Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 6

Sun, 21 Jan 2007

• 1. daily halachot (Eli Turkel)
• 2. Re: zman hadloko erev Shabbos and motzoei Shabbos (T613K@aol.com)
• 3. Re: Prophet - mashgiach or godol hador? (T613K@aol.com)
• 4. Re: daily halachot (T613K@aol.com)
• 5. Re: zman hadloko erev Shabbos and motzoei Shabbos (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: ona'ah (was: daily halachot ) (Elazar M. Teitz)
• 7. Re: [Areivim] if they asked, it would have been assur (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: Prophet - mashgiach or godol hador? (David Riceman)
• 9. Re: Prophet - mashgiach or godol hador? (David Riceman)
• 10. Re: daily halachot (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 11. vehagita (Eli Turkel)
• 12. Re: yitgadal ve-yitgadash (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: VeHaGita - Proof....sources and quotes (Micha Berger)

As an introduction the rabbi has established a new organization called "ishe"
whose purpose is to make the average person and businessman more aware of
relatively little known halachot. He gave many examples and stressed that he
was less interested in the halacha than in the awareness. He has no problem
with someone using a kulah as long as he does it consciously and not because
of lack of knowledge. Since he gave many examples there was almost no time
for questions. I know little about Hennas but he said that the prohibition is
only if the cosmetic treatment is long lasting about 1/2 a year.
He has special seminars for specific industries. His general course consists of
six lectures
1. home actvities and family trips
2. money matters
3. education
4. education
5. personal health both in good and bad health
6. construction and renovations

Micha wrote"
How could it be, since the box is nowhere near 1/6 the total weight? The
market is allowed to vary by that much.

I stepped into the bakery this morning and watched. The workers consistantly
put the box (paper or plastic shell) on a digital scale and then hit the
"tare" button to re-zero it. "

I believe that 1/6 is only for undoing the sale but any conscious overcharge is
prohibited.
In Israel I have never seen digital scales with them being zeroed out after the
package is put on. Obviously he would welcome such an innovation.

:5. Punishments in school have to fit halachic guidelines

I don't see a chiddush here, everything else in life does too. Did he offer
examples?"

While you dont see achidush my experience is that few principals use
halachic guidelines.
The case he gave involved his son who was punished for not showing up for
a work assignment. He claimed that he was assigned two days before and normally
there is a 4-5 day interval. The principal said he should have looked anyway.
They did not a study and it turns out that this was the first time
that there had
been a 2 day interval between assignments. The rabbi told the principal that
according to halacha one does not have to check for unusual events and
cannot be punished for it.

I remember a story with my own son who was punished for not reporting some
misdeeds of other students and refusing to tell the principal who did them.
I went to a big fight that training students to be a "moser" is against halacha
and horrible education.

kol tuv


-- 
Eli Turkel

 
 
From: Zev Sero <zev@sero.name>
> Certainly, it would seem  that that is the moment the date changes.  I 
> don't know what the  metzius is during the six-month night. [--REMT]

>>The exact  opposite.  The sun begins to rise, but never quite makes it
over the  horizon.  Noon is its high point, when it comes closest to
the horizon,  so that is when we must count a notional sunrise and sunset
and change the  date, just as we do in summer at midnight.<<  [--RZS]

>>>>>
.
I can imagine how one would know when the sun has reached its highest  point 
in the sky for the day when the sun is actually in the sky, but how on  earth 
would one know when the sun had come closest to the horizon on a day in  
winter when the sun never actually peeked over the horizon and was never visible  
in the sky?!






--Toby  Katz
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From: R' Daniel Eidensohn:
 
 
> We are faced with the problem of what the Rambam meant by the  prophet's 
> beis din. <snip> I'll stick with my view that the  Rambam is describing the 
> links in teaching Oral Torah and was not  describing Sanhedrin at all. 
> However there doesn't seem to be any hard  data which would resolve our 
> disagreement.
 
