Avodah Mailing List

Volume 22: Number 1

Sun, 03 Dec 2006

• 1. Re: Yaakov kissing Rachel (Zev Sero)
• 2. Sinai - Rambam - heard all or nothing? (Daniel Eidensohn)
• 3. (no subject) (Allen Gerstl)
• 4. Re: Yaakov kissing Rachel (Moshe Yehuda Gluck)
• 5. Yakov kissing Rachel (Mark Levin)
• 6. Re: [Areivim] Tsniut (Moshe Yehuda Gluck)
• 7. Prophecy and Parable, was: Re: Nevu'ah in Hebrew? (Zvi Lampel)
• 8. A Kiss is but a Kiss? (Yisrael Medad)
• 9. Walking in front of a mispallel (SBA)
• 10. Yaakov kissing Rachel (SBA)
• 11. Re: Walking in front of a mispallel (Alan Yaniger)
• 12. Fw: Yaakov kissing Rachel (SBA)
• 13. what kind of kiss (Goldmeier)

David Eisen wrote:

> BTW - according to Bereshit Raba, Yaaqov's kiss was indeed of an
> intimate nature, and it explains that Yaaqov cried after he noticed that
> the locals started to gossip among each other that this strange man from
> the west brought with him his licentious practices as these people from
> the east (the residents of Haran) have refrained from such wanton
> behaviour (gidru atzman min haerva) ever since Dor Hamabul!

This is inconsistent with Rashi's pshat on "betulah ve'ish lo yeda'ah".


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

Rambam in Moreh Nevuchim (2:33) states very clearly that at Sinai they 
heard a sound but did not hear any words. The first two commandments 
were attained by intellectual proofs - not prophecy. In contrast he says 
in Hilchos Yesodei HaTorah (8:1) that the validation of Moshe's prophecy 
was not from miracles but because they all heard Gd speaking to Moshe 
and they understood the words.
Thus Moreh Nevuchim says they heard no words while in Mishna Torah says 
they heard everything that Gd said to Moshe?!

The only attempt I have found to resolve this contradiction is from Rav 
Hutner (Pachad Yitzchok Shavuos 1:2) who mentions that the Sefer 
HaIkkarim had a different text of Hilchos Yesodei HaTorah.

Daniel Eidensohn

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 15:06:21 -0800 (PST)
R' Jeff Kaufman  <sterlingtouch@yahoo.com>
Wrote: Subject: [Avodah] Walking in front of a mispallel
                    .         .         .
3.In many shuls, Tzedakah is collected during Chazoras
HaShatz and the collector is constantly passing in
front of individuals who are still davening Shemona
Esrei. ...

For many years I davened during the week at the shul where the shamas (alav 
ha-shalom) would carry the shul's pusha among the mitpalelim during chazaret 
ha-shatz.  He would begin his collection procedure by louding shaking the 
pushka so as to announce the collection had begun. This greatly bothered me 
and I once in frustration after enduring this in silence for a long time, 
blurted out (but did not shout)  "ma zeh" . I was, of course, wrong to speak 
out during chazarat ha-shatz and I immediatley regretted my reaction, but  
pushkah  had been shaken one too many times for me.

KT
Eliyahu

> David Eisen wrote:
> 
> > BTW - according to Bereshit Raba, Yaaqov's kiss was indeed of an
> > intimate nature, and it explains that Yaaqov cried after he noticed that
> > the locals started to gossip among each other that this strange man from
> > the west brought with him his licentious practices as these people from
> > the east (the residents of Haran) have refrained from such wanton
> > behaviour (gidru atzman min haerva) ever since Dor Hamabul!
R' Zev Sero: 
> This is inconsistent with Rashi's pshat on "betulah ve'ish lo yeda'ah".

This is also inconsistent with what (IMHO) the Bereishis Rabbah (70:11-12)
says. In 70:11 it says that it was not a kiss of "tiflus" either because it
was a kiss of Perakim or a kiss of K'reivus (Ayin Eitz Yosef). Either way,
it wasn't the kiss of a man to a woman. In 70:12 the Medrash does indeed say
what R' Dovid Eisen quoted, but in light of 70:11 I think that it is more
appropriate to say that Ya'akov's kiss was NOT of an intimate nature, and it
was misinterpreted by the onlookers (who were, as R' ZS points out, not
unschooled in the ways of the world).  

