Avodah Mailing List

Volume 20: Number 14

Tue, 17 Oct 2006

• 1. Re: YK Selichos [Shacharis, Musaf, Minchah]? (Mike Wiesenberg)
• 2. S'licha (Cantor Wolberg)
• 3. Re: Ushpizin and Sheva Berakhos (saul mashbaum)
• 4. YK Selichoth at Shacharith, Musaf and Minchah (David J Havin)
• 5. Re: Chazarta Hashas. (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Etrog jam and pesticides (Micha Berger)
• 7. What is the source for the minhag of Chasidim to have hakafos on Shmini Atzeres night? (Marty Bluke)
• 8. Pas Lechem (Rochel Weinstein)
• 9. Re: YK Selichos [Shacharis, Musaf, Minchah]? (Dovi Jacobs)
• 10. Chazarat hashatz (Yisrael Medad)
• 11. Re: [Areivim] Chazarta Hashas (Marty Bluke)
• 12. Re: Chazarat hashatz (Mike Miller)
• 13. Re: Pas Lechem (Daniel Eidensohn)
• 14. Re: Chazarat hashatz (Zev Sero)
• 15. Re: Etrog jam and pesticides (Moshe Feldman)

The Aruch HaShulchan says that the selichos were cut out of YK davening
bacause
people were more interested in long chazanus than saying selichos. He
decries the minhag.

Mike

<I don't know if this subject been brought up before, first of all, why
even

<in the "frumest" shuls are Selichos not recited during Shacharis, Musaf,
and
<Mincha, and second of all, why are they not printed in most Machzorim?
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Just realized what a foolish mistake I made in the last paragraph.  Choshech 
is NOT a palindrome. It is spelled chet, shin, chof.  I guess I was really 
in the "dark."  I have to learn how to spelll bettter.
S'licha.
ri
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Cantor Wolberg
  To: HAZZANET@SHAMASH.ORG
  Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 1:33 PM


  The following is a nice vort I found from "The Weekly Aliyot"

  Our sages tell us that you have to dig in the Torah and you will find 
truth. As an example, the final letters of the first three words of the 
Torah are the mixed up letters of the word Emes (True). Dig a little deeper, 
and the truth will be clearer: The final letters of the second through 
fourth words spells Emes in order.

  To that I would add: "All beginnings are difficult." (Mekhilta Yitro, 
"Bachodesh" 2)
  Once you are able to get past the beginning in the search for truth, the 
truth becomes clearer.

  Also, it's not until you see the whole word that you realize in the end, 
the truth has to emerge. If, God forbid, it doesn't emerge, then there will 
be tohu vavohu (desolation and waste) and v'choshech al p'nei t'hom; 
there'll be darkness to the depths of our souls.

  You might note that "choshech" is a palindrome in Hebrew (chof, shin, 
chof). "Darkness" is darkness, no matter which way you spell it. 

Here's something nice about the order of Ushpizin which puts Moshe 4th, Ahraron 5th, and Yosef 6th:
(This is not my minhag, but in the spirit of eilu v'eilu I am happy to have something nice to say for the "other side"):

Moshe Rabbenu's yahrtziet, 7 Adar, always falls on the same day of the week as the following 4th day of Succot.
Aharon HaKohen's yahrtzeit,    1 Av, always falls on the same day of the week as the following 5th day of Succot.


Saul Mashbaum

The R?delheim machzorim have a complete set of Selichoth for Shacharith,
Musaf and Mincha on Yom Kippur.

However, Yom Kippur is not sufficiently long to be able to say them all!
Rabbiner Hirsch would select each year which of the Selichoth were to be
recited at Shacharith, Musaf and Mincha.  Over the course of several years,
all of the Selichoth would thereby be read.  Three examples of these choices
appear in the ArtScroll biography of RSRH.

Rabbi Hamburger of Machon Moreshet Ashkenaz likewise chooses each year which
Selichoth are to be recited.

DJH

On Fri, Oct 13, 2006 at 12:13:56PM +0000, kennethgmiller@juno.com wrote:
: Regarding learning during chazaras hashatz, R' Joel Rich wrote:
:> A follow on question - it seems (correct me if I'm wrong)
:> that the universal minhag is that people (including rabbanim)
:> who wear tfillin on chol hamoed take them off during chazarat
:> hashatz and also prepare their 4 minim (even leaving the room
:> to get them) during the same time period. I wonder why there
:> is not a similar concern as above?

: My first reaction was to agree, "Well, sure, of course there should 
: be a similar concern...

A number of local shuls (including the three that said selichos during
all the tefilos of YK) do forewarn you that there will be time before
hallel tefillin and 4 minim. (As well as giving time before mussaf on
rosh chodesh.)

: But we can cite something which is entrenched even more deeply than 
: tefillin and lulav: Duchening. And on two distinct levels.

The kohein can not wash too early, as there would be hesech hada'as and
he would have to wash their hands again.

