Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 83

Thu, 19 Apr 2007

• 1. Re: Yom Haatzmaut and Behab (Moshe Yehuda Gluck)
• 2. Re: [Areivim] Interesting article in weekly Hamodia (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: R Asher Weiss (T613K@aol.com)
• 4. Re: days of yom haazmaut (Simon Montagu)
• 5. Re: When do the malachim come (Yaakov Moser)
• 6. Re: Yom Haatzmaut and Behab (Danny Schoemann)
• 7. Yom Haatzmaut and Behab (Shalom Berger)
• 8. Yom Ha`atzma'ut vs. 5 Iyyar (David E Cohen)
• 9. Re: R Asher Weiss (Arie Folger)
• 10. Re: When do the malachim come (Marty Bluke)
• 11. Re: When do the malachim come (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 12. Re: Torah study vs. other contributions to society (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 13. Re: Mincha (Marty Bluke)
• 14. Re: When do the malachim come (SBA)
• 15. Re: Yom Haatzmaut and Behab (SBA)
• 16. Re: Miriam and Aharon (SBA)

R' Marty Bluke:
*The answers that I received that Yom Haatzmaut is pushed off until
*Tuesday, actually raises more questions. How exactly does that work al
*pi halacha? Does this apply in Chutz Laaretz where the chillul shabbos
*question is not relevant? That would be quite interesting, people in
*America saying Hallel on Monday and people in Israel saying hallel on
*Tuesday.


If Yom HaAtzmaut needs to have Hallel said on it, it is only because of the
original institution of the practice, which, presumably, was made with this
stipulation in mind. 

KT,
MYG

On Thu, April 19, 2007 4:29 am, R Samuel Svarc wrote to Areivim:
: In this weeks Hamodia, Section E, first page, there is an interesting
: article titled, "His Brain Made Him Do It". Some excerpts follow.

: "The American legal system may never be the same again, if breakthroughs in
: neuroscience continue to gain acceptance in court. Recent advances in the
: study of the human brain indicate that malformations or damage to parts of
: the brain can account for violent behavior beyond the control of the
: perpetrator. Criminal behavior that was once blamed on social conditions or
: parental abuse are now being blamed on the brain."

: And this tragically apropos one, "In 1966 at the University of Texas,
: Charles Whitman went on a murderous rampage, killing 15 people before being
: shot down by police officers. Whitman was discovered after an autopsy to
: have a tumor that was putting pressure on his amygdala."

: For those of us who don't know what an amygdala is, like myself, I'll paste
: the definition.

: "An almond-shaped neural structure in the anterior part of the temporal lobe
: of the cerebrum; intimately connected with the hypothalamus and the
: hippocampus and the cingulate gyrus; as part of the limbic system it plays
: an important role in motivation and emotional behavior"


I have a blog entry at <http://tinyurl.com/yxwr7h> which deals with the
neshamah-brain question in a way that IMHO resolves such questions.

Beqitzur, as a teaser to get you to chase the link:

Using the "atzilus" model for creation, physical objects can be seen as the
spot of the Light of shefa as it hits the wall of olam ha'asiyah.

NhC defines the neshamah as being unique in that it contains the unity of all
the kochos of all the olamos. It is not a slice of a "beam of shefa", but the
beam in its entirety.

The brain is where that same beam is embodied on the physical plane.

The connection between neshamah and brain is therefore not causal, not two
things where one triggers events in the other. And yet by saying that the
brain is the manifestation of the neshamah in this imperfect physical world, I
am not saying the two are identical.

Please read the full entry before commenting.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

 
 

>>
>>"V'im ein lo, machlif im chaveiro, zeh sholeich l'zeh  seudaso v'zeh 
sholeiach l'zeh seudaso.... 
>>

Can anyone see why  this is mentioned (by Chazal)  by mishloah manot, but not 
by matanot  l'evyomin?<<

Saul Mashbaum 




>>>>>
Seems to me that the two cases have different purposes.  The purpose  of 
shalach manos is much like the purpose of Areivim -- to create a chavershaft,  
friendly feelings and unity between Jews.  The obvious way to do that is  for me 
to send you gifts and you to send me gifts.  The purpose of matanos  
le'evyonim is to make sure that the poor are provided for.  If two poor  people each 
give each other their last piece of bread, neither one's situation  has been 
ameliorated, and the purpose of matanos le'evyonim has not been  achieved.


