Avodah Mailing List

Volume 22: Number 23

Sun, 31 Dec 2006

• 1. Chanukah--miracle of the oil vs. miracle of the victory (Moshe Feldman)
• 2. Re: Glatt Yosher? (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 3. Re: Glatt Yosher? (Zev Sero)
• 4. Re: Changing Havarah (Minden)
• 5. Re: Hisbonenus (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Glatt Yosher? (Michael Kopinsky)
• 7. Re: Al petach beito mabachutz (Michael Kopinsky)
• 8. Re: Al petach beito mabachutz (Michael Kopinsky)
• 9. Krias Shma (Michael Kopinsky)
• 10. Re: Glatt Yosher? (Michael Kopinsky)
• 11. Re: Glatt Yosher? (Moshe Yehuda Gluck)
• 12. Re: Changing Havarah (A & C Walters)
• 13. Re: Chanukah--miracle of the oil vs. miracle of the victory (A & C Walters)
• 14. Re: Glatt Yosher? (Jacob Farkas)
• 15. Re: Al petach beito mabachutz (Moshe Yehuda Gluck)
• 16. Glatt Kosher - Glatt Yosher (Prof. Levine)
• 17. Re: Al petach beito mabachutz (A & C Walters)
• 18. Chanukah--miracle of the oil vs. miracle of the victory (revised) (Moshe Feldman)

On 12/29/06, Zeliglaw@aol.com <Zeliglaw@aol.com> wrote on Areivim:
> I found it
> disturbing that DL youth are taught that the essence of Channukah was the
> military victory and the retention of national sovereignty( a conclusion
> that flies in the face of the fact this contention is itself the subject of
> a Machlokes Rishonim [Rambam and Ramban!]) and that the Nes Pach Shemen is
> "clouded in mystery" and known "only to Chazal' in a way that presents a
> "kochi votzem yadi" spin on the essential elements of the day.

I originally took your point of view, but now I'm convinced of the
other perspective.  The fact is that all early sources, including
Sefer Chashmonaim, Megillas Ta'anis and our text of Al HaNissim refer
just to the military victory and not to the nes pach ha'shemen.

Therefore, it is likely that so long as the Bais HaMikdash was extant,
the main aspect of the celebration was the military victory, which
allowed Jewish independence for a good number of years.  This does not
have be interpreted as kochi v'otzem yadi--rather we thank Hashem for
the vanquishing of rabim b'yad me'atim.  Once the Jews went into
galus, national independence became largely irrelevant (and according
to Rav Kook--a forgotten goal of the Jewish people), and the main
message became a spiritual one.

But think about it: in the Bais Hamikdash, every day there was a
miracle of oil in that according to the Gemara Shabbos 22b and Yoma
39a, every day oil put in the ner ma'aravi miraculously lasted 24
hours even though not enough oil was put in--and this was a sign that
the Shechina resided in Israel.  (This miracle lasted until the time
of Shimon HaTzadik.)  Why should there be a major celebration l'doros
just because once the oil lasted for 8 days?

Clearly, the point is that we are celebrating the Hasmonean victory
over the Greeks and the Hellenists.  The miracle of the oil shows us
that this wasn't a normal military victory but that it was Divinely
guided, and that Hashem showed us that, due to the religious revival
engendered by the Chashomaim, once again the Shechina resided in
Israel.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

Micha Berger asked:
> There is an obvious logistic problem -- the subject is a very
> politicized one, so that one group's definition of "social
> responsibility" isn't necessarily mine. However, assuming we
> overcome it by having groups from my own bent... Why aren't I
> as concerned with someone checking that my food is glatt yosher?

Personally, I'd like to think that I *do* have similar levels of 
concerns for both areas. But there's another logistic problem beside 
the one RMB asked. Namely, once we've determined which practices are 
and are not acceptable, how do we determine which companies are 
towing the line?

For example, suppose one of the things we're checking is to insure 
that workers are paid on time. How do you investigate such a thing? 
How can you be sure that the boss has not threatened the workers? 
("You better tell the mashgiach that I paid you today, or you'll be 
out of a job!") The Yosher inspector does not have the clout that a 
government inspector does.

