Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 18

Tue, 13 Feb 2007

• 1. Re: Social responsibility, halacha and psak (Zeliglaw@aol.com)
• 2. Moshe Rabbenu's Punishment Amalek (Meir Rabi)
• 3. Re: Social responsibility, halacha and psak (Zeliglaw@aol.com)
• 4. Re: Tzinius and the ILG (Shmuel Weidberg)
• 5. Re: Copyright redux (Jacob Farkas)
• 6. switching with a chiloni (Eli Turkel)
• 7. Re: switching with a chiloni (Meir Shinnar)
• 8. Re: Tzinius and the ILG (Daniel Israel)
• 9. Re: Copyright redux (Daniel Israel)
• 10. Re: Tzinius and the ILG (Daniel Israel)
• 11. Amalek (Yisrael Medad)
• 12. Re: Copyright redux (A & C Walters)

 
In a message dated 2/12/2007 12:48:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,  
avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org writes:

He then  adds - that he disagrees - that it is better that one tries to
keep an  intact shabbat with one's family even if shabbat is hutra -
and therefore  avoid call.

My sense is that this is actually a quite radical position  - which
reflects the reality and comfort of depending on others to  fulfill
vital functions - and therefore reflects ways in which current  reality
seep into all aspects of psak.



FWIW, R A Z Weiss is a prominent ( Charedi) Posek and Talmidie Chacham  whose 
shiur in Ramot Gimmel attracts a huge breadth of various hashkafos among  
those attend the same. I highly recommend R A Z Weiss's many seforiim to anyone  
interested in a wonderful discussion of the halachic issues implicated therein 
 via s jumping off from the Parsha ,etc.
 
As far as the issue raised, one raise the following issue vis a vis whether  
one should have a "Shomer Shabbos residency" or not or whether one should 
enter  a profession if it will entail Chillul Shabbos on a regular basis IIRC, 
this  issue has been discussed , etc among RIETS's RY with differing 
views-depending  on the quality of the residency, whether one should lchatchilah enter a  
profession or branch of medicine  where Chullul Shabbos on a regular basis  
will be part of one's family life.. Why is insisting upon on's civil  liberties 
and rights which are constitutionally guaranteed, at least in the US,  "a  
quite radical position" ? 
 
Steve Brizel
_Zeliglaw@aol.com_ (mailto:Zeliglaw@aol.com) 
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Moshe Rabbenu was punished, became weak and had to sit down and have his
arms supported because he had delegated the battle to Yehoshua. What should
he have done? The event provided BNY with a remarkable illustration of the
power of Tefillah. Was that to be substituted for MR leading the Jews in
war? 

 

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In a message dated 2/12/2007 12:48:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,  
avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org writes:

At the  end, he brings the question whehter someone who has on  call
responsibilities should either try to switch his call with some  one
else, or, recognizing that he will be more diligent, deliberately  take
call on shabbat.   He brings down Rav Moshe's answer that  this depends
on the issue whether shabbat is dchuyah or hutra - if hutra,  one
should take, if dchuya, one should switch.
He then adds - that he  disagrees - that it is better that one tries to
keep an intact shabbat with  one's family even if shabbat is hutra -
and therefore avoid  call.



FWIW, one can certainly find many discussions and teshuvos as to what a  
prospective medical student , intern, resident or attending physician can or  
should do, ranging from going for the best residency without any concern about  
Shabbos to considering only Shomer Shabbos residencies among Poskim. 
 
Yet, one wonders why one cannot simply go for the branches of medicine that  
offer the best of both worlds, namly a superb medical training without having 
to  be Mchallel Shabbos or entering into the huge safek of Hutra/Dchuyah.  
Obviously, one can raise the issue of Hatzalah EMTS and what they are doing but  
WADR, Hatzalah EMTs respond to instances of Pikuach Nefesh or at least a safek 
 thereof, with Poskim ( RSZA and RMF) offering different views as to what to 
do  once their response is over, as opposed to serving on-call where one can 
argue  that much that occurs does not amount to Pikuach Nefesh, unless one 
assumes that  Shabbos is completely Hutra. 
 
Steve Brizel
_Zeliglaw@aol.com_ (mailto:Zeliglaw@aol.com) 
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> Ilana Sober writes:
>
> "Is it a coincidence that ready-to-wear clothing is almost always
> manufactured in sweatshop conditions in developing countries? I cannot
> remember when I last saw a union tag in an item of clothing. Should we
> really be surprised that clothing that presents an ethical michshol
> alsopresents a tznius michshol?"

