Avodah Mailing List

Volume 13 : Number 011

Sunday, April 25 2004

• musar
• bitul zman
• Re: Apocryphal Story
• Re: Shutefus and Demus haGuf
• R. Gershin and monogamy
• re: who is a posek
• Re: Heicha kedusha and informal minyanim
• How big of a deal is it if you miss an occasional minyan?
• cos shel eliyahu
• Re: Avodah V13 #9- apocryphal story
• Torah portion
• Amoraic hybrids of Tannaitic shitos
• chalav Yisraeil
• vhagiso yomam
• Re: musar
• Re: dateline
• Re: Shmurah Kitniyos
• Shutfus and Demus Hagu
• RE: Shutfus and Demus Hagu
• RE: vhagiso yomam
• Re: Limmud or Ma'aseh?: V'hogisoh Boh Yomom Voloiloh
• Re: 24/7
• RE: 24/7
• Re: Shmurah Kitniyos
• Yom HaShoah
• RE: 24/7
• RE: Shutfus and Demus Hagu

> And while "musar yeshvos" were established, you don't notice that any
> of them exist anymore so the voloshiners eventually won that ideological
> battle. but even the musar forces in 19th century didn't confuse their
> activities -- significant formal instructional/study hours during the
> day, external "actions", in some places, e.g novoradok, even communist
> style self-criticism sessions with "learning.

To some extent this is self-contradictory. You point out that even musar
yeshivot devoted most of their time to learning Talmud and then say they
don't exist today when in fact most yeshivot have masgichim that give
musar shmussen when the bachurim could be learning. So in fact Volozhin
did not win.

What in fact happened was some compromise in which in many yeshivot
musar is an important part of the curriculum. However, as pointed out
there are few if any yeshivot in which musar is the main emphasis. I can
check but am pretty sure that even in R. Wolbe's kollel the emphasis is
on straightforward learning.

Eli Turkel,  turkel@post.tau.ac.il on 4/22/2004
Department of Mathematics, Tel Aviv University

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 14:41:17 -0500, Avodah wrote:
> RSRH: You ask rhetorically whether RSRH might go to the circus -- I
> presume your point was the likely bitul time from learning (or
> perhaps a question of t'znius?). I don't know about the circus, though 
> it  wouldn't  surprise me as much as it seems it might you. But if 
> you'd phrased  it --  might RSRH have gone to a night of Schiller 
> poetry reading? I'd be more  confident the answer is yes.

In a similar vein there is a story that the Ponovizher (sp?) rav on a
visit to Miami went to see the local aquarium. He said that seeing all
of G-d's creatures was also important. (I assume he did have a gemara
while looking at the fish).

Eli Turkel,  turkel@post.tau.ac.il on 4/22/2004
Department of Mathematics, Tel Aviv University

From: JoshHoff@aol.com
> R. Avraham Danzig wrote a kitzur of Sefer Charedim,entitled Matzeves
> Moshe, so it does not seem likely that he would on principle have said
> that he is against the writing of kitzurim

RER:
>The above posting is rather puzzling.

> Matzeves Moshe, an appendix to the Chochmas Odom, is summary of the
> Dinim of Aveilus, dedicated to the memory of the author's son who died
> at a tender age.

> I don't seen any connection to Sefer Charedim.

Lchora he meant Zichru Toras Moshe by same author.

Shlomo Goldstein

> 2- You're lumping together people who recognize themselves as different
> faith communities.

wodenists and vitzliputzlists. so what?
/dw

> I recall that in the past when this has been discussed, we said
> something to that effect. That Rabbeinu Gershom felt that it 'looked 
> bad' for  the Jews when non-Jews have set a standard of only one wife, 
> while Jews  were allowing for multiple ones. He didn't want it to 
> appear that that non-Jews were being more moral than Jews were. It may 
> not exactly be chukos hagoyim, but it does seem to be taking a goyish 
> practice and instituting it for Jews.