Which brings me to what I suspect is the REAL answer to this question:

Namely, that in many countries, the government already checks on this 
kind of stuff, and they *do* have whistleblower laws which help 
insure that employees don't suffer retaliation. Sure, they could be 
improved on, but there's a law of diminishing returns here: Will the 
degree of improvement be worth the effort and expense?

Akiva Miller

Micha Berger wrote:

> To drift even further: Why is it mutar to own a stage without a maakah?

I think most such stages are less than 10 tefachim high.  (And I'm
talking RACN tefachim.)

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

R' Jonathan Baker wrote:
> the contemporary books all used havarah Sefaradit, and my grandparents had moved to Florida, so there was no continuity of tradition.  "Booreech Ahtoo...Eloikaini Meilech HoOilum"
That's how I should speak, if I really wanted the traditional pronunciation of my ancestors.  Note how the segol sounds sometimes like a tzere, sometimes like a segol - what are the rules for that?  But nobody would understand me in the modern world, where even Chasidim speak Sefaradit to communicate with the outside world, particularly with Israelis.

Ther rule is basically: When the syllable ends in segol -> ei, when it ends with a consonant after the segol -> e.

Of course, in more colloquial speech, every vowel that isn't stressed will be a central e, like the a in English 'central' (not 'centrahl'). In most formal leining, this rule is simplified to: *every* segol -> ei, *every* tzeire -> ai. The normal Galitzianer pronunciation sounds very natural to me, but this super-formal way sounds awkward ("meileich").

(About the misconception of what is Sefaradit, I wrote last week.)


ELPhM
http://lipmans.blogspot.com

On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 07:06:51PM -0400, Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer wrote:
: What jarred me recently in my current perusal of Nefesh HaChaim is how 
: much he is in sync with the Besht on tefillah...

I am particularly troubled by the NhC's (2:13) actually recommending
visualizing the words to the exclusion of paying attention to their
meaning. That we can not recreate all the meaning Anshei Kenesses
haGdolah put into the words, and therefore it's actually inferior to
read the words for their meaning.

Besides, how much of tefillah even dates back to the tannaim? As
mentioned recently, in the BHMQ, davening was Aseres hadiberos, Shema,
their berakhos and the Amidah. And even those we know were actually
solidified into fixed texts later.

So what are we talking about: topics of each of the berakhos of the
verious versions of the Amidah, and perhaps birkhos Shema, but not
actual content? How many words then is RCV discussing?

Gut Voch!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 Life is complex.
micha@aishdas.org                Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org               The Torah is complex.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                                - R' Binyamin Hecht

It's very possible that in this particular case, it is simply because
of ignorance, that people by default assume buildings are chayav
b'mezuzah, whereas maakah is not something people pay enough attention
to to realize that a 10-tefachim stage would be chayav.

On 12/29/06, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:

















> It's like the obvervation I made a while back on Areivim about shul
> architecture. Shuls are peturim from both mezuzah and maakah. Yet, most
> shuls
> have mezuzos. Think how many shuls you know have a duchan built like a stage
> -- no maakah. We think of Judaism in very rite-based terms: frumkeit, not
> ehrlachkeit.
>

RJB:
> I can't imagine hordes of goyim descending on a ghetto because someone lights a "lamp" outside their door.

Yes, but what about every Jew in the ghetto lighting a lamp, that the
goyim know full well is a reminder of that time we beat the goyim to a
pulp?

Is cold really a reason not to light outside?  I mean, we all bundle
up in our coats and manage to make it to the car, and then from the
parking lot to work - does it take that much more time to go outside,
place your already-prepared menorah in its box, and light the candles?
 I mean, cold can make it difficult, but sakanah?  This is not quite
like sleeping in the sukkah, where there exists a much more
significant concern.

(Unless, of course, you're saying that the neros won't light, or won't
last 30 minutes in the freezing cold.  If so, I stand corrected.)

