Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 141

Wed, 27 Jun 2007

• 1. Re: korbonos by mincha gedoyle (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 2. Re: Yeshivishe Peyos (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Treifot question (Dr. Josh Backon)
• 4. Re: korbonos by mincha gedoyle (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: korbonos by mincha gedoyle (mkopinsky@gmail.com)
• 6. Re: korbonos by mincha gedoyle (Michael Elzufon)
• 7. Re: korbonos by mincha gedoyle (A & C Walters)
• 8. Re: korbonos by mincha gedoyle (mkopinsky@gmail.com)
• 9. Re: Treifot question (Rich, Joel)
• 10. Re: Kos Shel Bracha (saul mashbaum)
• 11. kinnim (L Reich)
• 12. Moav/Midyan (Gershon Dubin)
• 13. Vehoyo einecho ro'oys es Morecho (SBA)
• 14. Re: Vehoyo einecho ro'oys es Morecho (Zev Sero)
• 15. Chalitza video (Danny Schoemann)

R' Zev Sero wrote:
> In the 3rd BHMK, when there will be accurate clocks, lav
> davka that they will wait the full half-hour, especially
> on an Erev Pesach that falls on Erev Shabbos.

Nice svara, but does anyone pasken this way lechatchila? I'd think 
this to be among the gezeros that still apply even when the reasons 
no longer hold. I.e., that we will wait the full half-hour in 3BHMK, 
even on EP/ES.

Akiva Miller

On Sun, June 17, 2007 7:23 am, RMK <mkopinsky@gmail.com> wrote:
: I have heard the idea expressed (I don't remember where) that the
: reason for preventative chumras (s'yagim lis'yagim) is that while
: any mitzvah allows us to demonstrate ahavas Hashem either by the
: maaseh itself or by hiddurim in its performance, the only way to
: actively demonstrate (or develop, maybe?) yir'as Hashem (or at least,
: yiras Cheit) is by actively distancing oneself from a safeik aveira.

I am not sure I agree with this assumption that ahavah is more
associated with an assei, and yir'ah with a lav.

For example, I'm more cautious with my wife's feelings than with
someone I care less about. Is that ahavah or yir'ah?


A tangent on the words "yir'as Hashem (or at least, yiras Cheit)":

According to Mesilas Yesharim, there are two types of yir'ah, the
latter comes in two subtypes:
     + Yir'as ha'onesh - this is the lesser level, but since it prevents
                         cheit, it's no small thing
     + Yir'as Shamayim
          + Yir'as hacheit - not fear of the onesh, but fear of the
                             act of defying G-d in and of itself
          + Yir'as haRomemus - awe of Hashem's Greatness.

The Ramchal takes "yir'ah", with no modifier, to be yir'as hacheit. In
my comparison above, it's parallel to my caution with my wife's
feelings simply because of those feelings; not because of what they
would drive her to do to me.

See MY ch. 24 <http://www.shechem.org/torah/mesyesh/h24.htm>.

RAEK has a beautiful explanation of yir'as hacheit. See Be'iqvos
haYir'ah at <http://www.aishdas.org/raek/yirah.pdf>. Here's a snippet
from RYGB's JO article at <http://www.aishdas.org/rygb/raek.htm>:
> Yir'ah is not anguish, not pain, not bitter anxiety. To what may
> yir'ah be likened? To the tremor of fear which a father feels when
> his beloved young son rides his shoulders as he dances with him and
> rejoices before him, taking care that he not fall off. Here there is
> joy that is incomparable, pleasure that is incomparable. And the
> fear tied up with them is pleasant too. It does not impede the
> freedom of dance... It passes through them like a spinal column
> [beri'ach hatichon -mi] that straightens and strengthens. And it
> envelops them like a modest frame that lends grace and
> pleasantness... It is clear to the father that his son is riding
> securely upon him and will not fall back, for he constantly
> remembers him, not for a moment does he forget him. His son's every
> movement, even the smallest, he feels, and he ensures that his son
> will not sway from his place, nor incline sideways - his heart is,
> therefore, sure, and he dances and rejoices. If a person is sure
> that the "bundle" of his life's meaning is safely held high by the
> shoulders of his awareness, he knows that this bundle will not
> fall backwards, he will not forget it for a moment, he will remember
> it constantly, with yir'ah he will safe keep it. If every moment
> he checks it - then his heart is confident, and he dances and
> rejoices...

I combine the Ramchal and RAEK in my blog entry on yir'ah at
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2005/05/yirah.shtml>.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

>To paraphrase R' YBS - I don't know the halacha or the science but:
>Can current x-ray, MRI, PET technology provide clear enough data to
>check a cows lungs for kashrut?
>Is ability to touch required or was this just the most efficient
>halachik approach available?

