Avodah Mailing List

Volume 11 : Number 077

Friday, September 26 2003

• Re: time of selichot
• RE: Aseres Ymei Tshuva (was Re: cholov Yisrael)
• Hypocracy and Avodas Hashem (was: CY Milk)
• RE: different minhagim about what time to say Selichos
• Hypocracy and Avodas Hashem (was: CY Milk)
• Re: Hashgocha protis - non chassidic view
• Re: Hashgocha protis - non chassidic view
• Re: Hashgocha protis - non chassidic view
• chumros
• RE: chumros
• tefillin knots
• tolaim
• Fw: [elu_velu] Taking Challah
• Websites and Shabbos
• Maharsha
• Re: Hashgocha protis - non chassidic view
• Re: Vesivchar leshon arumim
• Re: tefillin knots

With all the talk about the proper time for selichos, there's a relevant
data point that I didn't notice anyone mention.

All this discussion has been about the Selichos which we say in Elul
and Tishrei. What about Baha"b and Taaniyos?

My understanding is that (among those who do say Slichos then) it is
generally (universally?) placed before (or as part of) Tachanun. So some
interesting questions would include: (1) Did Selichos for Elul/Tishrei
begin before or after the Selichos for Baha"b/Taaniyos? and (2) Why are
they at different times? Is there something about the nature of the day
which makes one time more appropriate than the other?

Akiva Miller

On 25 Sep 2003 at 9:18, Ari Kahn wrote:
> This (and similar things about which we are careful only during the
> Aseres Ymei Tshuva) has always bothered me. Isn't a bit hypocritical?
> Do we think we're fooling the Ribbono Shel Olam by raising our
> madreiga for a week?

> No, we are trying to fool ourselves - into becoming the people we can.

If that's the case (and it should be if we are doing it at all), why 
is it so accepted to drop it after Yom Kippur? 

 -- Carl

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

[Bounced from Areivim. -mi]

>>To jump off onto something else....

>>This (and similar things about which we are careful only during the
>>Aseres Ymei Tshuva) has always bothered me. Isn't a bit
>>hypocritical? Do we think we're fooling the Ribbono Shel Olam by
>>raising our madreiga for a week?

>No, we are trying to fool ourselves - into becoming the people we can.

Maybe we can use this topic to springboard into a discussion about the
benefits and dangers in using hypocracy in avodas hashem.

On the one hand there is the famous principle established in the Sefer
HaChinuch, Acharei HaPeulos Nimshachim Halevavos (which i believe has
been discussed before on this list). This should promote actions which
can be seen as hypocritical in the hopes that it would ultimately advance
avodas hashem

But on the other hand the mussar sefarim are heavily invested in
the idea of cheshbon ha-nefesh and honestly. Often this encourages a
consistancy and personal honestly which would proclude taking on certain
actions/churmos/hanhagos/types of avodas hashem.

a) How do we balance these two principles?

b) What is the role of community in making these choices?

c) There is another question of yehora, which i think should be avoided
for now.

Kesivah ve-Chasimah Tovah,
Yonatan

> There has been some discussion backstage about the different minhagim
> regarding the time for saying selichos, and how/when/why these different
> minhagim arose. A common [the most common?] minhag in Europe was 5AM
> Sunday morning. Is midnight an American innovation? Some people seem
> to suspect as much.

I heard an interesting tidbit on this last night at the shiva kenes
for Rav Simcha Natan Segal, zt"l. A very fiery Sefardi Rav [who, even
though he is well known, his name escapes me this minute, but I will
try to remember it] spoke -- well, actually in the interest of truth I
must admit that he didn't exactly speak most of the time, he SCREAMED
AT THE TOP OF HIS LUNGS -- and his explanation as to why we start saying
slichot on Motzei Shabbos is as follows [paraphrased from the Hebrew]:

Since the only way that we can even have the temerity to think that we
have the right to appear in front of Hashem to ask His forgiveness for
anything is if we have the zchut of learning Torah, which is the only
thing that gives us the right to live [and he said both men and women are
included in this] then we start to say slichot on a motzei Shabbos when
everyone, including those people who unfortunately have to work to earn
their parnassa, have had a whole day in which to be immersed in Torah
learning. The zchut of that Shabbos Torah learning is what enables us
to have the right to say slichot.

