Avodah Mailing List

Volume 22: Number 24

Sun, 31 Dec 2006

• 1. The GRA (Rich, Joel)
• 2. Re: Chanukah--miracle of the oil vs. miracle of the victory (Moshe Feldman)
• 3. Re: The GRA (Daniel Eidensohn)
• 4. Re: Glatt Yosher? (David Cohen)
• 5. Re: Al petach beito mabachutz (Marty Bluke)
• 6. Re: Al petach beito mabachutz (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: Glatt Yosher? (Moshe Yehuda Gluck)
• 8. Re: Al petach beito mabachutz (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: Al petach beito mabachutz (A & C Walters)
• 10. Re: Chanukah--miracle of the oil vs. miracle of the victory (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Chanukah--miracle of the oil vs. miracle of the victory (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: Glatt Yosher? (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: Glatt Yosher? (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: Chanukah--miracle of the oil vs. miracle of the oil (Zvi Lampel)

I'm hoping someone with a good knowledge of halachik/minhagic history
can help me out.  I recall learning a long while ago (don't know where
don't know when) that the GRA's halachik positions were not accepted
except by his few "students" and that it was only later (e.g. since his
students were the ones who moved to E"Y his minhagim were established
there, so to within certain Yeshivot later on).

I was just listening to R' Reisman's Navi shiur and he used the GRA as
an example of how a generation followed its manhig.

Can anyone clarify

KT
Joel Rich
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I wrote:
> I originally took your point of view, but now I'm convinced of the
> other perspective.  The fact is that all early sources, including
> Sefer Chashmonaim, Megillas Ta'anis and our text of Al HaNissim refer
> just to the military victory and not to the nes pach ha'shemen.

Replace that paragraph with:
I originally took your point of view, but now I'm convinced of the
other perspective.  The fact is that all early sources, including
Books of Maccabees, Megillas Ta'anis and our text of Al HaNissim refer
just to the military victory and not to the nes pach ha'shemen.  (For
more on this, see David Berger's article at
http://hirhurim.blogspot.com/2006/11/human-initiative-and-divine-providence.html
and an article at
http://www.avakesh.com/2006/12/two_traditions_.html).

Kol tuv,
Moshe

Rich, Joel wrote:
>
> I'm hoping someone with a good knowledge of halachik/minhagic history 
> can help me out.  I recall learning a long while ago (don't know where 
> don't know when) that the GRA's halachik positions were not accepted 
> except by his few "students" and that it was only later (e.g. since 
> his students were the ones who moved to E"Y his minhagim were 
> established there, so to within certain Yeshivot later on).
>
> I was just listening to R' Reisman's Navi shiur and he used the GRA as 
> an example of how a generation followed its manhig.
>
>
Igros Moshe V #24.6 page 78. and YD IV 17.26 page 200 See also topic of 
Gra in Yad Moshe page 58
There is also the issue of berchas cohanim that the Gra unsuccessfully 
tried to reintroduce.


One of the goals of the Mishna Berura was to introduce the Gra's rulings 
into the mainstream

I don't know if anybody has brought this up on Areivim already (and if
so, the moderator can feel free to block this post), but there is an
organization here in Israel, B'Maagalei Tzedek, which does provide a
"yashrus" certification -- called the "tav chevrati" -- to
restaurants.

See http://www.tav.org.il/abouttav.asp

I think that this is a wonderful idea, and would love to see their
efforts succeed.  However, here is the difficulty:

When it comes to kashrus, we are concerned with the spiritual damage
(in the more mystical or more rational sense of the word, as you
prefer) that will come to us as individuals by eating non-kosher food,
so we will abide by a policy of eating only in certified-kosher
restaurants, even if there is only a very small selection of them.

