Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 25

Wed, 21 Feb 2007

• 1. "Zipped" in Sefer Shemot? (Galsaba@aol.com)
• 2. Employing non-tznius staff (Danny Schoemann)
• 3. ancient western galut (Eli Turkel)
• 4. Names of Heavenly Bodies (Joshua Meisner)
• 5. Re: "Zipped" in Sefer Shemot? (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: size of amah.kezayit and chumrot (Elazar M. Teitz)
• 7. man(na), Haman, Moshe (Tamar Weissman)
• 8. Yom Kippur/Purim Lots (Tamar Weissman)
• 9. Re: Preferred form of maror (Simon Montagu)
• 10. Re: Preferred form of maror (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Copyright redux (Jacob Farkas)
• 12. Re: Employing non-tznius staff (Shmuel Weidberg)
• 13. Torah and Slavery (Jonathan Baker)
• 14. Re: Preferred form of maror (Zev Sero)

On this week Parasha, (Tetzaveh)we read ?????? ?? ????? - (VaYirkhasu 
Et HaKhoshen)  
(Shmot 28:28). 
Reading the parasha, my understanding is that they BUTTONED the Khoshen.
They buttoned the Khoshen to the Efod.
If I have to translate the pasuk (VaYirKhesu) to English (zipper in English 
is Rokhsan in Hebrew) then I will say "they ZIPPED the Khoshen"
Based on this, the right word in modern Hebrew (in my opinion) for "TO 
BUTTON" should be "LiRkhos". However, modern hebrew uses the word "LirKhos" for "to 
zip".
Didn't they mix between the two verbs?
Aaron
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If I'm involved in hiring more staff for our office, how should I
handle the possibility of hiring a lady who doesn't live up to Rav
Falk's guidelines, to say the least.

What would my halachic and legal options allow me to do?

Assuming that the best person for the job is such a candidate, and the
runner up is a man or a conservatively dressed lady, should I put
business or halacha first?

This is currently theoretical (though we are hiring), but after
thinking about it, I decided I'd like the chevra's input - even though
the answer should be obvious.

(The issue is tzibur-oriented, as there are many frum Yidden working
here, and there's always meetings that you have to be present at, and
can't "look at the floor" while being polite.)

Thanks

- Danny

This theory rests heavily on the idea that the concept of TSBP dates to the
rabbinic period, and thus these western Jews, who knew Greek but little
Hebrew, only knew of the Septuagint -- Tzeduqi style. I wouldn't buy into it.>>

No it only assume that TSBP was mainly known in EY and Bavel not
that it didnt exist.
The general consensus is that Philo only knew the Septuagint and did
not know or had minimal knowledge of Hebrew.

-- 
Eli Turkel

I understand the etymologies behind the names used by Chazal to refer to the
bright heavenly body (Venus) the red body (Mars), and the 7th body (Saturn),
but why is Mercury referred to as Kochav and Jupiter as Tzedek?

Thanks,

Joshua
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Galsaba@aol.com wrote:
> On this week Parasha, (Tetzaveh)we read ?????? ?? ????? -
> (VaYirkhasu Et HaKhoshen)  (Shmot 28:28).
> Reading the parasha, my understanding is that they BUTTONED
> the Khoshen.  They buttoned the Khoshen to the Efod.

When do you suppose buttons were invented?

 
> *If I have to translate the pasuk (VaYirKhesu) to English (zipper in 
> English is Rokhsan in Hebrew) then I will say "they ZIPPED the Khoshen*"

Why would you do that?  What possible relevance could a thoroughly
modern word, in a thoroughly modern form, have to translating the
Torah?  You might as well rely on some Hindi word that sounds similar.
And when do you suppose the zipper was invented?


> Based on this, the right word in modern Hebrew (in my opinion) for
> "TO BUTTON" should be "LiRkhos". However, modern hebrew uses the
> word "LirKhos" for "to zip".  Didn't they mix between the two verbs?

So?  Ivrit has only a nodding acquaintance with Lashon Hakodesh at
the best of times.  Ivrit makes stuff up all the time; it also borrows
words from earlier forms of Hebrew, and uses them for completely
different purposes, especially for concepts that didn't exist in
earlier times, and so couldn't possibly have had words.  Or did you
think that Yechezkel knew about electricity?  Or that "chazeret",
the preferred form of maror, is horseradish?


Lirchos is to fasten.  How one fastens is probably not relevant.
But the choshen was certainly neither buttoned nor zipped, since
neither form of fastening was known.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

     Eli Turkel writes, inter alia, "I always enjoy reading from the 
sefer of R. Eider where after giving the large shiur states that this 
is "defined" as normal eating since eating abnormally invalidates the 
mitzvah. I dont understand how one can define as normal eating 
filling ones mouth with matzah and then slowly chewing it and then
finaly swallowing it within 2 minutes is normal."