He also said that since no one can stand up to din then the only
chance we have at all is to do constant chesed so that Hashem,
acting mida kneged mida, will do chesed with us and not subject us
to the true din that we deserve.

 ---Rena

This was sent to Areivim, but Micha recommended moving it to Avodah:

Maybe we can use this topic to springboard into a discussion about the
benefits and dangers in using hypocracy in avodas hashem.

On the one hand there is the famous principle established in the Sefer
HaChinuch, Acharei HaPeulos Nimshachim Halevavos (which i believe has
been discussed before on this list). This should promote actions which
can be seen as hypocritical in the hopes that it would ultimately advance
avodas hashem

But on the other hand the mussar sefarim are heavily invested in
the idea of cheshbon ha-nefesh and honestly. Often this encourages a
consistancy and personal honestly which would proclude taking on certain
actions/churmos/hanhagos/types of avodas hashem.

a) How do we balance these two principles?

b) What is the role of community in making these choices?

c) There is another question of yehora, which i think should be avoided
for now.

Kesivah ve-Chasimah Tovah,
Yonatan

>Quoting Micha Berger:

>To jump off onto something else....

>This (and similar things about which we are careful only during the
>Aseres Ymei Tshuva) has always bothered me. Isn't a bit
>hypocritical? Do we think we're fooling the Ribbono Shel Olam by
>raising our madreiga for a week?

>No, we are trying to fool ourselves - into becoming the people we can.

 ---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
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Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>This was sent&nbsp;to Areivim, but Micha recommended moving it to Avodah:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Maybe we can use this topic&nbsp;to springboard into a discussion about the benefits and dangers in using hypocracy in avodas hashem.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>On the one hand there is the famous principle&nbsp;established&nbsp;in the Sefer HaChinuch, Acharei HaPeulos Nimshachim Halevavos (which i believe has been discussed before on this list).&nbsp; This should promote&nbsp;actions which can be seen as hypocritical in the hopes that it would&nbsp;ultimately advance avodas hashem&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>But on the other hand the mussar sefarim are heavily invested in the idea of cheshbon ha-nefesh and honestly.&nbsp;&nbsp;Often this encourages a consistancy and personal honestly which would proclude taking on&nbsp;certain actions/churmos/hanhagos/types of avodas hashem.&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>a) How do&nbsp;we balance these two principles?&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>b) What is the role of community in making these choices?&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>c) There is another question of yehora, which i think should be avoided for now.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Kesivah ve-Chasimah Tovah,</DIV>
<DIV>Yonatan</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&gt;Quoting Micha Berger:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&gt;To jump off onto something else....<BR><BR>&gt;This (and similar things about which we are careful only during the<BR>&gt;Aseres Ymei Tshuva) has always bothered me. Isn't a bit<BR>&gt;hypocritical? Do we think we're fooling the Ribbono Shel Olam by<BR>&gt;raising our madreiga for a week?<BR><BR>&gt;No, we are trying to fool ourselves - into becoming the people we can.<BR></DIV></DIV></DIV><p><hr SIZE=1>
Do you Yahoo!?<br>
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R' Daniel Eidensohn wrote <<< To put the issue in a different context -
do "real" talmidei chochimim spend significant time on internet
discussion groups trying to clarify hashkofa issues? >>>

They may or may not spend time on the internet, but I certainly presume
that they do spend significant time trying to clarify hashkofa issues.
(Unless the quotes around the word "real" was meant sarcatically...)

And <<< They used to say that if R' Itzele Peterburgher hadn't wasted his
time with mussar he would have been a much bigger gadol. >>>

Maybe "becoming a bigger gadol" was not his top priority. Maybe he just
wanted to be a better Jew.

Akiva Miller

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Micha Berger wrote:
>Daniel Eidensohn wrote:

>>Since there is such a solid nonchasidic consensus that hashgocha
>>protis is a function of spiritual level - why insist that the
>>contrary chassidic point of view needs to be accepted? ...

>Is there solid consensus? Amongst rishonim, and earlier acharonim,
>perhaps. But amongst those after the Besh"t's chiddush -- even
>non-chassidim? Certainly mussar bought into it, and from there to other
>Litvaks (cf REED).