In hilchos krias shma, the Shulchan Aruch and Rama, very atypically,
go into a lot of detail about kabbalistic practices - both the 248
words, and in the next siman (or a few later) the discussions of
kavana during krias shma, and lengthening of certain letters.  Why?

On 12/29/06, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:
> To drift even further: Why is it mutar to own a stage without a maakah?

Looking in Shulchan Aruch (CM 427) and Rambam (Hilchos Rotzeich v'Shmiras
Haguf 11), it doesn't seem that 10 tefachim is relevant for height of the
roof, only for height of the fence.  In s'if 4 (in SA) it says that the
mitzvah also requires you to protect against other dangers, such as wells
and pits, by covering them or putting a maakeh.  It seems from the lashon
there that the definition of dangerous is subjective, and the nos'ei
keilim bring halachos about owning dangerous dogs etc., and it does not
seem that a ma'akeh specifically is necessary.

R'MB:
> But I wasn't asking, I was being rhetorical. We have a community willing
> to
> put money out for chumros our fathers didn't consider ikkar hadin, but not
> to
> police ourselves financially.

Those A/A-ites who read R' HM's blog, saw that R' Y. Horowitz's new
anti-molestation organization will have regular audits and financial
oversight. Yeyasher Kochachem.

KT,
MYG

The Rabeinu Bechaye in parshas vayero says that someone who changes a komotz 
to a pasach could lead to kefira.

Even by the sefardim there was a difference (since I think RB was a sefardi) 
and k"v ashkenaizim

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See Pri Magodim Or"Ch 670 m"z s"k 3 that the milchomo was not a nes at all, 
and was entirely natural

> that this wasn't a normal military victory but that it was Divinely
> guided,

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R' Micha Berger wrote:

> Yes, glatt kosher or chalav yisrael are good examples. We can pretend 
> the iffy is mutar when it comes to mesayeih ledevar aveirah bein adam lachaveiro, 
> but we'll spend a fortune on chumros when it comes to kashrus. (Those of us who
> are bound by minhag to follow these chumros can find their own examples. They're rife.)
> 
> But I wasn't asking, I was being rhetorical. We have a community willing to
> put money out for chumros our fathers didn't consider ikkar hadin, but 
> not to police ourselves financially.

To be fair. Assume a scenario that you are certain that your standards 
have been compromised, be it in laws of Kashrus, Yashrus, or anything 
else of your value. Would you abstain from usage of said product or 
service? Many would, and Uvda d-El Al yokhiakh...

To use the argument of Rabbi Bechofer, that there is no market incentive 
for such a service, proves one of the following; 1) Ethical treatment of 
animals or workers are not important issues to the community at large, 
2) The leadership determines what issues are important to the community, 
and having ignored the aforementioned concerns, those in the community 
(even if it constitutes a majority) with these concerns are irrelevant.

It can be argued that the former is often true because of the latter. If 
so, the question is not of capitalism and market incentive, per se, it 
is why do some individuals view this issue as one of importance, and 
those in leadership don't?

The question at hand is not hypothetical. The company whose practices 
prompted the discussion has been accused of both Tza'ar Ba'alei Hayyim 
abuses and inadequate safety training that lead to serious accidents, as 
well as providing substandard wages and working conditions. Granted, 
setting a living wage in the context of Halakhah is not a simple task, 
but why is there no discussion?

Furthermore, why is Dina Demalkhusa not applicable, particularly if 
Hiyuvei Torah may be somewhat ambiguous on the matter, there is no 
contradiction to Din Torah, so why isn't Dina D'malkhusa binding?

--Jacob Farkas

> Micha Berger wrote:
> 
> > Where is it clear the sakanah they were describing is over?
R' Zev Sero: 
> Look around you.

I've been waiting for someone to bring this up, but no one has. Disclaimer:
I haven't been in EY for about 20 years, and I'm 27 :-) . 

I would think, that EY is more of a Sha'as HaSakanah, than, say, Lakewood,
because there are suicide bombers and terrorists in EY. I remember reading a
news report a while ago, in which the Israeli government detailed how many
terror plots they were able to stop before they came about. Putting a
Menorah by the door (or window) says to any "friendly" terrorist, "Jews live
here!" Just because the Israeli population is used to living under such
circumstances, doesn't mean it isn't a Sha'as haSakanah. In fact, a few
years ago, when relatives of mine wanted to move to EY, they were advised by
a Gadol not to. So why is the common practice reversed? In America we should
light outside, and in EY we should light inside?!