However, this is speculation. We in fact have no records from R.
Gershon's time about any gezerot and contradictory lists from later
times. To the best of my knowledge this reason (or any reason) is not
brought down in rishonim.

Eli Turkel,  turkel@post.tau.ac.il on 4/22/2004
Department of Mathematics, Tel Aviv University

R' Raffy Davidovich asked <<< The who is a posek issue has been on my
mind for a while, with one specific context: ... Having researched the
issue, I have come to the solid conclusion of the [...], who held that
the determining factor is [...]. Do I have a halachic right to act in
accordance with my view should the issue come up ...?>>>

It *is* appropriate to call this a "posek issue", in the sense of "Can
I rely on myself or must I ask a posek?"

But I think that one can look at this from a whole different perspective
just as well, and call it a "shaalah issue". In other words, where is the
line drawn between the question which a person can decide for himself,
and those which he refers to a posek.

(I am working under the presumption that there are at least *some*
uestions which a person can decide for himself, based on having learned
the basic principles to a greater or lesser depth. For example, no one
brings every single object in his home to a posek for a ruling on its
muktzeh status, nor does one bring every single recipe in his cookbook
to a posek for a ruling on the bracha.)

Akiva Miller

> 1. Recommendation [to abolish chazaras hashatz] was because people were
> being mvazeh it

Which may be likely to happen at a wedding, like it or not. 

> If the takanah doesn't apply to such a minyan, then if they *had*
> said a full chazara, wouldn't it have been brachos lvatalos?

No. The way I see it is that the fact that the takanah doesn't apply
to such a minyan removes the chiyuv - but there is still a kiyum if a
chazaras hashatz is recited.

KT
Aryeh

Hi,

Ok, this is one of those questions with no hard and fast answer.....

But how big of a deal is it if you miss an occasional minyan?
I would define occasional as twice a year.

It is assumed that the person very regularly goes to shule and rarely
misses a minyan.

What I am referring to is the following situations:
The person has to stay late for an optional activity at work and will miss
mariv
The person wakes up, and really want to sleep longer.  Will miss shachris.
I think you get the drift. Bottom line: is missing an occasional minyan
so bad?

Any thoughts?

Thank you,
Avroham Yakov

R. Shalom Kohn wrote
> Our minhag is to distribute the wine from the cos shel eliyahu amongst
> the other glasses, for the fourth cos. Chassidic minhag -- what could
> be better than shirayim of Eliyahu Hanavi?

R. Jonathan Cohen asked -- And when is the cup poured in your minhag?

ANSWER: The regular minhag is to pour the wine before shefoch chamaska.
Our minhag is to do so after, and immediately before Hallel which is
said with the cos under either practice.

S.

Shalom L. Kohn

> R. Avraham Danzig wrote a kitzur of Sefer Charedim,entitled Matzeves
> >Moshe, so it does not seem likely that he would on principle have said
> >that he is against the writing of kitzurim

> The above posting is rather puzzling.

> Matzeves Moshe, an appendix to the Chochmas Odom, is summary of the
> Dinim of Aveilus, dedicated to the memory of the author's son who died
> at a tender age.

> I don't seen any connection to Sefer Charedim.

Sorry my nistake. I had Matzeves Moshe in mind because it is mentioned in
the introduction to the edition of the kitzur I was looking at. R.Danzig's
kitzur is simply called Kitzur Sefer Charedim.

<<Would a sign posted by some kohanim that reads "G-d Loves You" show
Hashem's chibah? Mah beinaihu?>>

If the sign was commissioned by the RbSh"O, yes. The m'ar ish veloyos
in the Beis Hamikdash were bichsav miyad Hashem alai hiskil, i.e.
commissioned as above.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

The Yad Malachi, under the heading AMORAIM, states that we find many
instances where Amoraim declare the halachah to be a compromise (p'shara)
of the opinions of two Tannaim, creating a halacha that would not be
agreed to by either Tanna. He says that one such instance appears in
perek Ra'ahu Bes Din (Rosh HaShonna). I haven't found it there, or
anywhere else. Can anyone cite any examples of this phenomenon?

