Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 79

Sun, 15 Apr 2007

• 1. Re: not working on chol hamoed (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: 10 pieces of Chometz (T613K@aol.com)
• 3. Re: The Heter of Davar She Eino Mischavin by a Star-K Oven (Elliott Shevin)
• 4. Re: not working on chol hamoed (Daniel Israel)
• 5. Re: The Heter of Davar She Eino Mischavin by a Star-K Oven (Michael Kopinsky)
• 6. Star-K's heter to use electricity on Yom Tov (Moshe Feldman)
• 7. The Heter of Davar She Eino Mischavin by a Star-K (D&E-H Bannett)
• 8. Re: Peanuts (D&E-H Bannett)
• 9. Re: Peanuts and other Kitnios (Dov Bloom)
• 10. Re: The Heter of Davar She Eino Mischavin by a Star-K Oven (Rich, Joel)
• 11. Re: R Asher Weiss (saul mashbaum)

On Fri, April 13, 2007 12:41 pm, Chana Luntz wrote:
: Let us say that the discussion was not about chol hamoed but about
: shabbas.  Ie that the cousin was told that if she did not come in on
: shabbas she would be greatly penalized....

She is being forced to choose between being "greatly penalized" (which I am
assuming is a hefseid merubah, since that's pretty much a translation, though I
don't know the penalty) and being forced to violate geneivah.

Is geneivah in such a case huterah or dechuyah?

I ask because being forced to violate geneivah is also an undesirable. I'm
trying to understand if it qualifies as a hefseid merubah.

Tir'u baTov, and Gut Shabbos or Gut Voch!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

 
 
_MPoppers@kayescholer.com_ (mailto:MPoppers@kayescholer.com)  wrote:  >>OK, 
so  let's say the reason for this minhag isn't related to  the
chashash of a  b'rachah l'vatalah. << to which I  responded, 


>>But it is.  Why waste time  thinking about a counterfactual  hypothesis?<<

 


In response, someone sent me the following letter off-list:
 
==begin quote==
 
Is this based on research that you did?
The poskim basically conclude  that the issue is NOT brocho levatolo.
Nonetheless, they say to continue this  minhog, as there are other reasons
for it. See, for example, the Chok Yaakov  432:14 (printed in every
standard Shulchan Aruch, who brings reasons to do it  - none relating to
brocho levatolo. There are other halachik reasons (in  addition to
kabbalistic ones relating to 10 pieces etc).
 
==end quote==
 
I must admit that I did no research and stand corrected.  But I would  like 
to know some of the other reasons.






--Toby  Katz
=============




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Harry Maryles wrote >The only Heter I can think of is the same one used when we open refrigerator >doors. It is a Davar SheEino Mischavin and not a Psik Reisha...  Some say that an >oven's "window of opportunity" for it not to be a Psik Reisha is almost nil making it >impractical to apply the " Fridge door heter" to an oven. I believe it remains an >open Shiala. It seems to me if the oven flame is already lit when the door opens, you have a counterexample that would rule out psik reisha.  Going in the opposite direction, closing the oven door when the flame is lit will hasten the time when it's extinguished. But again, it's a davar sheeino mischavin and, since it's often not lit when you open the door, not a psik reisha.
 
I don't see how the refrigerator is different from the oven, except in one trait 
the Star-K site mentions: the oven will produce a flame, but the refrigerator's 
compressor only produces sparks which might be considered insignificant. 
Otherwise, their operation is the same: opening the door MIGHT hasten the 
startup of the compressor, and closing it MIGHT hasten its shutting down, 
but no psik reisha in either case. 
 
If anything, putting food in the refrigerator is more likely to be hachana, since you 
want to preserve leftovers you won't be eating that day; you're much more likely to 
be consuming what you've left in the oven on the same Shabbos.
 Shabbat shalom! (I waver between "Askenazis" and "Sephardit" too. Sue me. <g>)
Elly
"Striving to bring Torah Judaism into the 58th century"
_________________________________________________________________
Take a break and play crossword puzzles - FREE!
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On Fri, 13 Apr 2007 10:41:55 -0600 Chana Luntz 
<chana@kolsassoon.org.uk> wrote:
>I think you can see where I am going.  If you hold that it is 
assur to
>work on chol hamoed, and the employer (a Jew noch) is improperly 
trying
>to get her to be over on an issur - why is there a choshen mishpat
>problem about her failing to give him a proper day's work.  He is 
not
>entitled to her work on that day, and ought to be giving her a 
>holiday, in the same way as an employer is required to allow a Jew 
to 
>observe shabbas (despite losing a seventh of the possible working 
week 
>to shabbas) and should not be penalizing the Jew for observing 
>shabbas.