I would hope that Aishdas chaver Dr. Meir Shinnar, an internationally renowned
expert on Magnetic resonance imaging will reply to your query. As a non-expert,
it would seem reasonable that an MRI could detect lung adhesions (sirchot)
although it would cost a lot of money to do this. [At the medical school, we
did this on dogs who were given gastroretentive dosage forms and it was a
major "patchkerai"]

It's possible that new cheap terahertz imaging technology could do the trick.

On a purely halachic basis: Rav Herzog in Heichal Yitzchak ORACH CHAYIM
51 seems to permit "bedikot shel yediot ha'teva" (science) even with regard
to the status of an issur karet. Other poskim (e.g. Tzitz Eliezer IX 
37) discuss
whether one can do the nipuach ha'reyoht (inflating the cow's lungs) with a
bellows rather than inflating the lungs with the breath of the Shochet u'Bodek.

In my opinion, using new technology (which may be mutar) rather than having
a SHU"B check using the old fashioned way is overkill and would drastically
raise the cost of kosher beef.

KT

Josh

kennethgmiller@juno.com wrote:
> R' Zev Sero wrote:
>> In the 3rd BHMK, when there will be accurate clocks, lav
>> davka that they will wait the full half-hour, especially
>> on an Erev Pesach that falls on Erev Shabbos.

> Nice svara, but does anyone pasken this way lechatchila?

Lechatchila?  Is there a 3rd BHMK for the shayla to arise?


> I'd think 
> this to be among the gezeros that still apply even when the reasons 
> no longer hold. I.e., that we will wait the full half-hour in 3BHMK, 
> even on EP/ES.

Why would a future Sanhedrin, with the full power to repeal obsolete
gezerot, refrain from doing so?  But in any case I don't think that
question is relevant here, because I see no indication that there was
ever a gezera in this matter, rather than simply a practise driven by
practicality.  For that matter, *can* there be gezerot in the BHMK?
After all, "ein shevut bamikdash"; or are we distinguishing "shevut"
which refers only to Shabbat, from general gezerot?


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

On 6/22/07, Zev Sero <zev@sero.name> wrote:
> After all, "ein shevut bamikdash"; or are we distinguishing "shevut"
> which refers only to Shabbat, from general gezerot?

A slight tangent:  I too thought that the term shvut (=rest) by definition
can only apply to shabbat.  However, the Gemara in BM 90a discusses it in
the context of other lavim as well.  ("Mi amrinan, ki amrinan amira
l'nachri shvut hani mili l'inyan shabbos d'issur skilah aval chasima
d'issur lav lo, o dilma lo shna?")

KT,
Michael

A & C Walters wrote:

Mincha Gedoyle is (in J?lem) exactly 1:15pm. If 
> the minyan starts at exactly this time, when could a person say 
> korbonos. Since the amiras korbonos are bemokom the bringing thereof, 
> presumably it would have to be said at a time where they could be 
> brought. Since we cannot bring korbonos before mincha gedoyle, is
there 
> any inyan at all to say the parshios of korbonos before this time (ie
at 
> 1:10pm). Obviously, there is a mitsveh of TT, and this is no worse
than 
> any other pesukim/mishnayos, but is it better? What about the yehi 
> rotsons? Any eitsehs (maybe to say after SE, but I?ve never seen this)

[[MJE]] Is there any reason that you could not say korbonoth after
Mincha?

>> Any eitsehs (maybe to say after SE, but I?ve never seen this)
> 
> [[MJE]] Is there any reason that you could not say korbonoth after 
> Mincha? _______________________________________________

I did suggest this, and I said that I've never seen it. There is a makhlokos
when to say, before ashrei or after, so the seder is important. I have never
seen a shita mention saying it after mincha. Not that it can't be done.

My question was, is there any inyan of saying before, or after, or what?

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On 6/21/07, A & C Walters <acwalters@bluebottle.com> wrote:
> I was thinking today. Mincha Gedoyle is (in J'lem) exactly 1:15pm. If the
> minyan starts at exactly this time, when could a person say korbonos. Since
> the amiras korbonos are bemokom the bringing thereof, presumably it would
> have to be said at a time where they could be brought. Since we cannot bring
> korbonos before mincha gedoyle, is there any inyan at all to say the
> parshios of korbonos before this time (ie at 1:10pm). Obviously, there is a
> mitsveh of TT, and this is no worse than any other pesukim/mishnayos, but is
> it better? What about the yehi rotsons? Any eitsehs (maybe to say after SE,
> but I've never seen this)

This question is discussed in Halichos Shlomo (a book of pesakim of Rav
Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, written by his grandchildren) Perek 13, Dvar
Halacha 2-3 and footnotes there.  His lashon is "Um"m l'inyan karban
hatamid tzarich iyun af l'deiah zu [I think, that you're yotzei SE even
before 6.5 hours] im kasher b'dieved, ukid'chazinan d'gam bishas hadchak
kmo erev Pesach ein Matirin l'hakriv misheish sha'os (mipnei shebazeh
hachashash hu yoser gadol meiasher b'inyanei tefilah, upashut.)"  In Dvar
Halacha 3 he says that if one didn't say karbanos before mincha, he
doesn't have to, but may if he wishes, say them afterwards.  The footnote
says "Ur'ei shu"s harem"a mipano siman 14 d'haya makom lomar sheyeish
l'omram tamid achar tefillas mincha, ela d'bnei yisrael neviim lo nahagu
kein, eiyan sham ba'arichus, v'eyan od shu"s tashbei"tz chelek 2 siman
161.  Ub'sefer noheig katzon yosef [What is that?] kasav: n"l sheh"h
parshas hatamid hachol lomar achar kach k'korei batorah".