He also says that this is demonstrated in the beginning of the sefer
Charash (I do think that's part of the title) B'er Mayyim Chayyim,
by the Pri Chadash. The B'er Mayyim Chayyim by the Pri Chadash is a
commentary located in the back of each mesechta, but evidently it's not
the same sefer, because I can't find any reference to the hybrid shita
concept in the comments on B'rachos. Again, can anyone help with specific
Gemora passages?

Zvi Lampel

One of our favorite topics! I came across a tshuva from R' Moshe(Y"D 2:31)
allowing a seeming bdieved double hagallah to "kasher" machinery from
Chalav hacompanies to chalav Yisrael. Does anyone know if present day
Chalav Yisrael is pasteurized in exclusive plants or do they utilize
this or some other method?

KT
Joel Rich

RMB on RMF:
> I would have said differently. They didn't reject as much as chose not
> to accept RCV's chiddush.

RC:
> I don't think RCV was the first to say it. See, for example, Sha'arei
> Tshuva 3:177

RAbbeinu Yona comments on bittul Torah. No one can argue that whatever
is ultimately defined as leitzanus, wasting time etc. is bittul Torah.

RCV's chiddush was that one needs a constant 24/7 limud Torah to maintain
the world. Therefore, all else must be subordinated towards satisfying
(maximally) this need.

RCV maximizes the definition of bittul Torah. Where is this claim found
in earlier sources is the question of RMF/RMB?

Shlomo Goldstein

On 22 Apr 2004 at 9:46, Eli Turkel wrote:
> To some extent this is self-contradictory. You point out that even
> musar yeshivot devoted most of their time to learning Talmud and then
> say they don't exist today when in fact most yeshivot have masgichim
> that give musar shmussen when the bachurim could be learning. So in
> fact Volozhin did not win.

 From what my son reports, those shmussen are relatively infrequent,
and it is the case in many Yeshivos that musar seder (usually at the
end of the long afternoon seder, before Ma'ariv or supper) is a time
when many of the boys wander around outside and do not feel compelled
to sit in the Beis Medrash.

 - Carl

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son, 
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much. 

> The question is why does the small part of Australia on the Israeli 
> side outweigh the rest except for reasons of convenience?

Because no part of the dateline can be closer to EY than 90 degrees;
i.e. if the new moon is visible in EY, which means that the molad was at
least 6 hours ago, there can be no place in the world where it's still
yesterday. The whole basis of the '90 degree' shita is the gemara in RH
about molad zaken, and the Baal Hamaor's and Kuzari's explanation of it.

> Again, all this is according to CI. According to Brisker Rav it seems 
> clear that Melbourne is on the other side as all that counts is 90 
> degrees east of Jerusalem.

Yes, but that's such a daat yachid that I've never even heard of anyone
being choshesh for it. Whereas the CI's opinion, despite being dismissed
by most people as a daat yachid, is taken seriously by at least some
people.

And then there are a whole bunch of other opinions.

-- 
Zev Sero
zev@sero.name

At 07:07 PM 4/21/2004, Yzkd@aol.com wrote:
>>An aspiring entrepreneur asked me what the halacha would be if he produced
>>"shmura kitniyos" (me'she'as ketzirah, baked within eighteen minutes of
>>water being added). Lichora lo tehei shifcha chamura me'gevirta?

>See S"A ADMH"Z 453:5 taken from the MG"A s"k 3.  (OTOH the Issur is also 
>on oils).

Took a look. To me it seems from the SAh"R there that it would be OK.