 


From: R' David Riceman:  


>>See H. Issurei Biah 22:3 "gazar David ubeith dino ..."  <<


.
>>>>>
I understood that to mean "the bais din of his time" -- the bais din that  
was around when he was making decrees (as a king can) and asking the bais din  
for their approbation.



--Toby  Katz
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R' Eli Turkel wrote: 
 
>>: Seems strange to me that paying any worker in advance is less  of a mitzva
: then paying at the end because he is not legally required to  pay in 
advance.<<
 

RMB wrote:   

>>Me too. More so, paying up front means that you have less  chance to forget 
to
pay. <<
 
.
>>>>
This exchange made me think of a question.  Today (Sunday -- "Shabbos  Sheini 
shel galuyos" as the joke has it), someone put in a new timer for me and  I 
paid him right away -- with a check.  Not it occurs to me that he can't  
deposit the check until tomorrow, so is that considered payment?  
 
 
 

>>: 4. Putting on a long lasting cosmetic treatment might violate  the
: prohibition of tatooing.<<

>>... according to  Ashkenazim it would be assur as nir'eh kekesoves kaakah, 
not
the de'Oraisa  itself. We discussed this last June. Obviously kehillos which
have the minhag  of having a Henna disagree.<<
 
.
>>>>>
I don't remember the June discussion but this does sound strange to  me.  The 
whole advantage of "Shabbos lipstick" is that you put it on before  Shabbos 
and it lasts until Shabbos is over, or most of the day anyway.   This is the 
first time I've heard that anyone forbids that!  (Except  for the June thread, 
which seems to have gone down the memory hole  completely.)  Ashkenazi women 
put long-lasting lipstick on all the  time.





--Toby  Katz
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T613K@aol.com wrote:
> From: Zev Sero <zev@sero.name>
>  > Certainly, it would seem that that is the moment the date changes.  I
>  > don't know what the metzius is during the six-month night. [--REMT]
> 
>  >>The exact opposite.  The sun begins to rise, but never quite makes it
> over the horizon.  Noon is its high point, when it comes closest to
> the horizon, so that is when we must count a notional sunrise and sunset
> and change the date, just as we do in summer at midnight.<< [--RZS]
> 
>  >>>>>
> .
> I can imagine how one would know when the sun has reached its highest 
> point in the sky for the day when the sun is actually in the sky, but 
> how on earth would one know when the sun had come closest to the horizon 
> on a day in winter when the sun never actually peeked over the horizon 
> and was never visible in the sky?!

By looking at the clock?  The sun comes closest to rising at noon (which
is a known number of minutes before or after 12:00, depending on the date
but not ones location).  Or, before clocks were invented, by observing
that it's stopped getting lighter, and started getting darker, which
means the sun has passed its zenith for the day; better still, someone
living in those regions without a clock is likely to develop a sense
for how light he can expect it to get at that time of year, and when
it gets that light he knows that it's noon.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

<<He said that the custom in bakeries (though I find it in many 
stores) is that when there are many baked goods they are put into a 
cardboard basket and then weighted. Thus one is paying for the 
cardboard but at a price that is determined by the inside products 
(in Israel he estimated between 1 and 2 1/2 shekel). He claims that 
this is onaah from the Torah....>>

<How could it be, since the box is nowhere near 1/6 the total weight? 
The market is allowed to vary by that much. One might find other 
issurim, since the person leaves the store thinking he bought more 
than he did. But I don't understand how ona'as mamon applies.>

 
     Bava Metzia 56b: "Kol davar sheb'mida v'sheb'mishkal 
v'sheb'minyan afilu pachos mik'dei ona'ah chozeir."

EMT

Moshe Yehuda Gluck wrote:
> R? SZN posted (on Areivim) this link, 
> http://www.cjnews.com/viewarticle.asp?id=11008 and assumes, in his 
> caption, that it would be assur. Would it really be? The only thing 
> stated in this article is that the subject took female hormones. I 
> highly doubt that this comes under the letter of the letter of the law 
> of Lo Silbash (although, I agree that it would be included in the 
> spirit).