Did mussar accept the BESHT? I just did a quick survey in Aspaklaria and
could not find any evidence that Mussar accepts that HP applies also to
non man. Furthermore it agrees that HP is according to one's level. See
for example Michtav M'Eliyahu vol 5 p 308-309.

Would appreciate references that Mussar shifted to the BESHT. My quick
perusal indicates that they are in agreement with the Kuzari 5:20 that
I cited. A single citation that a leaf falls off a tree because of HP
or that a grain of sand falls because of HP would suffice.

Daniel Eidensohn

>There is a general lack of consensus over which non-Besht opinion even
>amongst the sources that you cited. In fact, amongst later voices, only
>the Meshech Chochmah is unequivicably in the Rambam's camp. More so, many
>(perhaps even most) rishonim and early acharonim DO posit a universal HP
>for people. It's WRT domeim, tzomei'ach and chai that the Besh"t really
>broke new ground.

You can add the Malbim to the camp of the Rambam. See Artzos HaChaim first
page in the Eretz Yehudah s.v. Shevisi: Where he explains the Rema's
inclusion of the Moreh Nevuchim according to the Moreh Nevuchim (3:51):
Hashgocha only applies to man to the degree to which he comprehends and
clings to the Seichel HaElyon. A shaleim who doesn't have a break in
his deveikus will not be harmed by anything...In contrast someone whose
thoughts turn from G-d then at those times hashgocah is removed from
him during that time and he is left to mikreh like an animal...

                Daniel Eidensohn

>> I remember that when I first learned tola'im the rule was very
>> simple:  If you
>> can't see it -- it isn't there.

> ONLY if you don't know it's there.

> However, if there is a chazaka of infestation, then that rule
> doesn't apply.

> And, unfortunately, infestation is a common problem with
> grains/vegetables here.

I believe you're mistaken.

Post to Avodah, and I'll explain why.

 -mi

> > And, unfortunately, infestation is a common problem with
> > grains/vegetables here.

> I believe you're mistaken.

Keep in mind none of these insects are "microscopic"

They are all visible to the unaided eye -- IF you know what to look for.

(quite often you can look and NOT see anything -- then use a magnifying
glass to find the insect -- at which point you CAN see it with the unaided
eye.)

Akiva

============
To expect the government to save you is to be a bystander in your own fate.
                Mark Steyn

does anyone know the origin of the two common tefillin shel rosh knots, 
the so-called single daled and double daled? which communities used which 
and why?

thanks,

 -- 

From a recent Areivim thread... 

R'n Shoshana Boublil wrote <<< I remember that when I first learned
tola'im the rule was very simple:  If you can't see it -- it isn't there.
So I soaked leaves and broccoli and cauliflower and checked them
afterwards and ate them -- and enjoyed Hashem's blessing to us. >>>

R' Akiva Atwood challenged <<< ONLY if you don't know it's there.
However, if there is a chazaka of infestation, then that rule doesn't
apply. And, unfortunately, infestation is a common problem with
grains/vegetables here. >>>

I offer to be the Davar HaShlishi Hamachria: RAA is pointing out a
chazaka. Because of that chazaka, one cannot simply eat it, relying on
the fact that you didn't see anything. However, if you do go to the
effort of looking at it, like RSB says, and you still haven't seen
anything, then you have shown it to be an exception, and the chazaka no
longer applies, and you can go eat it.

Akiva Miller

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A friend fwd this to me.

Shannah Tova,

Shoshana L. Boublil

> >>>>TAKING HALLAH

> I have been religiously observant for 18 years. Three months ago, a woman
> started giving a course in our neighborhood on the mitzvah of taking hallah.
> In the Torah, God commands that once we enter the Land of Israel, when we
> bake bread, we should separate off a small piece of the dough and put it
> aside. This is one of the three mitzvot that are considered specifically
> given to women.

> Not being the earthy type, I have never felt inclined to bake bread from
> scratch. With my bread maker, yes. With my husband (a pianist who loves to
> exercise his fingers by kneading) making the dough, and me just saying the
> blessing and breaking off a piece of dough, yes. But to take a ten-week
> course in the single mitzvah of separating hallah, no thanks.