YGB 

How trinity is understood is not a trivial issue. I believe, and am aware
of at least one MO posek who paskened like that, that it makes a halachic
difference in regards to entering a house of worship etc. Another issue
altogether is that most Christian denominations are full of people who
have a very primitive understanding of their own religion. A bishop may
pass a statue and recognize that it is only a symbol but a washerwoman
will kiss it as an actual idol. They never cared for ideological
purity for the unsophisticated and take no care regarding this kind
of error. Therefore, I believe, that whatever the official line, all
churches, images etc are object of AZ because of those worshippers who
so consider them.

M. Levin

> of error. Therefore, I believe, that whatever the official line, all
> churches, images etc are object of AZ because of those worshippers who

You are confusing "christianity" and "catholicism", which is a subset
of christianity.

Statues are only present in Catholic churches.

And "trinity" is dealt with differently in various christian
denominations, as is the "divinity" of Jesus.

Akiva

> RCV's chiddush was that one needs a constant 24/7 limud 
> Torah to maintain the world. Therefore, all else must be 
> subordinated towards satisfying (maximally) this need.

In a way you are talking about two different things. One inyan is that
the world only stands on the fact that there are Jews learning Torah
24/7; there are a number of yeshivot/kollelim where bachurim learn all
night long so that Torah is being learned there 24/7.

The other inyan is how much of 24/7 is each Jew required to learn and
how much time can or should be spent doing other things, whether chesed
for others or relaxation [I gues you could call it chesed for yourself].

 --Rena 

> Can you explain your reasoning in saying,"If you spend hours a day
> learning Gemara and pick up Mesillas Yesharias light refreshment during
> recess, it's not limud Torah."?

> If the words of the MY are considered Torah, and he understands what
> he's reading, why is it not limud? Please elaborate.

Someone wrote to me privately, but I think I should answer on list

Someone ELSE had written that learning mussar is not learning Torah and
I wrote to argue that that depends on your madrega, what else you'd be
learning (or not learning) if you weren't learning mussar. Upon further
consideration, I have decided that for ALL people, learning mussar =
learning Torah. Especially if you're learning a classsic like Mesilas
Yesharim.

  Omer Day 19
 -Toby Katz

On Thu, 2004-04-22 at 19:01 -0400, Gershon Dubin wrote:
> In this discussion, an equivalence has been drawn between learning at the
> expense of doing a mitzva (she'efshar la'asos al yedei acheirim) and
> learning at the expense of attending circuses and ballgames.

the former seems to be the opinion of Abbaye (Berachot 35b - if my notes
are correct).  i.e. it's not an isolated philosophy.

"Regarding the dispute b/w the tannaim as to whether man should study as
well as work or only study, Abbaye felt that not everybody is capable
of spending his whole day involved in studying torah and said "Many did
like R' Yishamel (who worked for a living and studied in his spare time)
and succeeded and many did like R' Shimon Bar Yochai (who was constantly
immersed in torah) and did not succeed" (Ber. 35b)"

source: who's who in the talmud by Shulamis Frieman

> In this discussion, an equivalence has been drawn between learning at the
> expense of doing a mitzva (she'efshar la'asos al yedei acheirim) and
> learning at the expense of attending circuses and ballgames.
...
> Also, RSRH is not being "kashered" for the purposes of the discussion. 
> His presumed opposition to circuses
> was to show that even he would not have considered that TIDE.  I'm not
> sure that's correct, but it's not
> revisionist history that's being undertaken.

I think there is considerable revisionism above.  

I can't comment on RSRH directly, but in his communities, and in WEstern
European communities in the late nineteenth and 20th centuries, it
was common for the community, including the rabbanim, to go to popular
entertainment - such as opera, theater and the beach. (the rav of my
father's community in Europe, who came to America and was head of a
mesivta high school, complained to him in the 1950s that now people are
trying to assur all normal enjoyment - such as going to the opera and
going to the beach).