     There is no one, to the best of my knowledge, who requires 
eating "maximum" kezaysim in the smallest shiur of k'dei achilas 
pras.  These are two contradictory chumros.  Since a pras is either 3 
or four zeisim, the bigger the kazayis, the bigger the k'dei achilas 
pras.  Thus, the matzo can be eaten at a normal pace; the machmirim 
should eat for a longer period of time, until they complete their 
shiur.

EMT 

Hello...I'm in need of clarification.
Clearly there's a link between Moshe and Haman (Haman's happiness at lot falling in Adar, month of Moshe Rabbeinu's petirah).  
1)  Can someone explain Haman's happiness beyond the superficiality of "bad-luck-month Adar?"  In other words, perhaps Haman felt that the reason for Moshe's death (hitting the rock instead of talking to it) promised the success of his endeavor to wipe out Am Yisrael.  Why?
2) "Lo nitna haTorah ela l'ochlei HaMan"  -- who is willing to apply this to dor Esther v'Mordechai?
3) Man(na) ceasing on 16 Nissan, same day as Haman's death.  Explain.

Thanks in advance,
Tamar




 
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One additional question:
Much has been written on the relative Kabbalot HaTorah of Yom Kippur and Purim.  Much has been written on chance/lots in connection to Purim.  The Pachad Yitzchak discusses lots LaHashem/LaAzazel in his kuntres on Purim as superficially identical but p'nimiyut is entirely opposite (Yaakov/Eisav), but I don't see the underlying interrelation between the lots on Yom Kippur and the lots on Purim.  
Can anyone please explain this to me?
Best,
Tamar




 
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On 2/21/07, Zev Sero <zev@sero.name> wrote:
>  Ivrit makes stuff up all the time; it also borrows
> words from earlier forms of Hebrew, and uses them for completely
> different purposes, especially for concepts that didn't exist in
> earlier times, and so couldn't possibly have had words.  Or did you
> think that Yechezkel knew about electricity?  Or that "chazeret",
> the preferred form of maror, is horseradish?

I was nodding along here until I came to the last sentence. Was
horseradish not known in ancient times? What is chazeret?

RSMontagu wrote:
> I was nodding along here until I came to the last sentence. Was horseradish
not > known in ancient times? What is chazeret?

Chazeres is lettuce, probably prickly lettuce (I've never seen the breed) in
particular. Horseradish was used as maror in the Pale of Settlement because
green vegetables are scarce there that time of year.

Some even raise questions about whether one is yotzei with horseradish.

Last time around (or maybe the time before that), R' Noach Witty pointed to an
article in Gesher 5741 by Arthur Schaffer, a botanist. He argued that
horseradish (from mare redditch, sea radish, via mare -> mare) is sharp, not
bitter.

Also, R' Herschel Schachter wanted to know how you do koreich with something
that doesn't bend. But he assumes that Hillel's matzah was cracker type, and
thus the leaf must be wrapped around the matzah. However, it is possible to
wrap a soft matzah around meat spiced with ground horseradish.

(The other botanical perennial around Pesach time is whether oats are really
one of the 5 minim and usable for matzah.)

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

> RMB:
> <<There is a long history of protecting the rights of published sefarim,
> not allowing others to republish the material on their own.>>

Rabbi Folger wrote:
> As you did mention, that was based on cherem and on the classicla notion
> of hassagat gevul. In fact, the time alotted to recoup expenses and make
> profit was much shorter than current copyrights, and it was clearly in
> order to promote a societal ood: having more seforim printed. Thus, the
> protection afforded in days of yore supports the notion that copyright is
> a crated right and that it cannot be arbitrarily legislated. Exactly my
> speculation.
> 

In previous posts, I mentioned similarly, that application of Hasagas 
Gevul to today's copyright laws are questionable, and therefore 
suggested that the possible Halakhic transgression would be tied to DDD, 
as understood by some Rishonim.

In the absence of DDD or other similar Taqanos if created by today's 
Rabbanim, the Haramim of yore may not apply because they were not 
directed at individual users, and were focused on the livelihood of the 
content creator, and was used to protect his source of income. Allowing 
a rival publisher to profit from yenem's work was damaging to yenem, and 
thus prohibited.

I think we are all in agreement on this point. (RMB may have issue with 
copyright infringement as Hezeq). Without touching the gray area of 
Yosher, of course.

> <<Also, the SuM's reasoning raises the notion of obeying the society's
> moral code well beyond any limitations of DDD or even any loopholes in
> any laws based on the moral stance.>>
> 

Rabbi Folger wrote:
> But the flip side is to consider such artificial rights problematic,
> because the transfer of rights may be unwarranted.

The definition of artificial rights is where I am somewhat confused. As 
copyrights do create a tangible ownership, albeit via secular courts, 
should this entity be dismissed by Halakhah? I ask this as a staunch 
opponent of current copyright laws. Nevertheless, it is tough to ignore 
that a tangible ownership is held by the content creator, the definition 
and parameters of this ownership is government granted, is this 
categorically non-existent? In general, how does Halakhah address 
concepts that are 'created' by modern markets, i.e. if today's market 
allows for sale of next year's crop, a standard case of Davar Shelo Ba 
leOlam, is this transaction ignored because this entity is not valid in 
Halakhah?

