out that blood letting is not to be done on eruv
> chag. Does anyone do blood letting nowadays?

People still donate blood which is (functionally) equivalent to a
blood letting. Around here bllod drives are usually several days,
so one can schedule around inconvenient times. I don't know how that
works in Israel. If a blood drive is exclusively on Erev Yom Tov I
wonder whether donating blood is safek pikuach nefesh (for the potential
recipient), in which case I imagine it's mutar.

David Riceman

I recently saw some notes from S. Leimanthat list a later from R.
Shlomo Shlumil (1607).
He says that twice a year the chachmei haemet (over 20 of them) go to
Meron that there are buried Rashbi, his son R. Eliezer, Hillel, Shammai
and R. Yochanan Hasandlar ...
This is done for 10 days before Shavuot and 10 days before Rosh Hashana
all the time

--
 Prof. Eli Turkel,  turkel@post.tau.ac.il on 03/06/2003
Department of Mathematics, Tel Aviv University

At 04:38 PM 6/2/03 +0000, Eli Turkel wrote:
>3. One should wear nicer clothing on yom tov than shabbat. Does anyone
>really have a special suit or even tie for yomtov and not shabbat?

I try to get something new for YT to fulfill this obligation. Not always -
but I am makpid to wear a nicer tie Shabbos morning than Shabbos evening
(kavod yom adif) but the same tie throughout YT. In Litvishe yeshiva
circles in EY (occasionally here), yungerleit will have frocks they wear
only on Yom Tov, while on Shabbos they wear short.

Kol Tuv,
YGB
ygb@aishdas.org  or  ygb@yerushalmionline.org
essays, tapes and seforim at: www.aishdas.org;
on-line Yerushalmi shiurim at www.yerushalmionline.org

*********************


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