> When a friend asked me why I wasn't taking the hallah course, I replied
> glibly that I'm all air signs, and I'm not the earthy, bread-baking type.

> My friend looked at me aghast. "Don't you know that all the blessings of
> physical abundance come down into the world through the performance of the
> mitzvah of taking hallah? The mitzvah also effects healing in 14 different
> ways."

> I enrolled in the course, wondering how there could be so much to say about
> a single mitzvah.

> "The mitzvah of hallah is cosmic in its effect," the teacher proclaimed.
> Every week my jaw dropped lower as she expatiated on the mystic
> ramifications of this one mitzvah.

> Then she announced that the following week a rabbi would be coming in to
> teach us about the mitzvah's specific requirements in Jewish law. This would
> take two hours.

> Two hours? I couldn't imagine how he could fill up two hours. And, of
> course, I already knew how to do the mitzvah.

> I went to the class anyway. I discovered that I had been doing the mitzvah
> wrong.

> The following week, our teacher announced, she would be demonstrating how to
> make hallah. I came prepared for a Pillsbury lesson that I didn't need
> because my husband has the world's best recipe for whole wheat hallah.

> The demonstration was a life-changing event.

> Now I make hallah once a month, and it's the spiritual highpoint of my
> month. I start by turning off the phone and announcing that no one is
> permitted into the kitchen until I've finished; this mitzvah requires total
> concentration.

> Then I give charity, so that all my prayers will be favorably accepted. Then
> I say a chapter of Psalms, to open up the gates of heaven.

> While sifting the flour, I sing, because joy is the foundation of all
> spiritual success. Then I add each ingredient consciously: sugar for the
> sweetness I hope to see in my family's life; yeast so that each member of
> my family will grow and expand; water represents Torah; when measuring salt,
> which represents rebuke, I fill two tablespoons, then shake some back into
> the salt container because we should always give less rebuke than we think
> we should; and as I slowly pour in the oil, I "anoint" each member of my
> family by name, praying for his or her specific needs.

> Kneading is the time to pray. My teenage daughter and I take turns, each of
> us thinking of people to pray for by name: single friends that they should
> get married; childless friends that they should have babies; sick people and
> terror victims that they should have a speedy and complete recovery; people
> struggling financially that they should have livelihood. My daughter reminds
> me to add the names of Israel's missing soldiers and of Jonathan Pollard. On
> and on we knead and pray, with such spiritual focus and intensity, that the
> kitchen becomes charged.

> Now the dough is ready to take the hallah, but the spiritual preparations to
> perform the mitzvah properly continue. Reading from a laminated sheet
> prepared and distributed by two Israeli sisters, I pray fervently that my
> performance of the mitzvah of hallah will repair the primeval sin of Eve.
> That just as she brought death into the world, I will bring life into the
> world, nullifying death, erasing the tears from every face.

> Now I am ready to perform the mitzvah. I break off a small piece of dough,
> recite the blessing over the mitzvah, and with both hands lift the piece of
> dough above my head and proclaim: "Behold, this is hallah!"

> My hands are quivering with the spiritual intensity of the moment. With my
> hands still raised, I utter two more prayers -- one that my taking hallah
> should be considered as if I had brought an offering in the Holy Temple,
> that it should atone for all my sins and be as if I am born anew, and the
> other for the complete and final redemption of the whole world.

> It has taken me over an hour to perform this one mitzvah. I feel exalted,
> tremulous, ecstatic as I used to feel after hours of meditation.
> The lack was not in the mitzvah. The lack was not in Judaism. The lack was
> in me.

> For 17 years, I sporadically (and incorrectly) performed the mitzvah of
> hallah, while having no idea of the profundity and spiritual potential of
> the mitzvah. I slid into second base, recited the blessing, broke off a
> piece of dough -- and felt nothing. It did not connect me to God, except on
> the most rudimentary level.

> The lack was not in the mitzvah. The lack was not in Judaism. The lack was
> in me.

> The mitzvot are an unparalleled spiritual feast. Most Jews have barely
> tasted their sumptuousness. Connoisseurs know the difference between eating
> and dining. The latter takes time -- and concentration on the taste of every
> bite. A connoisseur dining in a five-star restaurant will not complain at
> how long the food takes to prepare. Nor will he assess the quality of the
> restaurant by how full he feels when he leaves.