Obviously a Jewish employer can't require (or even allow) a Jewish 
employee to work on shabbos, but your arguement above seems to 
imply that the Jewish employer is obligated to give _paid_ 
vacation.  (Use the example of Yom Tov instead of Shabbos, and the 
case is clearer.)  In this case she is getting paid, not using up 
any allocated vacation time, and also not working.  Perhaps a beis 
din would consider that a reasonable knas, but the halacha doesn't 
necessarily impose it.

As a practical issue, if she is in danger of losing her job for not 
coming in (as opposed to simply losing a day's pay, which is 
exactly what she is mechuyav in) then there is a practical problem: 
if she refuses to accept payment for that day, she effectively 
informs on herself resulting in her being fired.  But that doesn't 
remove the CM issue of accepting payment for work she didn't do.

--
Daniel M. Israel
dmi1@cornell.edu

On 4/13/07, Elliott Shevin <eshevin@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> If anything, putting food in the refrigerator is more likely to be
> hachana, since you
> want to preserve leftovers you won't be eating that day; you're much more
> likely to
> be consuming what you've left in the oven on the same Shabbos.
>

See 39 Melochos p. 112:
"Simple, non-strenuous activities that are done *routinely and effortlessly
by people as a matter of course*  (without any conscious thought that the
act is a beneficial act of preparation) are in fact not Hachono, even when
intended for post-Shabbos needs."
[brings fridge as example]
"Hachono is forbidden only when the Hachono-activity by its very nature
bespeaks preparation.  Commonplace activities in which the concept of
preparing for anything is remote from people's minds are not Hachono.  In
such situations, there is no preception of Tircha."

He brings Shmiras Shabbos K'hilchasa 28:81 as a makor.

Michael
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torahmike@gmail.com wrote on Areivim:
<<
  Over Yom Tov, I came across the following huge kula of the Star-K,
in the booklet they distribute with their certified yom-tov ovens:
 Electricity is muttar to use on yom tov, as long as one does not
physically observe the effects. Therefore, they alllow you to
actually press buttons on an electric keypad on yom tov itself.
       Both of these are on their website:
         http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-cooking-ovenyomtov.htm
       This chiddush is certainly against the widely quoted view of
the chazzon ish, that electricity is boneh.  Why would the
fact that you can't see the effects of your keypad pressing make it mutar?
>>

See Rabbi Broyde and Rabbi Jachter's article, "The Use of Electricity
on Shabbat and Yom Tov" (originally appeared in the RJJ Journal number
XXI), reprinted at
http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/english/journal/broyde_1.htm

Some excerpts:
<<The Chazon Ish's position has aroused great debate among halachic
scholars. The most vigorous and thorough critique of this position is
found in the eleventh chapter of Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach's work,
the Minchat Shlomo. While Rabbi Auerbach advances numerous critiques
of the Chazon Ish's position, the most crucial aspect of his criticism
is that opening a circuit which is designed to be opened and closed
routinely cannot be considered an act of building or destroying.24
Closing a circuit is analogous to closing a door - an action which the
halacha does not consider to be "building" since the door is intended
to be opened and closed constantly.25

The overwhelming majority of halachic decisors appears to side with
Rabbi Auerbach. As the Encyclopedia Talmudit (18:166) states:

From the writing of numerous achronim it appears that turning on an
electrical circuit does not violate the prohibition of fixing an
object [metaken mana and ma'keh bepatish] or building [boneh].26

Nevertheless, at the very least halachic authorities do take into
consideration the opinion of the Chazon Ish on this issue when
rendering decisions regarding electricity.
<snip>
Rabbi Auerbach (Minchat Shlomo 74, 84), after rejecting all the
potential sources discussed above for prohibiting the use of
electricity when no light or heat is generated, concludes that, at
least in theory, electrical appliances that use no heat or light
(e.g., a fan) are permitted on Shabbat and Yom Tov. However, he
declines actually to permit their use absent urgent need. He states:

In my opinion there is no prohibition [to use electricity] on Shabbat
or Yom Tov... There is no prohibition of ma'keh bepatish or molid...
(However, I [Rabbi Auerbach] am afraid that the masses will err and
turn on incandescent lights on Shabbat, and thus I do not permit
electricity absent great need...) ... This matter requires further
analysis.
. . . .
However, the key point in my opinion is that there is no prohibition
to use electricity on Shabbat unless the electricity causes a
prohibited act like cooking or starting a flame.