When it comes to yashrus, on the other hand, while there may be an
argument to be made for individual spiritual damage being caused by
eating "non-yosher food," there's not the same kind of black-and-white
issur/heter issue, as the primary impact is on the societal level.
Thus, I suspect that many people would be willing to adopt a policy of
eating only in "yosher-certified" establishments if there were a large
enough selection of them that such a policy would not mean severely
restricting one's dining choices.  Only once a large number of people
adopted such a policy would it have substantial societal impact.

Unfortunately, this is a catch-22, since it is only if large numbers
of people adopt such a policy that large numbers of restaurants will
feel the economic pressure to "go yosher."

--D.C.

MYG wrote:
<I would think, that EY is more of a Sha'as HaSakanah, than, say, Lakewood,

The sakana that chazal were talking about was a sakana related to the
lighting of the menora not stam a sakana. Even if EY really is more
dangerous then Lakewood (a dubious assumption), lighting candles outside
does not increase your sakana one bit while in lakewood it may.
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A & C Walters wrote:
> I wrote:
>>> The fact that originally there was a din to light outside is
>>> irrelevant; chazal were mevatel it
> 
> My source is Shu"t Dvar Yehoshua

Who's he?

> "after the sealing of the talmud which was beshas sakono, chazal
> were oyker the mitsvah of lighting outside

What's his source for this assertion?


> For a list of rishoinim that say:
> (now, we all light inside)

Irrelevant.  That is descriptive, not prescriptive.


> (even though there is no sakono)
> baal haitor hil' chanuka
> oyhel moed derech rishon nsiv 5
> tzfnes penes (rivan) chanuka perek 3 halocho 3

Who are the last two?  AFAIK the Rivan who was Rashi's son-in-law
wrote commentaries on gemara (including the one that's published in
place of Rashi for Nazir), but not on halacha.  So this must be
a different Rivan.

Assuming that they do actually say this, do they give a reason,
or do they just say "nowadays we all light inside even though there
is no sakana"?




-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

R' Jacob Farkas:
> The question at hand is not hypothetical. The company whose practices
> prompted the discussion has been accused of both Tza'ar Ba'alei Hayyim
> abuses and inadequate safety training that lead to serious accidents, as
> well as providing substandard wages and working conditions. Granted,
> setting a living wage in the context of Halakhah is not a simple task,
> but why is there no discussion?

If I eat meat from a plant that doesn't pay its workers on time or
transgresses Tza'ar Baalei Chaim, the plant owner goes to Gehenom. If I eat
meat that isn't kosher, _I_ go to Gehenom. Hence, no discussion vis-?-vis
the plant owner's responsibility.

KT,
MYG

Michael Kopinsky wrote:
> Is cold really a reason not to light outside?  I mean, we all bundle
> up in our coats and manage to make it to the car, and then from the
> parking lot to work - does it take that much more time to go outside,
> place your already-prepared menorah in its box, and light the candles?
>  I mean, cold can make it difficult, but sakanah?  This is not quite
> like sleeping in the sukkah, where there exists a much more
> significant concern.

1. The "invention" of lighting in a glass box is fairly recent; it may not
have occured to anyone earlier.  In addition, glass was expensive, and
most people would not have been able to afford it.

2. While sitting with the nerot may not be formally a part of the mitzvah,
it's certainly part of hiddur mitzvah and common minhag, and an opportunity
for chinuch; the "experience" of yiddishkeit that RMB praises in another
context.  This would be lost if one bundled up, took the nerot outside
to light them, and then went back inside.  Or at least I'd feel that way.

3. Leaving nerot outdoors unattended may well be considered a sakana.
Even if the circumstances are such that it's not an actual sakana of
starting a fire, it could frighten the neighbours who don't realise how
safe it is, and that itself can be a sakana. (Cf the heter to put out
house fires on shabbat, for fear that the goyim will accuse us of
trying to burn the town.)

4. Leaving the menorah outdoors exposes it to a sakanah of being
stolen.  This wouldn't be enough to override a de'oraita, but it's
certainly enough to override a prat in the ideal way the rabanan
recommended that a mitzvah derabanan be practised.  Cf the heter to
put a mezuzah on the inside of the front door instead of outside,
if it's likely to be stolen.