> Judaism is not a fast-food religion. Connecting to God through the mitzvot
> takes time, constant learning and a commitment to moving ever deeper.
> Greetings everyone--this list has been so quiet for so long.  I ahve great
> hopes in teh new year to participate more actively.  I surely do  miss the
> regular, lively conversations that were once part of this list. I owudl love
> to hear your thoughts and plans for hte holidays.

> Published: Sunday, August 31, 2003

> Sara Yoheved Rigler is a graduate of Brandeis University. Her
> spiritual journey took her to India and through fifteen years of teaching
> Vedanta philosophy and meditation. Since 1987, she has been practicing Torah
> Judaism. A writer, she resides in the Old City of Jerusalem with her husband
> and children. Her articles have appeared in: Jewish Women Speak about Jewish
> Matters, Chicken Soup for the Jewish Soul, and Heaven on Earth.

In the current issue of Kashrus Kurrents (available at
http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kkfall03.pdf
<http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kkfall03.pdf> ), there is a question and
answer section that includes the following question:

"On Shabbos, does an observant Jew have to close a website that is
selling products on-line?"

"Answer: Yes. As in the case of regular business transactions, no
electronic business transactions may be made on Shabbos or Yom Tov on
a web site belonging to a shomer shabbos businessman. The web site may
remain open for information purposes, if the shopping cart on the web
site is shut down. The time Shabbos and Yom Tov begins is determined by
the entrepreneur's geographic location."

[The article states that all answers are based on the psak of Rabbi
Moshe Heinemann.)

KT and K'vCT,
Aryeh

CS:
> The Maharsha in Chagiga (daf tes) asks: Why does the gemara mention
> only shacharis and arvis but not mincha? His answer is: If a person skips
> shacharis, the next opportunity to daven will be mincha (same day), and
> if a person skips arvis, the next opportunity to daven will be shacharis
> (same day), but if a person skips mincha, the next opportunity to daven
> will be arvis (next day),

till here correct.  note: these compensations are only in the case of
shogeg.

> so this is why one cannot compensate for a missed mincha (because
> we can't daven twice to compensate for a tefilla we skipped yesterday,
> only for one we skipped earlier today).

not true l'dina, nor is this what the Maharsha says. Rather, skipping
mincha b'shogeg cannot be fixed on the same day. Obviously, fixing
one's error on the same day is better than waiting till tomorrow.
Therefore the Gemara didn't mention mincha, though mincha has the same
din as the other tefillos.

> Here's the problem: The Maharsha opens by quoting the gemara, which
> cites Koheles that *something which is twisted cannot be fixed,* i.e. a
> tefilla skipped *b'mayzid* cannot be made up. So... why is the Maharsha
> now saying that a person *can* make up for a skipped shacharis or arvis
> but not mincha?

The Maharsha is explaining why skipping b'shogeg is not called twisted.

> If one can't make up for *any* tefilla skipped b'mayzid (per the gemara),
> why does it matter if it's the same day or the next day???

As explained above.

Ksiva v'chasima tova,
Shlomo Goldstein

On Wed, Sep 24, 2003 at 04:55:20PM +0300, Daniel Eidensohn wrote:
: One of R' Bulman's concerns in having his own community was to legitimize
: continued searching for both groups. To put the issue in a different
: context - do "real" talmidei chochimim spend significant time on internet
: discussion groups trying to clarify hashkofa issues? What would the
: average rosh yeshiva think of his talmidim discussing the issues found
: in this forum instead of learning gemora? They used to say that if R'
: Itzele Peterburgher hadn't wasted his time with mussar he would have
: been a much bigger gadol.

I'm reminded of the introduction to Mesilas Yesharim. It's gotten to the
point that only simple people think about the big issues. We even assume
that someone who talks about such things must be simple. A "bigger gadol"
is one who knows more din. Even if someone else might know the same amount,
but in aggadita -- and might actually live a more qadosh life!

