Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 51

Thu, 15 Mar 2007

• 1. Re: Nefilas Apaim in Yerushalayim (Rich, Joel)
• 2. Re: Nefilas Apaim in Yerushalayim (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: Tachanun (Zev Sero)
• 4. Re: Nefilas Apaim in Yerushalayim (Moshe Yehuda Gluck)
• 5. Amen (Prof. Levine)
• 6. Re: Nefilas Apaim in Yerushalayim (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 7. Commerce, Consignments and Mechirat Chametz (Shoshana L. Boublil)
• 8. Re: Nefilas Apaim in Yerushalayim (Danny Schoemann)
• 9. Re: Nefilas Apaim in Yerushalayim (Akiva Blum)
• 10. Re: Nefilas Apaim in Yerushalayim (Simon Montagu)
• 11. RYGB v. Colleague (Jacob Sasson)
• 12. Re: More on Mitzvos and Iyun (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: More on Mitzvos and Iyun (Micha Berger)

 



	My own rav (Eliezer Cohen of Oak Park, MI) invoked a psak that
nefilas apaim should be done wherever one is davening, Yerushalayim or
not, sefer torah or not (and, I presume, makom kavuah or not). The logic
is simple: you're not petitioning a sefer torah; you're petitioning
HKBH, Who is everywhere.
	 
	 -----------------------------------------------
	 
	I've heard to fall if there are sefarim in the room
	KT
	Joel 

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Elliott Shevin wrote:

> My own rav (Eliezer Cohen of Oak Park, MI) invoked a psak that nefilas 
> apaim should be done wherever one is davening, Yerushalayim or not, 
> sefer torah or not (and, I presume, makom kavuah or not). The logic is 
> simple: you're not petitioning a sefer torah; you're petitioning HKBH, 
> Who is everywhere.

What's his basis for such a psak?  His own sevara?

(See Rema OC 131:2, ultimately based on Yehoshua 7:6).


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

Yisrael Medad wrote:
> he refers to the Rokeach, Sefer Minhagei Yerushalayim 9 and another book 
> which is abbreviated as bet-reish-chaf-yud, 131.

Birkei Yosef?

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

R' Joel Rich:
I've heard to fall if there are sefarim in the room


I've heard to if there is a Shas.

KT,
MYG

I am posting this to Avodah in response to 
Michael Poppers' request that I do this. BTW, 
someone pointed out to me, "The Mishna Brurah 
says that if one?s intent is to encourage others 
to answer amen, one may say it more loudly."

 From 
http://www.geocities.com/m_yericho/ravkook/thisweek.htm 
. Please note the section A Quiet Amen.

I recall Rav A. Miller learning a Tosephos in a 
shiur that I attended many years ago that said 
something similar. When I asked him,  "In light 
of this Tosephos, why do some people say Amen 
very loudly?"  he gave me one of his knowing smiles, but did not comment. :-)

Yitzchok Levine

Psalm 34: Amen - the Response of the Soul

Amen is an ancient Hebrew word that has been 
adopted by many languages and cultures. What does 
it mean, and how should it be said?

The Sages taught an insightful lesson about Amen 
from the following verse, familiar from the call 
of the chazzan as the Torah is returned to the ark:

"Declare God's greatness with me, and we will 
exalt His Name together." [Psalm 34:4]

What is the difference between the two halves of 
the verse, between "declaring God's greatness" 
and "exalting His Name together"?

Outward Speech and Inner Thought

This verse describes a kind of spiritual dialog. 
There is the one who declares God's greatness, 
and there are those who listen and join in.

We use our faculty of speech to express to others 
our inner awe of God. This declaration starts, as 
the verse says, "with me." We openly express 
these sentiments in order to awaken others to 
join us in sensing God's greatness.

The second half of the verse, on the other hand, 
depicts a different stage. "We will exalt His 
Name together." Together we acknowledge the 
sanctity of God's Name. Concurrently we 
acknowledge the infinite kindness in God's elevated rule.

This second level requires no outward expression 
- just the contemplations of a pure heart, the 
inner feelings of the human soul. Speech is a 
vehicle to inform those who do not know. This 
stage, however, belongs to the future era when 
there will be no need to teach others, a time 
when an inner awareness of the truth will fill the world.

A Quiet Amen

The Sages saw in this verse the dialog between 
the one initiating with a blessing and the one 
responding with Amen. The response, they 
stressed, should be recited as described in the 
verse - 'together' - no louder than the original 
blessing [Berachot 45a]. What is so terrible about an extra-loud Amen?

We first need to determine: what does Amen mean?

By answering Amen to a blessing, we indicate our 
agreement. Amen means that our inner 
understanding is at one with what we have heard. 
It is not a form of public communication, but an 
inner response of the soul. We confirm that the 
sentiments that we have heard resonate with our own thoughts and feelings.