5.  Since the default practise was to light indoors, even when the
sakanah ended people needed a reason to go outdoors, and would
accept any excuse not to.  The cold would have provided such an
excuse to keep the established practise.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

I wrote
> Shalvei leket 185

Thanks to RJ* who corrected the typo to Shibolei haleket.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Click for free info on IT degrees and make up to $150K/ year
http://tags.bluebottle.com/fc/KCuXzzVY9tIWgiFZmWsrhU8s8oIl6e/

On Sat, Dec 30, 2006 at 10:54:31PM +0200, Moshe Feldman wrote:
: I originally took your point of view, but now I'm convinced of the
: other perspective.  The fact is that all early sources, including
: Sefer Chashmonaim, Megillas Ta'anis and our text of Al HaNissim refer
: just to the military victory and not to the nes pach ha'shemen.

Actually, all three focus on Chanukas haBayis, as does the name of the
holiday. Barring some word-play on chanu k"h.

: Therefore, it is likely that so long as the Bais HaMikdash was extant,
: the main aspect of the celebration was the military victory, which
: allowed Jewish independence for a good number of years.  This does not
: have be interpreted as kochi v'otzem yadi--rather we thank Hashem for
: the vanquishing of rabim b'yad me'atim...

I would say for saving me'atim miyad rabim. I know that AhN says things
as you quote, but I'm stressing that we're celebrating our victory, not
their defeat.

Last May <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol17/v17n028.shtml#08> RJF
paraphrased the Meshekh Chokhmah on Shemos 12:16 d"h "uVayom haRishon
Miqra Qodesh vGo':

    ...That while other nations create a holiday and celebrate on the
    day their enemies fell, it is not like that with Yisrael, for they
    will not rejoce in the downfall of their enemies or celebrate a
    holiday for that purpose, as it says Binfol Oyivkha al Tismakh vGo'
    pen Yireh Hashem V'ra B'einav vGo'...
    ...And that is why on Hanukah the Holiday is celebrated for the
    miracle of the oil and the reinstallation of the services in the Beis
    HaMiqdash... and as the Military leaders were the kohanim, and to
    avoid the possibility of their attributing the military victory to
    their own strength rather than to divine providence, God performed
    a miracle in the Heikhal, an area that was limited to the Kohanim,
    so that they could clearly see his involvement in the miracles that
    transpired, that these were not of natural causes.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             A pious Jew is not one who worries about his fellow
micha@aishdas.org        man's soul and his own stomach; a pious Jew worries
http://www.aishdas.org   about his own soul and his fellow man's stomach.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rabbi Israel Salanter

On Sat, Dec 30, 2006 at 10:54:31PM +0200, Moshe Feldman wrote:
: I originally took your point of view, but now I'm convinced of the
: other perspective.  The fact is that all early sources, including
: Sefer Chashmonaim, Megillas Ta'anis and our text of Al HaNissim refer
: just to the military victory and not to the nes pach ha'shemen.

Actually, all three focus on Chanukas haBayis, as does the name of the
holiday. Barring some word-play on chanu k"h.

: Therefore, it is likely that so long as the Bais HaMikdash was extant,
: the main aspect of the celebration was the military victory, which
: allowed Jewish independence for a good number of years.  This does not
: have be interpreted as kochi v'otzem yadi--rather we thank Hashem for
: the vanquishing of rabim b'yad me'atim...

I would say for saving me'atim miyad rabim. I know that AhN says things
as you quote, but I'm stressing that we're celebrating our victory, not
their defeat.