Tir'u beTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             May it be His Will that Yosef Shelomo b' Devorah
micha@aishdas.org        - among all our soldiers and all the residents of
http://www.aishdas.org   northern Israel - return home soon, healthy in
Fax: (270) 514-1507      spirit and body, to peace and security.

On Mon, Oct 16, 2006 at 04:48:32PM +0100, Rt Chana Luntz wrote:
: And if not why is it valid for use in the arba minim?  I thought that
: everybody held that one of the criteria for use of an esrog was that it
: must have a heter achila (see Sukkah 35a) due to the requirement of
: l'chem (see eg Rashi there)?  And yet I have never heard of anybody
: enquiring into the pesticide status of an esrog to determine its
: kashrus.  Why not?

Heter achilah, not ra'ui la'achilah. Maybe this a case where it's not
true where chamira saqanta mei'isura?

But the problem is that jelly is made from the esrog including the peel.
The meat of the esrog is not poisoned. For that matter, I don't even
know if the peel is, or if the problem is that the poison is /on/ the
peel and pragmatically can't be removed.

Tir'u beTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Nearly all men can stand adversity,
micha@aishdas.org        but if you want to test a man's character,
http://www.aishdas.org   give him power.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                      -Abraham Lincoln

The one source that I found is in the siddur of the Baal Hatanya where he
quotes it as a minhag vasikin. Anyone know of any other sources/reasons?
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Can anyone tell me where the inyon of pas lechem, or breakfast in general,
is discussed?  I would appreciate the mekor for any information you may
have. Thanks.
 
 
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See the Aruch HaShulchon siman 620 seif aleph (you can read it online of course). It is obvious to the AHS that it should be done (selichos in all 5 YK tefilos), and he blames it on the arichus of the chazzonim that it isn't done.

By the way, for sefardim, selichos is the central feature of YK. It is "Yom shel selichos" the fitting culmination of something that goes on for them ever since Rosh Chodesh Elul...

Dovi

 		
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>Not to nickpick, but we only need nine to avoid "karov l'bracha
>l'vatalah" (in the words of the Sh"A). The Sh"Tz counts as one.
>-- Mike Miller

But he can't answer amen.

-- 
Yisrael Medad
Shiloh
Mobile Post Efraim 44830
Israel
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I always wondered about this. RYBS holds that for chazaras hashatz you
should stand with your feet together because chazaras hashatz is the tefilla
of the tzibur. If so how can the cohanim and leviim go to wash their hands?
How can the cohanim go up to duchen? RYBS also held that on Rosh Hashan you
have to hear every word of the shatz to be yotze with the tekios on the
seder haberachos, again how does this fit in with going to wash the hands of
the cohanim (RYBS was a Levi as well)?
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On 10/17/06, Yisrael Medad <yisrael.medad@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Not to nickpick, but we only need nine to avoid "karov l'bracha
> >l'vatalah" (in the words of the Sh"A). The Sh"Tz counts as one.
>
> But he can't answer amen.

So? A minyan of 10 will always only have 9 answering.

-- Mike Miller
Ramat Bet Shemesh

 
> Can anyone tell me where the inyon of pas lechem, or breakfast in 
> general, is discussed?  I would appreciate the mekor for any 
> information you may have. Thanks.
>  
A computer search for Pas Shacharis produces numerous references - some 
of which are:

Tur O.H. 155
Be'er Haitev #155 in citation from Bach.
S.A. 155:2
Taz 155:1
Magen Avraham 155:3
Shaarei Tshuva #177 about the poor people who have it with raw vegetables
Mishna Berura 157:5 also cites Sukka 26 and Shabbos 10

Also look at Bava Kama 92b, Bava Metzia 107b


Daniel Eidensohn

Yisrael Medad wrote:
>  >Not to nickpick, but we only need nine to avoid "karov l'bracha
>  >l'vatalah" (in the words of the Sh"A). The Sh"Tz counts as one.
>  >-- Mike Miller
>  
> But he can't answer amen.

He doesn't need to.  The requirement is for *nine* answerers, not ten.
And RMM is right to point out that little word "karov"; if there are
not nine answerers it's not an actual beracha levatala, it's just
"close" to being one.  The nafka mina is that even if nobody answered
a beracha, the chazan doesn't have to repeat it.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

R'n Chana Luntz wrote:
<<I thought that
everybody held that one of the criteria for use of an esrog was that it
must have a heter achila (see Sukkah 35a) due to the requirement of
l'chem (see eg Rashi there)?  And yet I have never heard of anybody
enquiring into the pesticide status of an esrog to determine its
kashrus.  Why not?
>>

From Meorot HaDaf's weekly sheet:
<<With these points in mind, we turn our attention to the question of an
esrog kept under the
bed before Sukkos. Presumably, the esrog must not be eaten, due to the
spirit of impurity
that rested upon it, and therefore it is possul. However, some Poskim are
lenient,
explaining that our Gemara referred to esrogim that were subject to direct
Torah
prohibitions, such as orlah. An impure and therefore dangerous esrog is not
intrinsically
forbidden. It is just subject to external conditions that render it unfit to
be eaten.
Therefore the esrog is kosher for use (Marcheshes I, 20).