> 
> <<This also gets to the issue of ve'asisa hatov vehayashar, where the din
> is simply to be moral rather than the din defining specific behavior.
> However, that's a topic for another post.>>
> 

Rabbi Folger wrote:
> Same as above. It is hard to make patents and copyrights such a simple and
> straigthforward moral issue. Personally, I feel that we need to work
> within the system, but may be we should both lobby against excessive
> intellectual property laws by pointing out how dubiously moral they can
> become, and to maximize the available consumer rights, including legally
> available loopholes, insofar as these correspond to halakhcally
> permissible actions. That last caveat is of course enormous and requires
> that much more be written on the subject. Wholesale acceptance of a party
> line does not equal analysis.

The 'system' knows no precedent for digital works, or of individuals 
copying material for non-commercial usage. [Of course, every Mehabeir 
Sefarim, or Motzi LeOhr has pasqened that photocopies of their Sefarim 
(or any part thereof) is against the 'Reshus' of the author and 
publisher, as well as against the law, at times citing DDD...] These are 
entities that did not exist in earlier generations. I agree that 
'morally' this is a gray area, which is why if filesharing is Assur, I 
don't see a reason beyond DDD.

Can we ignore DDD for a widely recognized entity, is there precedent for 
ignoring newly created entities when they don't exist in Halakhah?

--Jacob Farkas

On 2/21/07, Danny Schoemann <doniels@gmail.com> wrote:
> If I'm involved in hiring more staff for our office, how should I
> handle the possibility of hiring a lady who doesn't live up to Rav
> Falk's guidelines, to say the least.
>
> What would my halachic and legal options allow me to do?

If you were to hire her, I don't see any reason why you could not
insist that she dress conservatively.

Regards,
Shmuel

From: "kennethgmiller@juno.com" <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
> R' Micha Berger wrote:

> > We really don't see that halakhah endorses slavery.
> > Rather, that HQBH saw fit to regulate it rather than
> > prohibit it. Certainly the need for such legislation
> > shows a dissatisfaction with the idea. So, why isn't
> > there an actual issur?
 
> HQBH also saw fit to regulate eating. Does the need for that 
> legislation show dissatisfaction with the idea? I don't think so.
 
> I think (hope?) we can all agree that Eishes Yefas To'ar *IS* an 
> example of something which the Torah allows but only grudgingly. I 
> really don't think that eating is an example of that. And this 
> discussion is about where the line is located, and on which side of 
> that line slavery falls.

Having a king is also something which seems to be grudging.  The Torah
uses "ki" referring to appointing a king, which can be conditional, 
rather than stating straight out "you shall appoint a king."

Certainly Shmuel haNavi is really against the idea of having a
king "like all the other nations".

Yet we all pray for the return of a (constitutional) monarchy.

Funny, though, I've been having the "slavery is inherently evil"
vs. "the Torah permits, even semi-approvingly, enslavement of 
non-Jews, albeit with restrictions beyond what the American 
South had", on another Jewish list.

I've been making arguments like "300 years ago, slavery was a fact
of life.  Now, it's not.  300 years from now, who knows what will be?"
Which has been taken by my correspondents to mean that I endorse slavery.

Of course I don't endorse slavery.  But rather than declaring "Slavery
is evil", and thereby implying the Torah is (in part) evil, it seems
more advisable to admit this exists in the Torah, and somehow deal 
with it.  The existence of hard questions is a reality.  Avoidance of
them can lead to people going off the derech.  Acknowledging them as
hard questions is more honest, and may not turn people off so easily.

--
        name: jon baker              web: http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker
     address: jjbaker@panix.com     blog: http://thanbook.blogspot.com

Simon Montagu wrote:
> On 2/21/07, Zev Sero <zev@sero.name> wrote:
>>  Ivrit makes stuff up all the time; it also borrows
>> words from earlier forms of Hebrew, and uses them for completely
>> different purposes, especially for concepts that didn't exist in
>> earlier times, and so couldn't possibly have had words.  Or did you
>> think that Yechezkel knew about electricity?  Or that "chazeret",
>> the preferred form of maror, is horseradish?
> 
> I was nodding along here until I came to the last sentence. Was
> horseradish not known in ancient times? What is chazeret?

Lettuce.  I have no idea why Ivrit uses the word for horseradish,
but chazeret as used by Jews everywhere, when they are not speaking
Ivrit, is lettuce.  The chazeret on the bottom of the seder plate
(in the Ari's configuration) is lettuce.  I used to get very confused
when reading Ivrit references to chazeret, until someone explained
that it meant horseradish.

Horseradish is traditionally supposed to be tamcha, which is one
of the other four kinds, which are acceptable but not preferred.
AIUI, those who've looked into such things (are you here R Ari Z?)
have concluded that that tradition is wrong, and horseradish actually
isn't one of the five kinds at all.  That's as may be.  But nobody
has ever supposed it to be chazeret.  Unless they're learning from
an Ivrit dictionary instead of from the Shulchan Aruch.


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas


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