Last May <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol17/v17n028.shtml#08> RJF
paraphrased the Meshekh Chokhmah on Shemos 12:16 d"h "uVayom haRishon
Miqra Qodesh vGo':

    ...That while other nations create a holiday and celebrate on the
    day their enemies fell, it is not like that with Yisrael, for they
    will not rejoce in the downfall of their enemies or celebrate a
    holiday for that purpose, as it says Binfol Oyivkha al Tismakh vGo'
    pen Yireh Hashem V'ra B'einav vGo'...
    ...And that is why on Hanukah the Holiday is celebrated for the
    miracle of the oil and the reinstallation of the services in the Beis
    HaMiqdash... and as the Military leaders were the kohanim, and to
    avoid the possibility of their attributing the military victory to
    their own strength rather than to divine providence, God performed
    a miracle in the Heikhal, an area that was limited to the Kohanim,
    so that they could clearly see his involvement in the miracles that
    transpired, that these were not of natural causes.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             A pious Jew is not one who worries about his fellow
micha@aishdas.org        man's soul and his own stomach; a pious Jew worries
http://www.aishdas.org   about his own soul and his fellow man's stomach.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rabbi Israel Salanter

On Sat, Dec 30, 2006 at 07:07:10PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
: Micha Berger wrote:
:> To drift even further: Why is it mutar to own a stage without a maakah?

: I think most such stages are less than 10 tefachim high.  (And I'm
: talking RACN tefachim.)

You think most stages are less than 3'4" high?

I think your impression of the metzi'us is off. Camp stages and stages
in shul "social halls" are often 4' or higher. Now, why don't they need
railings?

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Sun, Dec 31, 2006 at 01:34:20PM -0500, Moshe Yehuda Gluck wrote:
: If I eat meat from a plant that doesn't pay its workers on time or
: transgresses Tza'ar Baalei Chaim, the plant owner goes to Gehenom. If I eat
: meat that isn't kosher, _I_ go to Gehenom. Hence, no discussion vis-?-vis
: the plant owner's responsibility.

If we as a kehillah refused to buy from someone who didn't follow
choshein mishpat or caused tza'ar ba'alei chaim, he would have the
financial insentive to stop. As individuals, are we not mesayei'ah
lidevar aveirah by not participating in such boycotts?

BTW, it's very hard for a plant to violate tza'ar ba'alei chaim. It takes
very little benefit to people for tza'ar to be technically permissable.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Despair is the worst of ailments. No worries
micha@aishdas.org        are justified except: "Why am I so worried?"
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507      

Sun, 31 Dec 2006 from: "Moshe Feldman"  [mailto:moshe.feldman@gmail.com]moshe.feldman@gmail.com

...see David Berger's article at
 [http://hirhurim.blogspot.com/2006/11/human-initiative-and-divine-providence.html]
http://hirhurim.blogspot.com/2006/11/human-initiative-and-divine-providence.html

and an article at
 [http://www.avakesh.com/2006/12/two_traditions_.html] http://www.avakesh.com/2006/12/two_traditions_.html
).

Therefore, it is likely that so long as the Bais HaMikdash was extant,
the main aspect of the celebration was the military victory, which
allowed Jewish independence for a good number of years. This does not
have be interpreted as kochi v'otzem yadi--rather we thank Hashem for
the vanquishing of rabim b'yad me'atim. Once the Jews went into
galus, national independence became largely irrelevant (and according
to Rav Kook--a largely forgotten goal of the Jewish people), and the main
message became a spiritual one.

But think about it: in the Bais Hamikdash, every day there was a
miracle of oil in that according to the Gemara Shabbos 22b and Yoma
39a, every day oil put in the ner ma'aravi miraculously lasted 24
hours even though not enough oil was put in--and this was a sign that
the Shechina resided in Israel. (This miracle lasted until the time
of Shimon HaTzadik.) Why should there be a major celebration l'doros
just because once the oil lasted for 8 days?

Clearly, the point is that we are celebrating the Hasmonean victory
over the Greeks and the Hellenists. The miracle of the oil shows us
that this wasn't a normal military victory but that it was Divinely
guided, and that Hashem showed us that, due to the religious revival
engendered by the Chashomaim, once again the Shechina resided in
Israel.

Kol tuv,
Moshe


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