--Toby  Katz
=============



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20070418/26ee8724/attachment.htm 

On 4/18/07, Eli Turkel <eliturkel@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> the 5th of iyar is the same day as the seventh day of Pesach
> or the same as erev pesach. Hence the 5th of iyar can fall out on
> friday,shabbat,monday or wednesday.
> In the first three cases yom hazikaron/tom haazmaut is pushed off.
> Thus the chances of yom haazmaut falling on the 5th of iyar is about 25%
>

Excuse me for a pedantic correction. It would be 25% if friday, shabbat,
monday and wednesday were equally likely in the first place, but they aren't
because of the dehiyot of rosh hashana. "Lo Ido Rosh" makes the 5th of Iyar
on a wednesday when the molad of tishrei is on either friday or shabbat, so
the total chance is 2 in 7, not 1 in 4, i.e. about 28.5%. (The effects of
Molad Zaken cancel out, and the other dehiyot aren't a factor here).
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20070419/a20f1291/attachment.html 

>
> As I understand it, the poskim take Malachim very seriously. An uncle of
> mine once recounted a Machlokes between R' MF and RYBS (sorry, I have no
> Mareh Mekomos) as to what direction one should turn for Bo'ee B'shalom
> when the entrance of the Shul is not in back. IIRC, the Machlokes
> revolved upon their respective understandings of how Malachim act - no
> cynicism or Chassidism involved. 
>
> KT,
> MYG
>
>
> I have not heard of the R'YBS R'MF machloket but have heard 2 reasons
> given for turning towards back.  One that the shchina is in the west and
> since in the "standard' galut shul (e.g. europe) the aron faces east and
> the doors are in the west (so walk in facing aron), you turn around
> (which happens to be where the doors are) - the prescriptive fetail is
> the west.   Others say prescriptive detail is doors (to greet the
> shchina)
> KT
> Joel Rich
>   



RHS brings the RMF-RYBS in Nefesh HaRav page 157 - RYBS held it was to 
greet Shabbat, and thus he and other Gedolim in Europe would walk to the 
door to greet the Shabbat bride coming through the door. RMF holds it is 
for the Shechina, which is always in the West, even if the door is in 
another directions. See there for sources.

Jason Moser
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20070419/7bc39bd6/attachment.htm 

> That would be quite interesting, people in America saying Hallel
> on Monday and people in Israel saying hallel on Tuesday.

How would this be different from:
- Purim and Shushan Purim?

- Last day of Yom Tov in chu"l? (Which is why in EY we don't say
Lamenatze'ach on Isru Chag.)

- Danny

<<
The answers that I received that Yom Haatzmaut is pushed off until
Tuesday, actually raises more questions. How exactly does that work al
pi halacha? Does this apply in Chutz Laaretz where the chillul shabbos
question is not relevant? That would be quite interesting, people in
America saying Hallel on Monday and people in Israel saying hallel on
Tuesday.
>>

What would be more "interesting" is people in America saying Hallel on 
Monday while people in Israel are commemorating the soldiers who were killed 
defending the Jews of Medinat Yisrael.

It is probably simplest for me to refer you to the discussion of this point 
on Lookjed a few years back, when the Rabbanut position was established - 
see http://www.lookstein.org/lookjed/read.php?f=1&;i=3741&t=3741 - where I 
quoted Rav Gedalia Schwartz' letter to the RCA.

In another post there, I refer to two articles that appeared in HaTzofeh (in 
Hebrew) at the time, which may be of interest -

Rav Yaakov Ariel, Chief Rabbi of Ramat Gan presented the practical and
Halakhic reasoning behind the change appears at http://tinyurl.com/2p2mq

Rav Yisrael Rozen head of Machon Tzomet (and a neighbor of mine in Alon
Shevut) argued with both at http://tinyurl.com/3y6jg pointing out (among
other things) that now the only time Yom HaAtzmaut will fall out on the
5th of Iyar will be when it occurs on a Wednesday.

