Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 38

Sat, 03 Mar 2007

• 1. Re: the 5th purim mitzva (Michael Kopinsky)
• 2. Re: end of fast (Michael Kopinsky)
• 3. Re: ikkarim redux (Moshe Yehuda Gluck)
• 4. Re: [Areivim] Bal Tashchis (Moshe Yehuda Gluck)
• 5. Re: [Areivim] Bal Tashchis (Rich, Joel)
• 6. Re: When did Ta'anis Esther begin? (David Riceman)
• 7. Re: Vashti's tail etc... (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: Torah and Slavery (David Riceman)
• 9. Re: end of fast (David Riceman)
• 10. Re: the 5th purim mitzva (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Vashti's tail etc... (Micha Berger)
• 12. Toras Purim 5767 (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)
• 13. Re: Vashti's tail etc... (SBA)
• 14. Megila is not part of Bible? (Daniel Eidensohn)

On 3/1/07, Newman,Saul Z <Saul.Z.Newman@kp.org> wrote:
> it seems very prevalent that in today's time , there is now an apparant 5th
> mitzva, being tzedaka for every mossad one can think of. i dont remember
> growing up purim being a day for collecting for yeshivahs, hatzala, etc  it
> WAS a mitzva to give for matanot leaniyim, a bo-bayom mitzva, geared for
> providing for the aniyim's need for the day.
> i wonder was it always a general every-tzedaka-under-the-sun day, or did
> this just become something for shtik-oriented teenagers to do to while away
> the time. maybe it just took longer for the practice to get to the west.
> am i wrong?
>

Maybe this comes from "Ein medakd'kin b'maos Purim, ela kol mi sheposheit
yado litol nosnim lo."  Nowadays, this "ein medakd'kin" has been extended
to not even caring what kind of tzedaka they want it for.  (Obviously,
this isn't a halachic explanation, but rather a possible explanation of a
phenomenon.)

On 3/1/07, Eli Turkel <eliturkel@gmail.com> wrote:
> In Israel the fast seems to end about 10 minutes before motzei shabbat time.
> Whenever I am in the US the fast ends about the same time as motzei shabbat.
> Any reason for the discrepancy?

Many electronic zmanim boards in Israel have two separate times, one for
TzhK, and one for Motz"sh.  I think TzhK they generally have TzhK as a
fixed 22-25 minutes after Shkiah, and Motz"sh is a fixed 40 or so minutes
after shkiah.  I think this chumra is specifically because of Shabbos and
not just because it's d'oraisa, because people are someich on the earlier
zman for Kr"sh.

Before I came to Israel, I did not know of any Zman for Tzeis other than
that of Motzei Shabbos, which was an hour after hadlakas neiros, or 42
minutes after shkiah.

R' MB:
YOu say "yes" and then miscast what I said. I'm talking about pesaq.
Halachically speaking, they enjoy an acceptance. It's what most poseqim rely
upon.
R' MS:
I am arguing that the acceptance is more sociological than halachic - the
basis of it is more that everyone in our community clearly accepts it and
there is no controversy - rather than an actual halachic argument - and the
transmutation of sociology into psak is a real problem. (it isn't far
different than psaks about wearing hats.....- but there at least, there do
exist psakim arguing for a real basis...) 


To possibly add a different perspective, it seems to me that perhaps the
issue of minhag can be added to the mix. In other words, what is the minhag
of the majority of Klal Yisrael when it comes to Ikkarei HaDas? Well, just
about every siddur for hundreds of years included Yigdal and the 13 Ani
Maamins. If so, as far as the psak of minhag is concerned, the 13 ikkarim
are accepted as psak. (Risking R' SM's wrath :-) I'll share something a
posek told me. He asked a major contemporary posek (MCP) what the minhag by
a certain aspect of Hilchos vestos was, and the MCP answered that it was
whatever was printed in the Yiddish pages of the (IIRC) Korban Mincha Siddur
that discussed Hilchos Niddah. As all Jewish women used to use that as their
Hilchos Niddah primer, that was the minhag.)

KT,
MYG

P.S. In a similar vein, it can perhaps be argued that the Artscroll Siddur
is Kove'a the minhag today. (Not said in the spirit of Purim.)

R' MB on Areivim:
*Another possibility:
*
*I work in software, so most of my co workers are either Indian Hindus
*(usually irreligious) or Russian Jews (also usually irreligious).
*I bring my shalach manos in and walk around the cubes, trying to start
*conversations about Purim, Yahadus, etc..., and see if I can pick up
*people for a seider. (Yakov or Eugene, not Dipankar or Rajkumar.)


Isn't that a problem, re: Lifnei Iver because of their not making Berachos?