KT,
MYG

When Yaakov first meets Rachel the first thing he does is kiss
: her and then he cries. What is the significance of this kiss? How was
: Yaakov allowed to do that?

  Of course, in today's Charedi society this could never happen, men and 
women
mingling and talking at the well??? There would be a mehadrin well with
different times for men and women or 2 separate mehadrin wells 1 for 
men and
1 for women so that they chas v'shalom shouldn't mingle.
  
 Comment: I think this is addressed by Ibn Ezra who points out the language "Yakov kissed  to Rachel", meaning he kissed her on her hand. Note AZ 17a: "'Ulla  on returning from college used tokiss his sister on the hand; some say, on the (upper) chest. He, then, contradicts himself. For 'Ulla said: Even mere approach is forbidden because we say to a Nazarite,  'Go, go ? round about; but do not approach 'the vineyard
   
  Robert  ALter points out in his Art of Biblical Narrative that the situaton of the well repeats in the Torah because the well would be tehhonly place where men adn women could meet. Othewise they were always separate.
  M. Levin
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R' Moshe Feldman:
> Are you agreeing with my psychologist acquaintance that there is
> always some subconscious sexual element to dressing attractively, and
> that the difference between attractive and seductive is whether the
> woman *intends* to use sex appeal in their dress?
> 
> In that case, habituation to one's surroundings can easily play a
> role: if a teenager's friends all dress in tight clothes, the teenager
> may view dressing in that way as simply dressing in a trendy way,
> rather than trying to be seductive.

No, I don't agree with your psychologist acquaintance. I think that Halacha
is concerned with the woman's conscious thought, and (as I pointed out in
that blog piece) that is the real challenge of tznius - to look accurately
and detachedly at one's self and to analyze whether one actually is dressed
seductively. There may be a subconscious sexual element to dressing
attractively, but there may not, and it will differ in each person (R' MB
pointed out on my blog that Dinei Tznius apply to men, as well) based on
their fashion sense and ability for honest introspection. 

I'm going out on a limb here, but I think that your hypothetical teenager,
who lives in a community where everyone dresses in tight clothes and is not
trying to be seductive is dressing tzniusly. Of course, once she crosses the
Howell/Lakewood border she is not (or B'nei Brak, etc.). I actually know
someone who travels between Lakewood and Flatbush often. She'll wear denim
in Flatbush, but not in Lakewood. I think this is praiseworthy.

So, although I disagree with your friend, I think that your delineation of
the difference between attractive and seductive is what I intended.

Question: Do the women on list have no opinion about this?

KT,
MYG

RMB on June 6 and 13, 2006 posed a contradiction about prophecy between the Rambam in his Mishneh Torah and his Moreh Nevuchim:

> Yesodei haTorah 7:2 tells us that "vekhulan keshemisnav'in... vetisha'eir hadei'ah penuyah lehavin mar shetir'eh..." All of them, when they prophecy, see things.

> Then we get to 7:3, and we see "hadevar'im shemodi'in lenavi bemar'eh hanevu'ah" -- the mar'eh we were just told was the medium of all nevu'ah -- "derekh mashal modi'in lo"["The things that they inform a prophet (sheh-modi?im l?navi) in a vision (mar?eh ha-nevuah)--by parable (derech mashal) they inform him; and immediately the interpetation of the parable would be engraved in his mind in the prophetic vision and he would what it is."--ZL] ... vekhen she'ar hanevi'im, yeish meihem omerin hamashel upisrono kemo eilu, veyeish meihem omerin hapisron bilvad" [some of the prophets say the mashal and its interpretation...and some say the interpretation alone"--ZL

> However in the Moreh, he speaks of mar'eh, of words spoken within the
> mar'eh, and of words (like those to the young Shemu'el) where the navi
> doesn't directly experience anything abnormal (Moreh II:42).