Shalom

Rabbi Shalom Z. Berger, Ed.D.
The Lookstein Center for Jewish Education in the Diaspora
School of Education
Bar-Ilan University
http://www.lookstein.org
Blogging at http://schmoozed.lookstein.org/ 

R' Marty Bluke wrote:
> How exactly does that work al pi halacha? Does this apply in
> Chutz Laaretz where the chillul shabbos question is not
> relevant? That would be quite interesting, people in
> America saying Hallel on Monday and people in Israel saying
> hallel on Tuesday.

Stritcly speaking, the chillul Shabbos issue is not directly relevant to the
Hallel question in Israel either.

There is a sevara to always say Hallel on 5 Iyyar (the exact day on which
Jewish sovereignty in Eretz Yisra'el was restored), and there is a sevara to
say Hallel on the day that's being observed on Yom Ha`atzma'ut (since the
miracles surrounding the establishment of the State took place on many
different dates, if we're going to give shevach for it on one particular
day, it might as well be the day that the country is celebrating it).

In theory, either sevara could be applied anywhere.  However, in Israel,
where Yom Ha'atzma`ut is celebrated as a public holiday, it would "seem
strange" to say Hallel on a different day, so to the best of my knowledge,
everybody who says Hallel follows the second sevara.  Additionaly, the Chief
Rabbinate has decided this way, and most of the shuls that are saying Hallel
at all follow its ruling in the matter.  In chutz la'aretz, where saying
Hallel might be the only way in which many working people are marking Yom
Ha`atzma'ut at all, and where there is no "central authority" like the Chief
Rabbinate, the second sevara doesn't carry as much weight, and there are a
few local rabbanim (though definitely a minority, in my experience in chu"l)
who pasken according to the first sevara and always say Hallel on 5 Iyyar.

I wonder if this would have turned out differently had the frequency of Yom
Ha'atzma'ut actually being observed on 5 Iyyar always been as low as it is
now.  Initially, it was always observed on 5 Iyyar, 100% of the time.  In
5718, the rule was adopted that pushes Yom Ha`atzma'ut back to Thursday when
5 Iyyar falls on Friday or Shabbos, leaving it on 5 Iyyar 60% of the time.
Only in 5764 was the rule adopted that pushes Yom Ha`atzma'ut to Tuesday
when 5 Iyyar falls on Monday, leaving 5 Iyyar to be observed as Yom
Ha`atzma'ut only when it falls on a Wednesday, 29% of the time.

--D.C.

RSMashbaum asked:
> > See SA OC 696:4 (talking about Mishloach Manos): "V'im ein lo, machlif im
> > chaveiro, zeh sholeich l'zeh seudaso v'zeh sholeiach l'zeh seudaso k'dei
> > l'kayem umishloach manos ish l'rei'eihu." Not a complete parallel, but
> > there is a similarity...
>
> Can anyone see why this is mentioned (by Chazal) ?by mishloah manot, but
> not by matanot l'evyomin?

Obvious: the purpose of MM is to increase friendship, which is the result of 
showing how much you think about your friends. It is, in a sense, a mere 
token. However, 'Hazal legislated that MM be related to the Purim meal, and 
hence it should be substantive. Since with the subterfuge mentioned in the 
SA, the spirit of MM is still maintained, pulling such a trick is permissible 
when circumstances demand it.

Matanot leevyonim is however tzedaqah. The purpose is helping the poor, not 
just being nice to them. It is about giving them that, which they can't 
afford at all (the Purim meal, but also taking care of their other needs). 
Hence, the subterfuge would not be in the spirit of this obligation, and 
therefore wouldn't work.

BTW, this matter is a classical case of haaramah in halakhah, some of which is 
permissible (hetter 'isqa, mekhirat 'hametz), some of which isn't 
(hetter 'isqa to a poor man with no expected revenues).