Bottom line:  He is mesupak whether you're yotzei amiras karbanos before
mincha gedola, even according to the shitos that allow you to daven before
then.  He brings sources that do discuss the possibility, though not
requirement, of saying karbanos after SE.

KT,
Michael

 


In my opinion, using new technology (which may be mutar) rather than
having a SHU"B check using the old fashioned way is overkill and would
drastically raise the cost of kosher beef.

KT

Josh
==============================================
The reason for my question was the milk issue. I heard a shiur which in
essence posited (at least as I understood it since there were parts that
I did not understand e.g. why the question would be any different for 1
cow's milk versus 2 or more) that since we've always drank milk, it must
be that chazal "allowed" us to go after rov [side point- and even if now
rov were treifot , it would still be ok because they're only rov because
we're machmir because of lack of knowledge]   To me this meant that
lshitato  really we should be bodek if we could (just like we don't rely
on rov for shechita since it's shiach that there are lung issues)so I
was wondering whether now we really could be bodek live animals (and as
Dr. Josh alludes to - at what cost)

KT
Joel Rich 
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RDBannet wrote: 
>>
Methinks zachor l'kadsho applies to all the days of the week.  Therefore, 
my sons were told that if, for some reason, they couldn't 
say the shir shel yom, they should still say every morning 
"Hayom yom XXX  b"Shabbat Kodesh".
>>
In birkat ha-chodesh, I say, for example, "Rosh chodesh Menachem Av y'hiye b'yom sheini *b'Shabbat*". I have not seen this anywhere, but it seems to me that designating  a day (even a future one)  as "yom X  b'Shabbat" is a kiyyum of  "zachor et yom haShabbat l'kad'sho". 
Saul Mashbaum
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From: Sholom Simon <sholom@aishdas.org>
Subject: [Avodah] kinnim

I've learned that the blood of an animal chatas gets thrown "above 
the line" of the mizbeach, and for an olah, below the line.

Now in Kinnim, I learn that it's the opposite for a bird chatas and olah.

Any thoughts as to why?  Or deeper significance?  -- Sholom

................................................................................................

Rabbi S R Hirsch gives an interesting explanation.

Fowl sacrifices are usually offerred by the poor; animal ones by the wealthy.

A chatas is an admission of sin; an olah an offering to Hashem.

A pauper's confession of sin is less appreciated than that of a rich man.

A simple offering by a pauper finds greater favour that one by a rich man.

Elozor Reich, Manchester

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End of this week's parasha:  vayachel ha'am liznos el benos Moav.

Then, vayakrev el echav es haMidyanis;  next week tzaror es haMidyanim.
 First;  second, I thought (per Rashi in the beginning of the parasha)
that Midyan was out of the picture once Bilam got his initial "no" from
the RbSh"O?

Finally (this is not my question), Balak ben Tzipor melech leMoav ba'es
hahi, meaning (per Rashi) that he was not a native Moavi.  If so, why
could not Rus, his descendant, marry into Kelal Yisrael without the
derasha of Moavi velo Moavis?


Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

It is quite common to see the quote "Vehoyo einecho ro'os es Morecho"
captioned above or below a picture of a rav/rebbe/RY etc.

To be honest, I never gave it much thought and wasn't even sure if it was a
posuk, a Chazal or whatever.

But learning Rashi this week on "Ko'eis ye'omar leYaakov" [23:23], he quotes
it (from Yeshaya 30:20) and it clearly refers to HKBH.

So now I ask, is it right to use this for a bosor vedam?

SBA

SBA wrote:

> But learning Rashi this week on "Ko'eis ye'omar leYaakov" [23:23], he quotes
> it (from Yeshaya 30:20) and it clearly refers to HKBH.
> 
> So now I ask, is it right to use this for a bosor vedam?

"Umora rabach kemora shamayim"


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

At http://www.tsofar.com/zofar/mashtap/show.asp?id=10366 there's a
video of R' Mordechai Gross' BD doing a chalitza. Very good quality
video, BTW.

The first 40 minutes are procedural issues and some prayers. Then
start the ceremony which takes another 1/2 hour.

Fascinating

--- Danny
Skype: doniels
LinkedIn profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/doniels


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