If Amen is said more loudly than the original 
blessing, this would indicate that our Amen is 
coming to add our own emotions to those already 
expressed in the blessing. This is not a negative 
act ? due to our physical nature, we are 
influenced and emotionally moved by external 
speech and actions - but speech is only a vehicle 
to awaken inner enlightenment. A true Amen is not 
a loud outburst of emotion, but rather the quiet 
reflection of agreement and inner awareness.

The blessing calls out, "Declare God's greatness 
with me!"  It is a public cry to awaken inner awareness in others.

And we respond with Amen. "We will exalt His Name 
together." We exalt God's Name, with inner 
recognition, above and beyond all language. 
Unlike the blessing, expressed openly in speech, 
Amen belongs inside the mind. The blessing is the means, and Amen is the goal.

Short in Letters, Long in Thought

The Sages wrote [Shabbat 119b] that the word Amen 
is an abbreviation for "El Melech Ne'eman" ('God, 
faithful King'). This is another sign that Amen 
belongs to the realm of thought, where speech is 
brief and reflection is extensive. Like an 
iceberg, only a small part of this response is 
revealed; its true content is hidden within.

Rav Kook on the Net: 
<http://ravkook.n3.net/>RavKook.n3.net  [adapted 
from Ein Ayah vol. II p. 202] To subscribe or 
comments, write to: <mailto:RavKookList@gmail.com>Rav Kook List




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R' Gilad Field asked:
> I saw in "Sefer Eretz Yisrael" (by Harav Tukachinsky
> (spelling?)) that you should do nefilas apaim in Yerushayim
> even in a place with no sefer torah or even if it is not a
> makom kavuah for tefillah.

I cannot answer the specific questions RGF asked (borders of Y-m, 
other opinions), but I can direct interested parties to the sefer in 
question, where he does give his reasoning behind this. Rav 
Tukachinsky's seforim can be read online (in PDF format) at 
http://www.seforimonline.org/seforim4.html

More specifically, he explained this minhag in two of his seforim. 
One is the one cited by RGF: Sefer Eretz Yisrael 1:1:9, pages 20-21. 
Read it online by going to 
www.teachittome.com/seforim2/seforim/eretz_yisrael.pdf and then going 
to page 12.

He also wrote of it in Ir HaKodesh veHaMikdash, Vol. 3, 25:8, page 
341, which is online at 
www.teachittome.com/seforim2/seforim/ir_hakodesh_vehamikdash_3.pdf 
and go to page 345.

Akiva Miller

Here is an interesting question that came up this week, in  a discussion 
between Dayanim:

a) A merchant ordered a product that may or may not be chametz (he has no 
way of checking in time) from America, and it will arrive in Israel post 
Pesach.

What should he do (if he needs to do anything)?

b) [this is more interesting]
A merchant has a lot of goods on consignment.  They do not belong to him. 
They belong to a merchant from the States and he just sells them for a 
commission.  They are chametz.

If he sells them with his chametz -- he can't really, b/c you can't sell 
what you don't own.

If the owner is a non-Jew, this is also not a problem .

But, what should he do if the owner is Jewish, but he's afraid that if he 
asks him to sign a paper making him his Shaliach to sell the chametz in 
Israel, this guy may stop doing business with him b/c as he happens not to 
be religious (or worse) and the whole thing makes him suspicious that the 
merchant in Israel is trying to rob him in some way, and the Israeli 
merchant would then completely lose his livelihood.

Solutions?

Shoshana L. Boublil

R' Elliott Shevin wrote:
> My own rav (Eliezer Cohen of Oak Park, MI) invoked a psak that nefilas apaim
> should be done wherever one is davening, Yerushalayim or not, sefer torah or not
> (and, I presume, makom kavuah or not). The logic is simple: you're not
> petitioning a sefer torah; you're petitioning HKBH, Who is everywhere.

Thats said, the RMO in SA OC 131:2 says "Some say that NA is only
where there's a ST... and this is the minhag."

The Be'er Heitev brings the SKNH"K (who's that?) in the name of the
Rokeach that "if there are other seforim they have the din of a ST,
and that's what we rely on nowadays."

The MB doesn't mention this possibility. He discusses the various
scenarios of davening outside the sanctuary and paskens that if the
shul is locked then you don't do NA.

- Danny

> another book which is
abbreviated as bet-reish-chaf-yud, 131.

Birchei Yosef, by the Chid"a

Akiva

On 3/15/07, Danny Schoemann <doniels@gmail.com> wrote:
> R' Elliott Shevin wrote:
> > My own rav (Eliezer Cohen of Oak Park, MI) invoked a psak that nefilas apaim
> > should be done wherever one is davening, Yerushalayim or not, sefer torah or not
> > (and, I presume, makom kavuah or not). The logic is simple: you're not
> > petitioning a sefer torah; you're petitioning HKBH, Who is everywhere.
>
> Thats said, the RMO in SA OC 131:2 says "Some say that NA is only
> where there's a ST... and this is the minhag."
>
> The Be'er Heitev brings the SKNH"K (who's that?) in the name of the
> Rokeach that "if there are other seforim they have the din of a ST,
> and that's what we rely on nowadays."