While one could argue for some differences between opera and the Ringling
Brothers circus (I understand that Rav Hutner was known for liking opera),
the notion of legitimate leisure time activity (such as playing chess) is
one that has strong roots and basis, even within the litvishe community.
It's the 24/7 approach - whether forbidding doing a mitzva rather than
learning, or forbidding leisure time activity - that can be argued is a
"hadash assur min hatora".

Meir Shinnar

In a message dated 4/23/04 12:27:46 PM EDT, rygb@aishdas.org writes:
> Took a look. To me it seems from the SAh"R there that it would be OK.

I now see that there are other Poskim that say it's OK, as well as some
that are Machmir, I am enclosing from the Piskei Tshuvos on this topic,
please point your browser to:

(I also want to add that the Ktzira might have to be before they are
completely ripe, and not made on Pessach).

Kol Tuv,
Yitzchok Zirkind

I'm looking at Orach Chayim 429:2 and see that what's not permitted
(Be'er haGolah gives the post-talmudic source as Messechet Sofrim and the
ROKEACH) during Chodesh Nissan are: hesped and taanit. There's no fasting
on Yom haShoah nor is there hesped as per the definition of the SHACH
in Yoreh Deah 344 s"k 1. Is saying kaddish a "hesped" ? Is saying KEL
MALEI RACHAMIM a "hesped" ? The only problem is the standing during the
siren and even that's not really Chukot haGoyim. So what's the problem??

[Email #2. -mi]

As a followup to my post: I see the Chok Yaakov (OC 429) does mention that
there is no hazkarat neshamot nor kaddish but that this seems relatively
recent (quotes Piskei Tosafot). But this seems to refer to the Tzidduk
haDin and kaddish at the cemetary, since we obviously say kaddish yatom
during daily tfilla all chodesh Nissan.

Josh

At 01:13 PM 4/23/2004, you wrote:
>I think there is considerable revisionism above.

>I can't comment on RSRH directly, but in his communities, and in WEstern
>European communities in the late nineteenth and 20th centuries, it
>was common for the community, including the rabbanim, to go to popular

>While one could argue for some differences between opera and the Ringling
>Brothers circus (I understand that Rav Hutner was known for liking opera),
>the notion of legitimate leisure time activity (such as playing chess) is
>one that has strong roots and basis...

As I have noted elsewhere, in the "Age of [my friend Marc] Shapiro" it has
become fashionable to attribute all sorts of proclivities to the SE zt"l.

Well, you cannot have it both ways.

SE (new edition OC 1:16):

pp. 41-42:
"V'af she'b'Ashkenaz rabbim me'od bein ha'yerei'im she'holchim
l'kontzertim [concerts] shel chol, efshar she'somchim b'zeh al shittas
HHR"M d'eino assur ellah b'mishteh o b'me she'ragil bo v'ka'mevu'ar
bO"C siman 560 ha'na"l vayai"sh baTur u'b'B"Y. Aval b'emes maskonas
haPoskom le'esor, v'im ein b'yadeinu limchos neged eileh she'holchim
l'kontzertim me'shum she'hu davae she'eino nishma b'eretz Ashkenaz,
ak"p ein lanu l'hattir bbhk"n."

p. 43:
"4. La'asos kontzertim chiloni'im [in a shul] assur b'kol ofen, v'al
ha'Rav limsor nafsho al zeh, v'shelo l'hattir b'shum ofen, v'afilu
tekupach parnasato al yidei zeh.

"5. Konztertim dati'im hu davar she'ein ru'ach Rabboseinu nochah heimenu
[!!!]. Aval b'makom machlokes efshar she'yesh makom l'hattir."

YGB

Akiva Atwood <akiva@atwood.co.il> wrote:
> And "trinity" is dealt with differently in various christian
> denominations, as is the "divinity" of Jesus.

IIUC, only Unitarians deny Jesus's divinity. In fact I heard there
is going to be a new Yeshiva where memebrs of LW Reform Judaism and
Unitarian Christianity will be able to teach their shared views of belief.

HM

*********************


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