Rn. Sober,

Are sweatshops ethically problematic? Certainly we find it that way,
but we live in a rich country. In poor countries those are the only
kind of jobs available and it's either work in a sweatshop or starve.
When you convince rich countries to give poor countries enough wealth
so that they can send their children to school until they are 18 or 25
then you can complain about sweatshop conditions. Even then, I
wouldn't be surprised if many countries would prefer poverty to
handouts. Look at India for example.

Regards,
Shmuel

R' Micha Berger wrote:


> The following is from the most recent issue of Shabbat BeShabbato,
> sent out by Machon Zomet under the auspices of the NRP.

> 
> RESPONSA FOR OUR TIMES
> Downloading Programs from the Internet
> by Rabbi Re'eim Hacohen, Rosh Yeshiva and Chief Rabbi, Otniel

<snip>

> (2) According to the Talmud in Bava Kama, one who derives a benefit from
> an object that belongs to a colleague must pay him for using it. The
> Noda B'Yehuda expanded this ruling to include a case where the benefit
> was not direct but indirect. Thus, anybody who benefits from a program
> or from music that somebody else created is obligated to pay, because
> he received a benefit.

It can be argued that this Halakhah is limited to objects in the 
physical realm. In a scenario where the benefit is derived from a copied 
object, without having Dina DeMalkhusa assigning an ownership of 
copyright to said object, what is the basis to obligate payment, and to 
whom?

> 
> Civil law prohibits copying a program or music, and it also prohibits
> distributing these materials on the internet. It seems reasonable to
> assume that "the law of the land" applies. And in fact Beit Yitzchak
> forbids copying written material, based on this law, "Dina D'Malchuta."

So long as Dina DeMalkhusa holds, with regard to Copyrights and the 
limitations of fair use. Should Dina DeMalkhusa change course, and 
define fair use to allow for file sharing (completely hypothetical), it 
would be fair to posit that Halakhah would not present an obstacle to 
file-sharing, as the ba'alus over the object does not extend to digital 
copies.

> 
> Another point to be taken into account is the binding effect of accepted
> community practice. We have been taught, "The inhabitants of a city can
> make rules about passing through the gates, about weights and measures,
> and about wages of workmen" [Tosefta Bava Metzia 11:23]. Such rules are
> binding on the people. This was expanded starting from the time of the
> Geonim (after the Talmud was completed). For example, see Shaarei Tzedek,
> Volume 4, 304:16. As is well known, the Chatam Sofer prohibited printing
> the Talmud based on these rules (Choshen Mishpat 41, 79), and his opinion
> was accepted by Rabbi Herzog and Rabbi Nissim (published in the TUR,
> "El Hamekorot" edition). Clearly, in our case, if society makes such
> rules it is not reasonable at all that only those who fear G-d will make
> exceptions for themselves.

I always understood this to be one of the reasons of Dina Demalkhusa.

> 
> (3) As far as I can see, copying something from the internet is not at
> all comparable to rescuing something from the depths of the sea. This
> halacha refers to something that has been lost by the owners and is not
> freely available to anybody else, and thus even if the owners claim that
> they have not given up hope, the object can be kept by somebody who finds
> it. In the present case, there is no tangible object that was lost, and
> no owner is helplessly standing by. Rather, every person can make his
> own choice whether to disobey what has been accepted by society and to
> steal or not. Thus, this can be compared to a lost item that is in the
> possession of many different people. In the case of the internet, if the
> rabbis declare that everybody should pay for the use of a program, the
> owners will not despair of receiving their money from religious people,
> and as far as they are concerned this is certainly not the "depths of
> the sea." Certainly as far as music and computer programs are concerned
> one cannot say that the owners have despaired, since their daily legal
> struggle to protect their rights clearly shows the opposite.

No one is under the illusion that their product won't be copied and 
distributed. It is expected, and there is even a call to abolish Digital 
Rights Management (DRM) altogether (DRM is a digital mechanism designed 
to prevent files from being copied). Apple's CEO, Steve Jobs, recently 
recommended that DRM has been ineffective and is urging the four major 
record labels to remove DRM from their digital content, arguing that the 
cost/effort is not worth the minimal benefit.