Sirus is an issur deoraisa.  Even chemical sirus is assur for a male.
And though the article doesn't say so explicitly, it's pretty clear
that the hormone regime is a prelude for surgery.  The only heter I
can think of is medical necessity.  Even if it's not actual pikuach
nefesh, because, e.g., he could have been restrained and prevented
from doing anything to himself, that's not a life.  And even if his
distress wasn't so severe that he'd actually do something to himself,
if it was severe enough to subject himself to this, and to persuade
his doctors to go along with it (which AIUI isn't easy), then surely
it's enough to permit transgressing a lav.

At any rate, mutar or assur, now it's done.


> Also, mah dino? Rambam (Hilchos Nashim 2) discusses the various 
> simanim, if these are all surgically or chemically induced does it 
> halachically change one?s gender? And, Lu Y?tzu?yer that Surgeons manage 
> to have a (?former?) man give birth ? do we say Banim harey hein 
> k?simanim? Comments?

The Tzitz Eliezer paskens that the person is now a woman, and if she
hadn't given her wife a get earlier, she wouldn't need one now,
because she's no longer an eshet ish.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

From: <T613K@aol.com>
<me>
>>>See H. Issurei Biah 22:3 "gazar David ubeith dino ..."  <<
<RTK>
> I understood that to mean "the bais din of his time" -- the bais din that
> was around when he was making decrees (as a king can) and asking the bais 
> din
> for their approbation.

The gemara which is the source of this doesn't mention David explicitly.  If 
my memory is correct it says "b'oso sha'ah gazru ...."  The Rambam certainly 
could have cited the gemara word for word.  That he deliberately changed the 
wording implies (to me at least) that he thought that David was the 
prominent actor, i.e. the Av Beis Din.

David Riceman 

I just wanted to add a point to a previous post.  According to the Rambam 
(for an opposing opinion see Ramach's hasagah on H. Sanhedrin 2:4-5) there 
are two issurim associated with a king sitting in a court: a king who is not 
of the Davidic line may not act as a judge at all, and a king of the Davidic 
line may not act as a member of the Sanhedrin.  The gemara says that the 
former was a decree enacted at the time of the Hasmonean dynasty, and 
deduces the latter from a pasuk, implying that it is d'oraysa.

But according to the Rambam (H. Mamrim 2:1) Sanhedrin can redefine Biblical 
law, so even an issur d'oraysa can have a date when it began.  It is 
possible that the Rambam held that even though there is now an issur 
d'oraysa of a king sitting in a Sanhedrin, that issur did not exist at the 
time of David and Solomon (H. Eiruvin 1:2).

David Riceman 

> He quoted from Rav Zilberstein that when one enters a
> sherut in Israel (taxi with many passengers going to one
> place) one usually pays up front. ... Seems strange to
> me that paying any worker in advance is less of a mitzva
> than paying at the end becuase he is not legally required
> to pay in advance.

If I'm understanding this correctly, the problem is that by paying in 
advance, he never had any debt with which he might do the mitzva of 
paying on time.

However, it seems to me that there might be other mitzvos involved: 
By paying in advance, he does a great chesed to the driver, who can 
rest easy and not worry if this passenger might be among the few who 
try to avoid paying. If this driver has had bad experiences with such 
passengers in the past, paying in advance would be a Kiddush HaShem 
as well, I suppose.

Another factor could be the fear that if he doesn't pay the driver 
now, he might forget to pay him later, or for some reason lose the 
opportunity to pay him.

Whether these considerations (and possibly others) might outweigh the 
lost mitzva of paying on time, is another discussion.