> Does his kelal in YhT mean "almost always"? How else to avoid the
> contradiction?

I attempted an answer,* but I?m afraid we both missed something important. As RMB half-heartedly speculated, the fact is that indeed, the first sentence in Moreh Nevuchim 2:43 reads:
"We have already explained in our writings [both KPH and (lehavdil) Pines refer us to our passage in Mishneh Torah, YhT 7:3)] that prophets /sometimes/ ["p?amim" --both in Ibn Tibbon and Kapach] prophesy in parables."
So there you have it. Although the key word "sometimes" does not appear in our editions of Mishneh Torah (and I assume never appeared in any), the Rambam makes it clear in Moreh Nevuchim that this is what he meant in his Mishneh Torah.
(So, sometimes the prophets see or speak in parables, but sometimes they see, hear and/or speak plainly. The Rambam does not delineate the manifestations of the latter in Mishneh Torah. [And I think this is because his goal there is only to give one example of how their prophecies may exhibit inferiority to those of Moses.)]But he does delineate them in the Moreh.)**
I don?t recall (FWthat?sW) another instance where the Moreh Nevuchim gives such a direct payrush on the Mishneh Torah. As a broader point, this sheds important light on the Rambam?s style. It implies that whenever the Rambam makes an unqualified statement without the modification of "all," he does not necessarily mean that what he says is so in an unqualified sense, but possibly as only "sometimes" so. This may bear critical ramifications regarding how we understand the Rambam on other subjects.
-------------------------



** RMB objected to my original answer on the grounds that "if the Yad meant that some nevu'os weren't derekh mashal, why would 7:3 conclude by explaining that "veyeish meihen omerin hapisron bilvad" -- that when we see text that doesn't mention the mashal, still "vekhulam bemashal vederekh chidah heim misnabe'im"? ...IOW, the insistence in the Yad that even when there is no mention of a metaphoric vision there still was one both voids RZL's ra'ayah, and seems to be at odds with the Moreh." I think the Moreh Nevuchim?s qualification answers this as well.

Zvi Lampel
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Further to the thread of discussion this past week regarding to propriety of
Yaakov kissing Rachel, may I point out that that act of kissing is not the
only one referred to in the Parsha.  Laban says to Yaakov, "and you didn't
permit me to kiss my sons and daughters" (31:28).  And a few chapters back,
Yitzhak says to Yaakov 27:26, "Come near now, and kiss me, my son." (27:26).

Now, the immediate reaction, I presume, would be well, a father kissing his
progeny is perfectly proper.  No one, I would hope, would think that there
was anything immoral in this.  In other words, even though other
possibilities exist, we don't go there in the simple reading of these
verses.  Even the problematic kiss between Jonathan and David - "and they
kissed one another, and they wept" (1 Samuel Chapter 20:41) - is explained
by Chazal in a non-sexual way.

Yet in this case, we immediately assume a problem in an unmarried man
kissing an unmarried girl.  Should we?  Could it not be that simply this
weas the cultural behavior and nothing more?  Are we anachronistically
applying different moral standards?

And just to round it off, there's another kiss this week, but in the
Haftara:
Hoshea 13:2:  'They that sacrifice men kiss calves.'
-- 
Yisrael Medad
Shiloh
Mobile Post Efraim 44830
Israel
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From: Sterling Touch <>
It seems to me that the Halacha that it is forbidden
to walk in front of someone that is davening Shemona
Esrei has practically been forgotten. 

1.Does anyone know how and when this happened?
2.What is the Limud Zichus for this?

Ayen sefer Minhag Yisroel Torah (Vol 1: p. 202) limudei zechus
beshem the Eshel Avrohom and the Daas Torah.