I could see the argument of Zuto shel Yam WRT file-sharing via the 
Internet. The product is out of the owner's realm altogether, and he has 
no ability to stop anyone from downloading it. Even if he is satisfied 
by the possibility that law enforcement may interject on his behalf, the 
reality is that no one is Someikh that his "losses" will be recovered in 
Civil Court. The handful of cases that are brought up against 
individuals for file sharing, is a drop in the sea compared to the 
amount of material that is actually pirated.

I don't think that Zuto Shel Yam trumps Dina deMalkhusa though, which 
clearly takes issue with filesharing.

--Jacob Farkas

> In summary: Beyond the strict halachic approach discussed here, the laws
> commonly accepted by society obligate those who obey the halacha. The
> moral demands of the Torah should never be less than what is demanded
> by local law, which requires one to pay the author for the use of his
> creation.

<In the Minchat Asher (quite popular haredi work) on parshat yitro, he
has an essay whether shabbat is dechuya or hutra with pikuah nefesh -
quite erudite and interesting. At the end, he brings the question whether
someone who has on call responsibilities should either try to switch his
call with some one else, or, recognizing that he will be more
diligent, deliberately take call on shabbat.   He brings down Rav
Moshe's answer that this depends
on the issue whether shabbat is dchuyah or hutra - if hutra, one
should take, if dchuya, one should switch. He then adds - that he
disagrees - that it is better that one tries to keep an intact shabbat
with one's family even if shabbat is hutra -
and therefore avoid call.

My sense is that this is actually a quite radical position - which
reflects the reality and comfort of depending on others to fulfill
vital functions - and therefore reflects ways in which current reality
seep into all aspects of psak.>>

I am not sure I agree. Actually in Israel many poskim discuss the
question whether one can switch either duty time as a doctor or in the
army with a chiloni so as to avoid working on shabbat. My impression
is that the overwhelming psak is that one cannot switch with a chiloni
since the religious person will be more careful.

Nevertheless R. Chaim Dovid HaLevi Zt"l former chief rabbi of Tel Aviv
paskens that one can switch with a chiloni based on the fact that the
chiloni will almost definitely do melacha on shabbat in any case.

It is not always easy to identify a psak with the community of the posek.
Another example is the question of making a brit on shabbat when it
will cause chillul shabbat on the part of close family who are not
religious. Many poskim say that milah in its time overrides any fears
about what others might do. RAL strenously objects to postponing a
brit milah and says one need not be concerned about averot of others
after explaining to them the problem of traveling on shabat. However,
it is R. Wosner the very charedi posek who suggest postponing the brit
to avoid chillul shabbat by chilonim even though every effort will be
done to try and accomodate them to avoid chillul shabbat. Thus, he was
not concerned about the parents of the infant who will try their best
but was concerned that there will be chillul shabbat by the chilonim,

-- 
Eli Turkel

> I am not sure I agree. Actually in Israel many poskim discuss the
> question whether one can switch either duty time as a doctor or in the
> army with a chiloni so as to avoid working on shabbat. My impression
> is that the overwhelming psak is that one cannot switch with a chiloni
> since the religious person will be more careful.
>
> Nevertheless R. Chaim Dovid HaLevi Zt"l former chief rabbi of Tel Aviv
> paskens that one can switch with a chiloni based on the fact that the
> chiloni will almost definitely do melacha on shabbat in any case.
The practical conclusion of the discussion (this was a theoretical
psak)  - that one may switch - is not radical.  However, most of the
poskim I am aware start with the issue that shabbat is dchuya versus
hutra - and therefore , if good medical care can be guaranteed,
minimizing hillul shabbat is a consideration.  What was radical (IMHO)
was his position that even if one assumed hutra rather than dchuya  -
and therefore there is no issur shabbat involved - (and I am aware
that halacha lema'ase most pasken dchuya) -  the desire to keep
shabbat with the family is the overriding issue ....

Meir Shinnar

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 13:58:21 -0700 Shmuel Weidberg 
<ezrawax@gmail.com> wrote:
>Are sweatshops ethically problematic? Certainly we find it that 
way,
>but we live in a rich country. In poor countries those are the only
>kind of jobs available and it's either work in a sweatshop or 
>starve. ...

If sweatshops were clearly ethical or clearly unethical then there 
would be no ethical problem.  The ethical problem is precisely that 
the factors you mention and the factors RnIS mention are in 
conflict and which one should win out is not at all clear.