Akiva Miller

ShA, YD 246:1 (in fact, the very 1st seef of Hilchos Talmud Torah)
 in the Rema:
"UBESHAAS HADECHAK afilu lo kara rak KS shachris ve'arvis 'lo yomishu
mipicho' korinen lei..">>

Let us go back to the original source.
The Gemara in Nedarim 8a says that someone who swears not to learn
a mishna is required to keep the neder and it is not considered "mushba
ve-omed me-har sinai" because one is only required to say kriat shema.

The rishonim struggle with this gemara. The Ran explains that talmud torah
all day is a mitzva. However "mushba ve-omed me-har sinai" only applies to
mitzvot explicit in the Torah. The Radvaz (3:416) disagrees and brings many
rishonim including Rabbenu Yona and Rosh & Rashba who state that Talmud Torah
beyond Kriat Shema is "reshut".

So according to these rishonim learning beyond Kriyat Shema is a mitzvat Aseh
and one should certainly do whatever possible but there is no din of ve-hagita
beyond kriyat shema

The Steipler (Berachot) (no left wing radical) comes up with a major
chiddush that for Charity (or gemillat chesed) one who is unable to
give is not "anus" but is "not chayav"
since tzeddaka has no minimum but is only a percentage.
Similarly one who is busy with making a living or other mitzvot is not "anus"
but is "not chayav". Hence, he explains why the gemara gives rules when one
can stop learning and do a mitzvah rather than just applying the rule
"ha-osek be-mitzvah patur me-hamitzvah". Since the minimum is only kriat shema
once one does a mitzvah instead (under the conditions allowed) he is simply
not chayav at that time in talmud Torah.

Hence, according to all these shitot learning Torah applies only when one
is not occupied with other necessities. The Ramah is saying that these
necessities
should not take up the entire day except beshaat hadchak. Even in the
case of other responsibilities one is required to have set hours for
learning and
not rely on the kriyat shema.

see also bet halevi Shemot 24:7 for a discussion of the mitzvat aseh to learn

-- 
Eli Turkel

On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 11:55:47AM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
: For an intersting and fairly exhaustive discussion of the
: first two words of kaddish, see
: http://seforim.blogspot.com/2007/01/perils-of-ignoring-precedent.html

Written like a historian. He never spells out what the "perils" are.
Veering from critical editions is not perilous, it's how halakhah
evolves. The question is whether the kavanah added by the reference
to the pasuq in Yechezqeil justifies such evolution.

Unless one can specify a real cost, I don't see the problem he wants us
to avoid.

The idea that "yisgadeil veyisqadeish" was the practice of the Gra
was accepted by the Mishnah Berurah. Which is actually more relevant
than who among people who we usually do not attribute such authority
was the first to suggest it.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             When memories exceed dreams,
micha@aishdas.org        The end is near.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - Rav Moshe Sherer
Fax: (270) 514-1507      

On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 02:44:24PM +0200, Daniel Eidensohn wrote:
: He says that in fact there are two separate mitzvos of Torah study 1) To 
: learn all of the written and oral Torah 2) to learn twice a day...

3) To know what to do and how to live.

: There is further discussion of this Igros Moshe YD IV #36.8 page 229 and 
: #36.15 p233  He say that even one who learns regularly - but it is not 
: his prime focus in life - is not called a ben Torah.

Nu, so he'll have to go to shamayim as a ba'al chessed. IOW, is being a
"ben Torah" the sole ideal he should choose (Hobbes' choice) among?

The Rama's she'as hadechaq is necessary whether the person is neglecting
the possibility of kol hamarbeh or if he is relying on a bedi'eved. I
would want to see someone drill into the difference between a true
bedi'eved and something that is non-ideal but yotzei zain. Because I
could see choosing the latter for the sake of another mitzvah, whereas
one can't decide lechat-chilah to be yotzei bedi'eved.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             When faced, with a decision, ask yourself,
micha@aishdas.org        "How would I decide if it were Ne'ilah now,
http://www.aishdas.org   at the closing moments of Yom Kippur?"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter


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