Not SKNH"G? That would be the Sheyare Kenesset Hagedola.

David Finch writes:

>In Judaism, on the other hand, there is no "salvation," i.e., a
>guaranteed ticket to heaven. We have no mechanism to wash away our
>sins, especially our original sin, which doesn't exist. .... As
>for ritual, I imagine that Rambam (among many others, including
>especially RYBS) would recoil at the notion that Jews observe mitzvot
>primarily (or robotically) for the sake of atonement or eternal reward.

But see http://mail-jewish.org/rav/talmud_torah.txt where RYBS states (in
the last paragraph):
"halacha ... is a living, dynamic discipline which was given to man in order
to redeem him and to save him."

With respect to Talmud Torah (the subject of the RYGB v. Colleague dispute),
he writes that "talmud torah [is] a redemptive, cathartic, and inspiring
reality."  Surely, RYGB's colleague would argue that, a la RYBS, all
talmidim deserve an equal oportunity for "redemption."

Jacob
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On Fri, 09 Mar 2007 15:32:51 EST, RYGB wrote:
: I have an ongoing debate with one of my colleagues at MTA. Were he not
: Jewish, he would be Catholic, and he believes that a la Catholicism,
: mitzvos are meant to have a salvational effect on us.

But then around an hour later (16:28:07) he forwarded this clarification from
his colleague:
:> I think this is a fair representation of my view of mitzvos but I'd
:> like to have "salvific" defined as "metaphysical effect upon the
:> neshamah and upon the spiritual fabric of the cosmos leading to the
:> soul achieving a better place after death."

Now I compare this to RYGB's description of his own position in the first email:
: I, OTOH, believe that mitzvos are meant to have a refining impact on us
: - and that applies even to the most obscure and mystical rites we possess.

I see very little difference. I am not sure how Rav Colleague's (RC)
"metaphysical effect on the neshmah" which "lead[s] to the soul achieving a
better place after death" differs from RYBS's "refining impact.

The differences are:
1- RC writes in terms of sechar va'onesh where RYGB doesn't go there. Not sure
if this is a substansive disagreement.

2- RC adds in about the impact of the mitzvah beyond the individual doing it,
"metaphysical effect ... upon the spiritual fabric of the cosmos". This
actually makes his position seem /less/ salvific in a Xian sense.

3- RYGB is more specific about what changes in the soul, and thus has an
explanation that focuses more on mitzvos whose impact is comprehensible. He
therefore needs to add that it "applies even" to what I take to be chuqim.

I think it's this third point that is the source of the chiluq WRT gemara
be'iyun.

However, I think there is a totally different assumption going on here that is
more fundamental.

: On this basis, [RC] justifies the teaching of Gemara b'Iyun to lower-track
: students - viz., it has a salvific effect even if they gain little
: enlightenment from it.

: As such, I have great difficulty justifying the almost pointless
: instruction of the lower levels in Gemara b'Iyun. Better to teach them
: Sefer HaChinuch.

However, you do see that there is a refining impact to chuqim of even the most
obscure and mystical nature. If you do not expect to be able to know every
means of refinement, why do you limit the value of learning to things you can
understand?

Perhaps be'iyun works on a choq level for them? I think RC assumes it does,
and that's the real difference between you. As he writes:
:> Either it's all supra rational or its just silly.

I also have comments on the topic of educational syllabus for Areivim.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

RYGB posted on Avodah a debate he is having with a colleague at MTA. I
addressed the hashkafic issues there. The more lemaaseh aspect I want to take
here.

First, a caveat: I have a son who hopes to enter MTA, and he has reading
difficulties that will keep him from the top track. I'm nogei'ah bedavar.

RYGB wrote:
: As such, I have great difficulty justifying the almost pointless
: instruction of the lower levels in Gemara b'Iyun. Better to teach them
: Sefer HaChinuch.

As my son is a case in point. He would have no problem following the be'iyun,
if he didn't have to deal with reading the texts. As he is significantly above
grade level in math, I have little doubt (and a father's confidence and pride)
that he could follow a tife sevarah with the best of 'em. Should he be
deprived?

In general: IQ is a fiction in that intelligence can't be reduced to a single
number. Different people can gain different things from be'iyun, they needn't
get everything out of it to get /something/.

In an extreme case where there is simply no comprehension at all: Someone who
sits in a shiur and gets blinded by arguments that go over his head still has
the emotional experience of knowing that there is a beautiful edifice behind
the practices -- even if he can't understand it. Many of the people who are
"blinded by science" are the biggest believers in its truth.

Last, the lower tracks cover less. I presume that unless it is graded on a
curve, the A student in a lower track learned the same percentage of the
material taught. It might still be be'iyun, but with less iyun. So in effect,
you are advising an all-or-nothing to replace the more-or-less spectrum that
is already there.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter



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