KT,
MYG

 
I don't have the cite but I'm pretty sure R' SZA paskened this was not a
problem in a kiruv situation.
'KT
Joel Rich
=====================================================
=
*
*I work in software, so most of my co workers are either Indian Hindus
*(usually irreligious) or Russian Jews (also usually irreligious).
*I bring my shalach manos in and walk around the cubes, trying to start
*conversations about Purim, Yahadus, etc..., and see if I can pick up
*people for a seider. (Yakov or Eugene, not Dipankar or Rajkumar.)


Isn't that a problem, re: Lifnei Iver because of their not making
Berachos?

KT,
MYG

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From: "Micha Berger" <micha@aishdas.org>

> Would this in turn mean that Ta'anis Esther post-dates Churban Bayis 
> Sheini?

I thought everyone except Rabbeinu Tam agreed that Taanis Esther postdated 
Hazal.

David Riceman 

Micha Berger wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 02, 2007 at 02:37:09AM -0500, Moshe Yehuda Gluck quotes
> RMMiller and responds:
> :> Additionally, such an explicity supernatural occurance seems out of
> :> place in the (superficially) natural story of the megilah.
> 
> : That seems to me to be an emotional reason for rejecting the plain meaning
> : of Chazal....
> 
> Actually, it defies every maqor that speaks of hesteir panim.
> 
> The whole mehalekh we consistently take to understanding Purim *requires*
> a lack of any supernatural events.

Not really.  Eliyahu informing Mordechai about Haman's decree.  Esther's
appearing beautiful to everyone, especially Achashverosh, despite her
age and unattractiveness, Achashverosh's hand extending the sceptre to
Esther when he intended not to; these are all miracles, just not public
spectacular ones.  And they're not mentioned in the text of the megillah,
but the gemara makes sure that we know about them. Because the story
*was* miraculous, but the miracles were known only to the people to
whom they happened, not to thousands of bystanders.

The same thing applies here: the megillah tells us that Vashti refused
to appear, but Chazal were bothered by a simple question: *why* did
she refuse?  They tell us that the invitation to appear "becheter
malchut" meant "and nothing else"; if such an invitation were given to
any normal woman, we would expect her to refuse, and would need no
explanation.  But the gemara goes to the trouble of telling us that
Vashti was by nature a lewd woman and an exhibitionist, and that her
party was just as orgiastic as his.  This sets up the question, in
that case why did she suddenly turn shy?  Achashverosh clearly
expected her to show up and brazenly strut her stuff; why didn't she?
Something must have happened to prevent her.  So Chazal tell us that
she grew a tail, or she was suddenly smitten with an embarassing skin
condition, or something like that.  This was an outright miracle, but
by its nature it was private - only Vashti was aware of it, and she
made sure to keep it that way, which is precisely why she cancelled
her show.


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

From: "Micha Berger" <micha@aishdas.org>

> a- Property transfer requires the agreement of buyer and seller, not of 
> the item
>   (e.g. slave) being bought. Marriage requires the woman's consent.

I was somewhat confused at my wedding, so I don't recall all of the details, 
but I think I argued that what was being purchased was the exclusive right 
to initiate a divorce.

David Riceman 

From: <kennethgmiller@juno.com>

> My LOR (listmember Rabbi Elazar Teitz of Elizabeth NJ) follows an
> interesting mix of keeping things simple so as not to confuse people,
> and also allowing some variations: For most of the year, the official
> Motzaei Shabbos is at 45 minutes after shkiah. But for all of May,
> June and July, we end at 50 minutes. We sacrifice a little bit of
> accuracy for the sake of simplicity. (Or maybe we sacrifice a little
> simplicity to end Shabbos five minutes earlier for nine months of the
> year?)
>
> On the other hand, all fasts - both winter and summer - end at 42
> minutes, except for Yom Kippur which ends at 54 minutes.

Isn't it confusing that you're allowed to do m'lacha after Yom Kippur before 
being allowed to eat?

David Riceman 

On Thu, March 1, 2007 10:55 am, Newman,Saul Z wrote:
: i wonder was it always a general every-tzedaka-under-the-sun day, or did
: this just become something for shtik-oriented teenagers to do to while away
: the time. maybe it just took longer for the practice to get to the west.

Perhaps it uses the same reasoning as ma'aser kesafim.

Many justify using ma'aser kesafim for yeshivos because scholarships cover the
costs for people who can't afford it. Some extend this to whatever percentage
of tuition is inflated to cover others' scholarships.

Thus, if supporting yeshivos is helping aniyim WRT ma'aser kesafim, why not
WRT matanos le'evyonim?

But I think it's more sociological... An attempt to hit people up for money
when they are already in the mood of being looser with their tzedaqah money.

At least, I hope so -- my boys will be collecting for Chai Lifeline on Purim,
for an accessible playground for their camp. (Contact me for info on where to
send any checks.) Of course, most people who r"l have a sick child are
financially strapped by it as well, so it too is arguably matanos le'evyonim.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

The anonymous blog "avakesh" must be written by one of us. His recent entry is
about taking a medrash literally. Not Vatshti's tail, but a medrash on
parashas Tetzaveh that the menorah stayed lit for a year.