However, some Acharonim object to this reasoning. They insist that since
practically
speaking the esrog may not be eaten, it is not fit for the mitzva. The
technical reasons for
why it may not be eaten are irrelevant (Teshuvos Binyan Olam O.C. 33).
However, even they
agree that if one has no other esrog available, an esrog kept under the bed
may be used.
In such a case it is uncertain whether a beracha may be recited over it.

R' Yitzchak Elchonon Spektor (Teshuvos Ayin Yitzchak, O.C. 24) writes that
he had often been
asked this question by various Rabbonim. Therefore, he wrote a lengthy
response to deal
with all the proofs and counterproofs cited throughout Shas.

Firstly, he cites a proof from Rashi and Tosefos that the esrog may be used.
Later in our
masechta (48b), the Gemara states that wine or water left uncovered is
possul for use as a
libation offering on the Mizbei'ach. Rashi explains that when wine or water
is left
uncovered, there is a concern that a snake might have spat venom into it.
The venom
mixed in with the wine or water would then subtract from the minimum volume
requirement
of the libation. Tosefos on the other hand explains that it is disrespectful
to offer poisoned
food or drink as a korban on the Mizbei'ach. R' Yitzchak Elchonon notes that
korbanos
must be brought from things are kosher for us to eat (Pesachim 48a). Yet
neither Rashi nor
Tosefos make any objection to the fact that the wine or water may not be
eaten, due to the
danger of possible venom.

Therefore, we must conclude that although dangerous foods may not be eaten,
this does
not make them non-kosher per se. The same may be said of an esrog kept under
a bed.
Although its impurity makes it unsafe to eat, it is still kosher, and
therefore may be used
for the mitzva of lulav and esrog.
However, the Talmud Yerushalmi (Sukka 4:7) offers a third reason why water
or wine left
uncovered may not be offered on the Mizbei'ach. They are not considered
"liquids fit for
Israel." This seems to imply just the opposite. Since they are dangerous,
they are unfit for
our use. Therefore, they are also unfit for the Mizbei'ach. Similarly, an
esrog unfit for our
consumption would be unfit for the mitzva of lulav and esrog.

R' Yitzchak Elchonon concludes that since many Poskim hold that food kept
under a bed may be eaten b'dieved (especially raw foods), such an esrog may
be
used for the mitzva.

No harm befalls us for performing a mitzva: Many other prominent Poskim
also permitted using an esrog kept under a bed, each one offering his own
reasons to be lenient. The Sdei Chemed (Lamed, 141:31) cites the general
principle that, "Shomeir mitzva lo yada davar ra - no harm will befall a
person
for performing a mitzva" (Koheles 8:5). Had it been a mitzva to eat the
esrog, we
would eat it despite the dangers posed by its impurity, trusting that no
harm
would befall us for performing the mitzva. The Torah did not command us to
eat the esrog, but rather to shake it. Nevertheless, in regard to mitzva
observance, we consider the esrog to be edible.

The Sdei Chemed further advises that the esrog be rinsed three times in
water,
just as we wash our hands three times upon waking up, in order to remove the
impurity.

A mitzva-esrog is protected: The Minchas Yitzchak (57:5) writes that the
principle of "shomeir mitzva lo yada davar ra" applies only after the esrog
has
been set aside for use in the mitzva. Otherwise, it is just like any other
fruit,
and the impurity will rest upon it if it is left beneath a bed (see also
Teshuvos
V'Hanhagos, II 316).

Esrogim sprayed with pesticides: The sefer Kashrus Arbaas HaMinim (p. 73)
addresses a similar question, in regard to esrogim sprayed with dangerous
pesticides. In the previous case of the esrog kept under the bed, the esrog
itself was dangerous. In this case, the esrog itself is not dangerous.
Rather,
the pesticides that have seeped beneath its skin are poisonous, rendering
the
esrog inedible. Perhaps this can be compared to the case of a kosher esrog
that absorbed the taste of a forbidden food. The Magen Avraham (O.C. 649
s.k.
20) rules that le'chatchila such an esrog should not be used on the first
day, but
b'dieved if one has no other esrog available, he may use it even on the
first
day, and may even recite a beracha (see Shaar HaTzion ibid s.k. 48).

R' Shlomo Zalman Auerbach zt"l is quoted as saying that since the pesticides
will eventually wear off, and the esrog will become edible, perhaps even now
when it is inedible it is still kosher.
>>

BTW I do not learn daf yomi, but I do like this weekly sheet.  The (almost)
most recent one is available at
http://www.meorot.co.il/English/files/meorot_pdf.pdf 

Kol tuv,
Moshe 
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