On Wed, Sep 24, 2003 at 06:26:56PM +0200, Daniel Eidensohn wrote:
: We are in agreement that 1) at least up till the time of the early
: achronim there was a basic consensus concerning hashgocha protis. 2)
: the major chidush of the Besht concerns HP for non-man.

I disagree with #1. There were few, if anyone other than Nachum ish
Gam Zu, who held like the Besht later did. But there was significant
disagreement between them.

:> If I'm struggling with an inyan emunah, I can take it on two levels:
:> a theoretical discussion of one or various shitos, or an existential
:> discussion of how I find meaning in my life. Which existential answer I
:> come to in the latter role is similarly hard to modify by will. It will be
:> whichever I find plausible, whether the reason for my being at home with
:> the idea is philosophical argument or accident of educational history.

:> The theoretical discussion is not complete without the Besh"t's shitah;
:> and for most contemporary O Jews (including the majority of those
:> reading this live or off a web search), the existential question can't
:> be addressed at all if we neglect it.

: Are you saying that since the Besht's view exists no one can ignore it?

I tried to be clear.

It depends what question you're discussing.

There is a question of philosophy, of talmud Torah. For this, one really
can't explore any answer consistant with and derived from the Torah.

Then there is the existential question. Not "what does the Torah say?"
but "what does the Torah say to me?" In exploring and formulating one's
one emunah, only one answer is going to seem true. And exploring the
alternatives, while still talmud Torah, isn't going to serve in this role.

If the Rambam's position is the more mistabeir to you, then that's the
one that's going to color how to understand your world. The Besht's
shitah is what colors the personal hashkafos of most O Jews.

So, I tried to explain, mima nafshach:

1- Either you're learning the sugyah, and *all* shitos should be in scope.

2- Or, you're writing about one's personal beliefs in a forum where most
readers follow a different postulate. So there too, the Besht's position
is going to enter the discussion.

There is no issue of pseudo bas qol, or acharei rabim. It's just a simple
issue of how to maintain a dialogue. You can't ignore the posulates of
the majority of participants and still maintain a discussion with them.

: I assume you agree with me that there is a world of difference between
: these two positions. R' Bechhoffer seems to subscribe to the latter.

You're mistaken. Last Shabbos, RYGB rejected someone's appeal to having
a personal relationship with HQBH by recording all the tovos that come
your way for a coupld of weeks. His reason: But what about those of us
who hold like the Rambam and would not be zochim to total HP?

I /think/ RYGB isn't convinced one way or the other.

On Tue, Sep 23, 2003 at 10:41:49AM -0400, Mlevinmd@aol.com wrote:
: In terms of the discussion on hashgocho. Thereare two ways to understand
: the idea that it is in proportion to man's relationship to G-d. The
: first one is that there is a threshold under which there is no personal
: hashgocho; the other is that it is always in proportion to the degree of
: dveikus, and grows as one's level rises.....

Three, hashgachah is total; assistance is proportional. Oneshim are also
HP, after all.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             I slept and dreamt that life was joy.
micha@aishdas.org        I awoke and found that life was duty.
http://www.aishdas.org   I worked and, behold -- duty is joy.
Fax: (413) 403-9905                        - Rabindranath Tagore

Whoops! I misread a comment from R' Seth Mandel. I thought he was
claiming that Noach spoke the same language as we did at Matan Torah, and
I posted a rebuttal to it in Avodah 11:76. Actually, he did not say
definitively either way on that point, rather allowed for both
possibilities.

In one, he allowed that Noach's language might *not* have been the same:
<<< Had he given it to Noah exactly as it was given, Noah would have
probably understood it but thought its language to be a little funny: he
might have used other words that were more common in his time. >>>

And in the other, he allowed that maybe it *was*: <<< Even had Noah used
the same words in the same way as at Mattan Torah, and used the same
syntax,... >>>

My bad. Sorry. KVCT to all,
Akiva Miller

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At 03:38 AM 9/25/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>does anyone know the origin of the two common tefillin shel rosh knots,
>the so-called single daled and double daled? which communities used which
>and why?

>thanks,

>  --

Yekkes used to use the double daled, but are moving away from it (such as 
me) - I think there may be a piece in Shoroshei Minhag Ashkenaz (which is 
now 3 vol's!) on it.

YGB 

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