Rabbi Auerbach additionally states that since the tradition forbids
the use of electricity, and this tradition received near unanimous
approval from rabbinic authorities in the normal course of events
observant Jews should accept this tradition (even though he feels it
is based on incorrect premises) and operate under the presumption that
the use of electricity without light or heat is a violation, of
rabbinic origin, based on molid.41 Only in the case of urgent need
does he allow one to rely on his opinion that electricity is permitted
where no heat or light is generated.

<snip>
A number of rabbinic authorities, including Rabbi Tzvi Pesach Frank
and Rabbi Yechiel Michel Epstein (the author of the Aruch Hashulchan),
accepted the approach that permitted turning on lights on Yom Tov.52
However, this is not the approach of most authorities.
<snip>
It also appears that any authority who permits turning on lights on
Yom Tov (except perhaps for those who do so based on the indirect
causation analysis, see note 55) must agree with the position of Rabbi
Auerbach that there is no halachic obstacle to using electricity when
no light and heat are produced.
>>

Kol tuv,
Moshe

Re:  <<when we open refrigerator doors. It is a Davar 
SheEino Mischavin and not a Psik Reisha. The fridge motor 
does not automatically go on if we don't hold the door open 
too long. The same is true for an oven WRT its heating 
coils. The big difference is how long the door must remain 
open for it to be a Psik Reisha. By a Fridge, it is a lot 
longer than by an oven. Some say that an oven's "window of 
opportunity" for it not to be a Psik Reisha is almost nil 
making it impractical to apply the " Fridge door heter"  to 
an oven. I believe it remains an open Shiala.>>

Unless you consider causing a motor to rotate to be its 
boneh, how can you compare the two cases?  Does the Torah 
state "Lo t'va'aru eish"  or does it say "Lo t'sovev 
manoa'"?

David 

To join the few who remember when peanuts were not yet 
kitniyot, I repeat what I wrote to Avodah at least once in 
the past:

My family, not very hareidi, used oil on Pesach with a 
heksher.  The very chareidi did not trust any oil except 
that made by Mr. Zupnick.  The only oil they used was 
Zupnick's Peanut Oil.

This year, after the first day at my son's home, we went to 
a hotel for the rest of Pesach. A "non-sh'ruya" hotel, r"l. 
Having fulfilled the mitzva of kneidlach at the seder and 
matza brei at the start of chol hamoed, I managed without 
them after that. But, the newly invented peanuts are now 
kitniyot and the later addition of soya were not for me. I 
thank God daily that they are not yet a universally accepted 
Ashkenazi custom. I took with me six peanut macaroons made 
with soy bean oil, one for each day.


David

Danny Schoemann quoted his cousin's kuntras Dinei Kitnios B'Pesach (Adar 5767) and compared peanuts to canola (rapeseed).  He states:
>Peanuts:
>- Are apparently sometimes made into flour.
>- Machlokes if it grows on/in a Sharvit
>- Are not Midi D'Midgan
>Canola:
>- Are never made into flour as it's not edible (Avnei Nezer 373)
>- Do grow in/on a Sharvit
>- Are a Midi D'Midgan
>Clearly there's a case to forbid Canola and not Peanuts.

Peanuts - machloket if it grows on a sharvit? 

 Peanuts grow under the ground !! The nodules develop when a "peg" grows down from under the fertilized flower and goes underground. To harvest peanuts one uproots the entire plant including the roots and all the peanut nodules underground and one lets it dry somewhat above ground or by hanging the whole thing up if you just have a few plants (the plant shrivels up and the dirt dries up and falls off). Then you can collect and break the peanuts shells off of the plant. 

Note that none of the standard kitniot  grow underground .

If sharvit is a stalk (like in megilat Esther) like a classic grain with the seeds coming off the sides of the stalk - like wheat, barley, rye etc etc. I find it hard to believe that anyone who ever raised/picked/or-saw-a-pre-harvested-peanut-plant and post-harvested-peanut-plant and who saw how classic grains grow could claim peanuts grow on a sharvit. Millet and rice would be though. 