(I just thought of the blackouts the English used to make during WWII so
that the Luftwaffe shouldn't be able to locate targets. Now that's a Sha'as
Hasakanah L'chol Ha'dei'os!!)

KT,
MYG

Rav Dr. Yosef Breuer, ZT"L, wrote an essay about this topic. See 
http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2006/03/rav-breuer-glatt-kosher-glatt-yoshor_21.shtml.

Yitzchok Levine 

I wrote:
>> The fact that originally there was a din to light outside is
>> irrelevant; chazal were mevatel it

My source is Shu"t Dvar Yehoshua siman 40  (in sif koton 14 he writes: 
(translation is mine; original available on request) "after the sealing of 
the talmud which was beshas sakono, chazal were oyker the mitsvah of 
lighting outside, and someone who does light outside is not doing lfi the 
takonos chazal." In s"k 5 he writes "there is no difference between EY and 
Chu"l, because even in Chu"l we lived in ghettos away from the goyim" He 
concludes "anyone who lights outside is motzei laz on the gedoylei 
harishonim.

For a list of rishoinim that say:

(now, we all light inside)
Teshuvos haRashbo 540 and 541
Ritvo shabos 21b
tur, shu"O, ramo 671
Shalvei leket 185
orchos chaim hil' chanuka s"k 3 (or sif 103)
kol boy 44

(even though there is no sakono)
baal haitor hil' chanuka
oyhel moed derech rishon nsiv 5
tzfnes penes (rivan) chanuka perek 3 halocho 3

(the teretz of the cold weather)
oruch hashulchan 671

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On 12/29/06, Zeliglaw@aol.com <Zeliglaw@aol.com> wrote on Areivim:
> I found it
> disturbing that DL youth are taught that the essence of Channukah was the
> military victory and the retention of national sovereignty( a conclusion
> that flies in the face of the fact this contention is itself the subject of
> a Machlokes Rishonim [Rambam and Ramban!]) and that the Nes Pach Shemen is
> "clouded in mystery" and known "only to Chazal' in a way that presents a
> "kochi votzem yadi" spin on the essential elements of the day.

I originally took your point of view, but now I'm convinced of the
other perspective.  The fact is that all early sources, including
Books of Maccabees, Megillas Ta'anis and our text of Al HaNissim refer
just to the military victory and not to the nes pach ha'shemen.  (For
more on this, see David Berger's article at
http://hirhurim.blogspot.com/2006/11/human-initiative-and-divine-providence.html
and an article at
http://www.avakesh.com/2006/12/two_traditions_.html).

Therefore, it is likely that so long as the Bais HaMikdash was extant,
the main aspect of the celebration was the military victory, which
allowed Jewish independence for a good number of years.  This does not
have be interpreted as kochi v'otzem yadi--rather we thank Hashem for
the vanquishing of rabim b'yad me'atim.  Once the Jews went into
galus, national independence became largely irrelevant (and according
to Rav Kook--a largely forgotten goal of the Jewish people), and the main
message became a spiritual one.

But think about it: in the Bais Hamikdash, every day there was a
miracle of oil in that according to the Gemara Shabbos 22b and Yoma
39a, every day oil put in the ner ma'aravi miraculously lasted 24
hours even though not enough oil was put in--and this was a sign that
the Shechina resided in Israel.  (This miracle lasted until the time
of Shimon HaTzadik.)  Why should there be a major celebration l'doros
just because once the oil lasted for 8 days?

Clearly, the point is that we are celebrating the Hasmonean victory
over the Greeks and the Hellenists.  The miracle of the oil shows us
that this wasn't a normal military victory but that it was Divinely
guided, and that Hashem showed us that, due to the religious revival
engendered by the Chashomaim, once again the Shechina resided in
Israel.

Kol tuv,
Moshe


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