SBA

From: "Marty Bluke" <>
When Yaakov first meets Rachel the first thing he does is kiss her and then
he cries. What is the significance of this kiss? How was Yaakov allowed to
do that?
----
From: "Rich, Joel" <JRich@Segalco.com>
<http://www.ottmall.com/mj_ht_arch/v35/mj_v35i75.html#CAAD>  (80)
<http://www.ottmall.com/mj_ht_arch/v35/mj_v35i80.html#CABN>  (85)
<http://www.ottmall.com/mj_ht_arch/v35/mj_v35i85.html#CADE>

=========================
Let me repeat my post from those days:

Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 04:54:51 +1100
From: "SBA" <sba@blaze.net.au>
Subject: "vayyishaq yaakov lerachel"


From: "Markowitz, Chaim" <CMarkowitz@scor.com>
> Isn't there a medrash that Rochel was 4 or 5? If that's the case she
> wouldn't be a niddah and there should be no issur.

I didn't know of this Midrash - but thought up the following - based on
a similar idea.

(SBA 2006 edition - the Shaarei Aharon write sthat she was 5)

Q 1. Hayitochen Yaakov Ovinu kisses his cousin?

Q 2. Yaakov said Bitcho "Hak'tana" whilst later Lovon said Lo'seis
"Hatze'iro" lifnei hab'chiro. Why the different leshonos?

Q 3. Why did Yaakov - no 'yungermantchik' by now - agree to wait 7 years
before the wedding? Why not marry first and then work off his 7 years?

Q 4. 7 years later when Lovon cheated him with Leah, he married Rochel
a week later - this time (when he already had a wife and the possiblity
to have children) - there was no years of waiting. Why the different
arrangement now?

But if we accept that Rochel was a still a young child at the time -
'alles iz farentfered'.

1) Kissing your 5 year old cousin is no big deal (especially when you are
well past the pension age.)

2) At the time (when Yaakov as makming the'deal' with Lavan)
 she was a 'ketana' (only 5 years old) - 7 years later she was no longer a
'ketana' but  (still) ''hatze'iro'.

3) At the age of 5 she was simply too young to get married and

4) 7 years later - she was of a marriagable age and there was no need
to wait any longer.

(I realise that this little Q&A is so poshut that probably 'es shteyt')

SBA

(Admittedly if you follow the above links, you''ll find that not everyone
thinks that my pshetel is really that great...)
==========================

> Joel Rich
> PS- I never got an answer that resonated


As one of my rebbes used to say: 
("noch a mazel) az fun a kashe shtarbt men nisht..."

SBA

Take a look at Tzitz Eliezer 9:8. His limud zechut includes:

a) The issur is to disturb people's kavannah, and most people don't
have kavannah anyway. So you can rely on the rov and assume you're not
disturbing kavannah, particularly if there's "bal tishakzu" involved.

b) the issur might be only when the davener is in front of a wall, but
not in the middle of a room.

c) if it's a situation that someone stands where there's lots of
traffic, he can't claim the space as "his". It's similar to a grave
which causes danger to the public, which can be moved.

Alan

From: SBA sba@sba2.com

1) Kissing your 5 year old cousin is no big deal (especially when you are
well past the pension age.)
2) At the time (when Yaakov as makming the'deal' with Lavan)
she was a 'ketana' (only 5 years old) - 7 years later she was no longer a
'ketana' but (still) ''hatze'iro'.
>>

Off list comment:

The Ramban says on this pasuk that she was a ketanah that's may be why he
was allowed to kiss her.
Also the Bnei Yisoschor has a slightly chasidishe pshat about the kiss, that
when Yaakov saw Rochel, he saw a ''chefetz shel mitzvah'', ie,that he will
be able to be mekayem the mitzvah of "piryeh verivyeh" - thus when he
kissed her it was like kissing a sefer torah- and he was  kissing
 the ''chefzteh" of the mitzvah.  ayin shom.

SBA

Listening to a dvar Torah about Lavan kissing Yaakov and searching for hidden money/gems got me wondering. What type of kiss was it? Did Yaakov not care that Lavan was searching around in his mouth for gems? 
When I read the parsha, I always assumed it was an innocuous kiss on the cheek. I never realized the discrepeny that caused with rashis pshat of Lavan searching for gems. How did Lavan accomplish this search and did Yaakov not notice or take offense?

Rafi
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