Teaser:
> From standpoint of Halacha this midrash is quite difficult for it appears
> to state that the Menorah in the Temple was lit only once a year. This
> contradicts the account in Bavli (Shabbos 22b-23a) that all lamps were
> cleaned every day and if any candle was still burning, it was extinguished,
> cleaned and relit with new oil. In addition, how is the daily mitsva of
> lighting the menorah fulfilled, if it is lit but once a year?

> Several possible answers suggest themselves. Ultimately, one faces a method
> question of when to allegorize difficult midrashim, such as this one. One
> must resist the temptation to jump to derush for by resorting to homiletics
> too quickly for it is easy to overlook much simpler and better answers.
> That not only shortchanges the learner and the passage but opens one to
> charges of insufficient respect for sacred texts and can even expose one
> to ridicule. Here, though, are three possibilites that I can offer.

(Only one of the three required allegorization.)

See <http://www.avakesh.com/2007/03/keep_it_burning.html>


Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

>
> Ohr, raz and zer are gematria 107?  How so?
>
>  
> >Of course, s'iz doch pashut why 107 is perfection. 107 is ohr ??? --- 
> and raz ?? and zer ?? . When we overcome Amalek we merit the light, 
> and we are the light --- ohr la'goyim (Yeshaya 49:6) [ ???? ?' ?"?: 
> ????? ???? ???? ??????? ]. We will then perceive the raz, the secret 
> of Hashem's masterplan, and it will be our zer [ ???? ?' ?"?: ?????? 
> ??? ????? ????... ????? ??? ????? ]. 
Major blooper on my part!!!

Strike that from the record!

As a small consolation:  "Vayeitzei" - the word used for the hekesh 
between Kayin and Haman - is 107.
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From: Micha Berger <>
 RMMiller and responds:
:> Additionally, such an explicity supernatural occurance seems out of
:> place in the (superficially) natural story of the megilah.

Actually, it defies every maqor that speaks of hesteir panim.
>>

Vashti's tail would have (at that time) created no Hesteir panim
issues for the Yidden.

SBA

Doros Rishhonim (First volume page 262-) has an extensive discussion of 
when the Megila was composed. He concludes that it was written in three 
parts. 1) The majority was written by Mordechai. 2) Esther is not 
mentioned as author until the Jews accepted the obligation to observe 
Purim. This was done in order not to give the impression that observance 
was a royal decree. 3) Finally the version we have today was completed 
by the Anshei Knesses HaGodola after Ezra had returned to Israel.


Perhaps of greater interest is his understanding of Megila (7a) where 
Esther tries to get the Megila accepted against the opposition of the 
Sages. He rejects the view of Rashi and Tosfos.

*
*

*R? Yitzchok HaLevi[1] <#_ftn1>(Doros HaRishonim): *The view of Shmuel 
in Megila (7a) is is that it is obvious that the Megila should be 
written on a scroll to be read and to be remembered and that surely if 
one recited it orally he has not fulfilled his obligation. [It is not as 
Rashi and Tosfos assert that Shmuel held that the Megila was prohibited 
to be written and was only to recited orally.] Nevertheless Shmuel 
insists that the Megila was not to be considered as part of the Bible. 
This was the view of the tanna R? Yehoshua who says that there are three 
mentions of the war against Amalek ? two in the Torah and one in 
Prophets and that there is thus no basis for including the Megila in the 
Bible. Consequently since it is not included in the Bible it also does 
not render the hands impure?.


------------------------------------------------------------------------


????? ???? ?? ???, ???? ???-??-?? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ???????, 
????? ?? ?? ?? ???. ??? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ?????, ?????? ??? ??' 
?????: "??? ???", ?? ????? ???. "?????", ?? ???? ????? ????. "????", ?? 
????? ??????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?????, ??? ?? ??? ?? 
?? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ????, ?? ???? ?? ????? ????? 
??? ???? ????. ?????? ??????? ???' ???? ?? ?"?: ??? ????? ???' ?? ???? 
??? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ? ????? ???? ????? ????. ????? ????? 
???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?????, ???'. ??????? ??? 
????: ????? ????? ???? ??????. ???? ?? ????? ?????, ????? ??? ?? ?????? 
?????? ????? ????? ????. ?????, ??? ?? ????? ??????? ??? ???? ?????. ?? 
???? ?? ?????. ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?? 
???? ?????, ????? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?????, 
??? ???? ?????. ???????? ?????? ?' ?. ????? ???? ????? ?????, ?????? ??? 
?????? ???? ???' ?? ?? ????, ??? ????? ???? ????, ??????? ???? ??????? 
??????, ??? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ?????, ??? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ?????? ?? 
"?????  ????", ??? ??????? ??? ???? ?????, ??? ??????, ??? ??????? ??? 
????? ??? ?????. ????? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?????.


Purim sameach
Daniel Eidensohn

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