Or, to put it in l'maaseh terms, I don't have a problem with 
someone who chooses to buy such merchandise nor with someone who 
doesn't.  The problem is someone who denies that there are ethical 
(by which we here must mean halachic) implications to the decision.

--
Daniel M. Israel
dmi1@cornell.edu

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 14:02:13 -0700 Jacob Farkas 
<jfarkas@compufar.com> wrote:
>I could see the argument of Zuto shel Yam WRT file-sharing via the 
>Internet. The product is out of the owner's realm altogether, and 
>he has no ability to stop anyone from downloading it. Even if he 
is 
>satisfied by the possibility that law enforcement may interject on 
his 
>behalf, the reality is that no one is Someikh that his "losses" 
will be 
>recovered in Civil Court. The handful of cases that are brought up 
>against individuals for file sharing, is a drop in the sea 
compared 
>to the amount of material that is actually pirated.

I don't see it, though.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but the issue 
here is ye'ush, no?  In the zuto shel yam case, first I don't 
expect anyone to find the item in the first place, and even if they 
do, I don't think there is any way that I could find out in order 
to recover it.  So I have ye'ush.  But with internet file sharing, 
I absolutely expect people to "find" the item (that's the whole 
point), and furthermore, I can very clearly declare that I am 
makpid.  In other words, I think there is a very great difference 
between ye'ush because I could never identify who has taken my 
item, and the case where it is just not cost effective to try to 
recover $2.50 from 100,000 individuals.  In the latter case I may 
not bother, but can we really call that ye'ush?  If I require 
payment with the expectation that the %1 of people who are careful 
will pay me, isn't everyone who doesn't do so a ganef?

--
Daniel M. Israel
dmi1@cornell.edu

Zev Sero wrote:
> Daniel Israel wrote:
>> Or, to put it in l'maaseh terms, I don't have a problem with someone 
>> who chooses to buy such merchandise nor with someone who doesn't.  The 
>> problem is someone who denies that there are ethical (by which we here 
>> must mean halachic) implications to the decision.
> 
> Well, I flat out deny that there is an ethical problem.   In fact,
> the only problem I have is with the people who insist that there
> is a problem.

Just to clarify: do you
(a) deny that there is any mistreatment of workers,
(b) assert that although there is mistreatment, it is so clearly 
outweighed by other factors that the ethical situation becomes obvious,
(c) deny that such mistreatment is an halachic/ethical issue?

Or something else I'm missing?

-- 
Daniel M. Israel
dmi1@cornell.edu

Eli Turkel quotes a letter of Shmuel Boylan in the Commie who testifies that
RJB said, in response to a query about an opinion he had quoted from his
father, zt"l, that a nation (such as the Nazis) could be transformed into
Amalek and whether such a halakhic designation would then have implications
with regard to innocent wives and children, as well. The Rav, he
wrote, "strongly rejected such a concept, reminding me that the Rambam
required an approach for shalom prior to milkhemet Amalek-and that such a
requirement made action against innocent parties impossible."

Taking into consideration that that was the full extent of the conversation
and that no other discussion occured, and despite his own more interesting
opinion regarding Arabs in Kol Dodi Dofek, I guess we now know that the IDF
doesn't have to take out little Arab children and kill them in a summarily
fashion.  That, of course, we knew before.  What the argument was about a
few months ago was whether the IDF need adopt a la Halacha a stringent code
of morality that was resulting in more Jewish civilians deaths than Arabs in
the war against terror (such as in the case of my neighbor's son, Avihu
Keinan, who was sent into a house in Gaza unnecessarily so as to make sure
that so-called innocent Arabs would not be harmed while they searched for an
Arab terrorist, hiding in the hosue with the aid and succor of these
"innocent" Arabs who eventually shot Avihu in the head).

Another point is that I would presume that the Rav also would consider the
Madrid Conference, the Oslo Accords, the Hebron Agreement and a few others
in-between as more than enough to meet the most stringent of demands of the
Rambam as to "calls for peace".

-- 
Yisrael Medad
Shiloh
Mobile Post Efraim 44830
Israel
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Being that I am in EY, and most things are in the USA, is a person meshubed 
to another country's laws? First of all, many poyskim hold that there is no 
Dina deMalchusa in EY. But let's say I'm in England, and something is ossur 
al pi chok of the USA, why am I, as an Englishman living in England mushubed 
to the laws of the USA, for example?
>
> I don't think that Zuto Shel Yam trumps Dina deMalkhusa though, which
> clearly takes issue with filesharing.
>

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