If sharvit is a pod (like in Rambam Hil Tumat Ochlin 5:9  - Sharvit Kitniot sherikno tahor) - it is still a stretch to call peanuts kitniot just because of the shell, because again, no oher kitniot that has pods develop underground.

There is however another criteria mentioned by poskim including rishonim: maaseh kedeira - dating back to the first source the Smak.

WRT canola - how can canola be a midi DMidgan? they are not staked in a kri!,Neither are they maase kdeira -who ever cooked a dish of rapeseed? Rapeseed is grown only for oil, and not for eating; canola is GE rapeseed.  So what is the case for calling canola pesach kitniot, I never got it. Anyway it is one of those new minhagim only a decade or 2 old at most so it shouldn't count for much as minhagim go. 

In general, other posters mentioned that 40-30-20 years ago peanut oil was "mehudar" for Pesach, so where was there a location in the US that one could claim in America they had an established minhag that it is kitniot?  See Mikraei Kodesh of RZP Frank -chief Rabbi of Jrusalem  helek bet Hil' Pesach 60:2

RMF tshuva about peanuts was mentioned by many posters, but no one mentioned Sridei Eish helek Bet Siman 37 (2) where he discusses 
peanut oil and is Matir, 

Also R David Tzvi Hoffman in Shut Melamed Leho'il helek aleph 88 discusses the botany and commercial production of peanuts, is matir peanut oil. He mentions that they grow in a sharvit (pod) but doesn't care and says that is like almonds which grow in a pod. 

Oops, maybe I shouldn't mention that because next year someone will start holding almonds to be kitniot and 20 years later it will gain a substantial following...

In general the criteria of sharvit for kitniot on pesach seems relatively new. Was it ever mentioned by a Rishon? The Smak who I think is the first Rishon to mention the minhag not to eat kitniot doesn't mention it.
Rabbenu Yerucham who criticized the minhag doesn't either, nor the Maharil.
It was I believe originated by the Taz OH 453 1 - only to explain why mustard is kitniot. If anyone knows of an earlier or independent reference of sharvit as a definitive criteria I would like to know of it. It was used as an independent criteria by chassidim (Avnei Nezer ). It doesn't seem to be such a universal criteria. 

See 39 Melochos p. 112:
"Simple, non-strenuous activities that are done routinely and
effortlessly by people as a matter of course  (without any conscious
thought that the act is a beneficial act of preparation) are in fact not
Hachono, even when intended for post-Shabbos needs." 
[brings fridge as example]
"Hachono is forbidden only when the Hachono-activity by its very nature
bespeaks preparation.  Commonplace activities in which the concept of
preparing for anything is remote from people's minds are not Hachono.
In such situations, there is no preception of Tircha." 
 
He brings Shmiras Shabbos K'hilchasa 28:81 as a makor.
 
 
========================================================================
=========
 
This is consistent with what I was taught but have always had a hard
time drawing a circle around.  For example, is the measure "people" or
the individual involved?
KT
Joel Rich 

 
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RMKopinsky wrote:
>>>
This question reminds me of an argument I heard advanced in my early elementary school years....  The school had a program collecting the opener thing at the top of soda (or in this case, apple juice) cans for some tzedaka thing.  The argument was, "If you give the top to tzedaka yourself, you get one mitzvah, of giving your bottle top to tzedaka.  If you give it to me, you get the zchus of letting me have a mitzvah, as well as the zchus that your bottle top ended up in tzedaka." 

>>

Consider the following scenario: a poor person, let's call him Moishie gives his friend, Shloimie, also a poor person, $100 as tzedaka (even though Moishie owes many times that amount). Shloimie promply gives the $100 to Moishie as tzedaka. The friends continue to give the $100 to one another, doing this dozens of times. Ultimately Moishie sees that Shloimie will not keep the $100, although he wants him to, and puts it in back his wallet. Now Moishie and Shloimie are each exactly as impoverished as before, but each has the tremendous zchut of having given thousands of dollars to tzedaka!

I doubt that this really "works" in the heavenly beit din,  but not being privy to the proceedings of this most Supreme Court of all, I can't really be sure.

Saul Mashbaum
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