PS: this thread should get a more meaningful name. There is no way Yankel 
Internet User would understand this thread is meaningful for him when he is 
researching fulfilling mitzvot in unusual ways when the standard ways aren't 
fully available (I need a better name, but this comment will allow search 
engines to index the topic a bit, a tiny bit, better).
KT,
-- 
Arie Folger
http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com

The machlokes RYBS and R' Moshe about which way to turn is brought
down in Nefesh Harav. RYBS held that you always turn to the door
because of the malachim and R' Moshe held that you turn to the West
because the shechina is in the West.

R' Joel Rich:
> I know of shuls ... that have a mesora of
> just facing the back - not sure of basis.

The logic has always been apparent to me: Why would a malach need a 
door?

Akiva Miller

R' Doron Beckerman wrote:
> Had the GRA known practical medicine, ... his father felt that
> it was not comparable to the value of the extra Torah study
> the Gaon could accomplish.

and he asked:
> Does the Torah UMadda accept this approach as part of its
> Hashkafa, and, if so, how?

Very simple. Yes, TuM does accept this approach, namely, if Torah 
study is what you excel at doing, then go for it. There's nothing in 
TuM which would want to prevent the world from having excellent 
rabbis. TuM simply acknowledges that there *IS* value in other 
studies, but chalilah that it would put them *above* Torah.

Akiva Miller

I wrote:
<With regards to being mekabel shabbos, eating and then davening maariv
later, RHS mentioned in the name of the Rav (who I believe said it in
the name of the Gra) the following problem with that. He explained
that the 3 meals on Shabbos are each supposed to come after the
corresponding tefila. The meal at night after maariv, the morning meal
after shacharis and the third meal after mincha. I don't remember the
<exact reason why the meals are connected to the tefillas.

I found where RHS quotes this in the name of the Rav (Beis Yitzhak
1992 p. 60) and what the reason is.

The kedushas hayom of Shabbos is not mechayev you in simcha and
therefore oneg shabbos is a side mitzva and not part of the identity
of the day. Shabbos is supposed to be a day dedicated to Hashem.
Therefore he said, to eat the meal on Shabbos you need a matir, the
tefila. Because of this each meal is preceded by a tefila. He pointed
out that it is mashma like this from the Rambam as well. The Rambam
writes (Hilchos Shabbos 30:10) what the seder hayom of a person should
be and he writes that you daven then eat both regarding
Shacharis/Musaf and Mincha. He seems to be saying that this (first
daven then eat) is the proper way of doing things.

From: "Rich, Joel" <>
... a Machlokes between R' MF and RYBS (sorry, I have no
Mareh Mekomos) as to what direction one should turn for Bo'ee B'shalom
when the entrance of the Shul is not in back..
>>

Which reminds me of a cute reason I heard for turning around and
facing the back of Shul at Boyee Besholom.

Shabbos is 'me'eyn olam habo'.

And we know that in Olam Habo, 'elyonim lemato vetachtonim lemaaloh'.

Thus now as we are mekabel Shabbos, and the whole Shul turns around -
suddenly all those who were right at the back are now in the front and vice
versa - an example of of 'elyonim lemato and tachtonim lemaaloh' .

SBA

From: "Marty Bluke" <>
The answers that I received that Yom Haatzmaut is pushed off until
Tuesday, actually raises more questions. How exactly does that work al
pi halacha? Does this apply in Chutz Laaretz where the chillul shabbos
question is not relevant? That would be quite interesting, people in
America saying Hallel on Monday and people in Israel saying hallel on
Tuesday.
>>

But not as interesting as some people saying Hallel with others saying 
Tachnun.. 

SBA

From: "Doron Beckerman" <>
See Avos D' Rabbi Nosson Perek 9:2, that Aharon was not the primary talker
(or perhaps,  was not talkative generally?) and therefore his punishment of
Tzaraas (if it happened at all - see Sugya  Shabbos 97a) was not made clear
( i.e. the Tzaraas that he got for just a moment, was transferred to
Miriam).
>>>>

Emek HaNetziv on Sifri writes that because of 'kvod kehunosoy' of Aharon,
HKBH pitied him and placed the tzoraas on Miriam - which when Aharon saw
this - it caused him pain.

For some additional similar sources see Pardes Yosef Hachosdosh Bamidbor 1,
p. 480.

SBA



------------------------------


Avodah mailing list
Avodah@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 23, Issue 83
**************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."