Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 147

Fri, 06 Jul 2007

• 1. Re: Yir'ass HaShem (T613K@aol.com)
• 2. Re: Kos Shel Bracha (T613K@aol.com)
• 3. Re: Slogan game (SBA)
• 4. Re: Tzvei dinim to bitel torah (mkopinsky@gmail.com)
• 5. Re: "Targum Yonatan" (Dr. Josh Backon)
• 6. Re: Borders of Eretz Yisrael - Rashi (Dr. Josh Backon)
• 7. tisha ba-av and aveilut (Eli Turkel)
• 8. borders of Israel (Eli Turkel)
• 9. Re: Borders of Eretz Yisrael - Rashi (Arie Folger)
• 10. Re: Slogan game (mkopinsky@gmail.com)
• 11. kaddish kashes (Newman,Saul Z)
• 12. Re: Tzvei dinim to bitel torah (Zev Sero)
• 13. Re: "Targum Yonatan" (menucha)
• 14. Re: Yir'ass HaShem (Micha Berger)

 
 
From: "Zvi Lampel" _hlampel@thejnet.com_ (mailto:hlampel@thejnet.com) 

>>Rav  Avigdor Miller Zt"l advocated that "yir'eh," from the same shoresh 
that denotes  "seeing," means "awareness," so that "yir'ass HaShem" is the 
intense awareness  of Hashem's presence. This works very well, and would influence 
one to fulfill  what he knows he ought to do, yet perhaps be more utilized when 
someone is  tempted to do something he wouldn't if he truly felt that "the 
King is  watching."<<

Zvi Lampel


 
>>>>
Very nice, except that these are two different roots, not the same  root.  
The shoresh of yirah-fear is yud-resh-aleph and the shoresh of  yirah-seeing is 
resh-aleph-heh.  The only way you could say they have the  "same" root is if 
you believe in the idea that there is an essential bi-literal  root embedded in 
every three-letter shoresh, and thus say that the real  root of both words is 
resh-aleph.  But I don't think anyone accepts that  way of viewing shorashim 
anymore.




--Toby  Katz
=============



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>>I would think that the story with Noach proves that the notion  of
praising Hashem over a cup of wine (or perhaps celebrating in  general)
is something innate in the human condition.<<

Tir'u  baTov!
-mi



>>>>>
"Celebrating"?  Was Noach celebrating the "human condition" of  having almost 
everyone you know dead in a world-wide catastrophe, and  desperately wanting 
to escape the pain and grief of it all?  Wine is a gift  of G-d, the gift that 
enables ease of pain, loss of consciousness and respite  from suffering.
 
Wine can /also/ be an elixir that increases joy and spirituality,  but I 
don't think Noach got drunk in order to praise Hashem. 

 


--Toby  Katz
=============



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From: Zev Sero <>
The SME says "daas baalei batim hepech daas torah".  I think that's
the earliest usage, and it certainly predates the modern slogan.
.............

That's what we are always told. When I asked to be shown, it wasn't 
exactly that, IIRC.

SBA 

On 7/6/07, T613K@aol.com <T613K@aol.com> wrote:
> I have a book about famous literary insults and put-downs, and in it there
> is a story about Voltaire.   He wrote to someone he greatly  disliked:  "I
> am
> sitting in the smallest room in my house.  Your  letter is before me.
> Presently it will be behind me."
>
The smallest room *in* my house?   What was the *out*house doing *in* the
house?  I think that mistake gives away the fact that this quote was not
written by Voltaire, but by someone who himself had indoor plumbing, and
ascribed it to Voltaire, making the same mistake that someone made about
the GRA.

(P.S. Notice that we call him the GRA, not the GRE, even though his name
was Eliyahu.  Thus, the SME (quoted by RZS in another thread) should be
acronmy-ized as SMA.)


KT,
Michael

At 05:30 PM 7/5/2007, SBA wrote:
>From: "Dr. Josh Backon" <>
>This is  called the Pseudo-Targum. Indeed, it was erroneously attributed to
>Yonatan ben Uzziel instead of Targum Yerushalmi. (rashei teivot TAF YUD ).
>A good proof that it couldn't have been written by Yonatan ben Uzziel is the
>comment in Breishit 21 on the name of the wife of the Muslim prophet
>Muhammad!!
>..
>
>Where does the TY mention Muhamed?


On the passuk in Breishit 21:21 "v'yativ bamidbara" he mentions 
Adisha (Aisha) and Fatma.
Eppis one is the wife of Muhammad and one is the daughter. Note what 
I wrote in my original
post: "name of the wife of the Muslim prophet Muhammad!!"
                            ^^^^^

KT

Josh


>SBA
>
>
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 
>269.9.14/883 - Release Date: 7/1/2007 12:19 PM

>A Rashi that has always been bothering me is again "coming up".
>
>On Bamidbar 34:6
>
>The western border: it shall be for you the Great [Mediterranean] Sea and
>the border this shall be your western border.
>
>RASHI-
>
>The western border And what was the western border?
>[It shall be for you] the Great Sea As a boundary. and the border. The
>islands in the sea are also included in the border. These islands are called
>isles in old French. ? [Gittin 8a]
>
>*********
>
>COULD THIS MEAN THAT CYPRUS MAY BE CONSIDERED ERETZ YISRAEL?
>
>Your thoughts and sources are very welcome and appreciated.


There are a number of tiny "islands" near the 
Achziv coast near Nahariya. [the gemara
in Gittin 7b does mention the northern border as "Keziv" a.k.a. "Achziv"].
And if I'm not mistaken there are some tiny "islands" in the area below Haifa.

But CYLOG (see your local Orthodox geologist!] :-)

KT

Josh

Daniel Eidensohn points out that the Teshuvah element may be stronger than
the Aveilus element in the Three Weeks, since Aveilus does not require that
we feel sad and yet we find sadness as a running theme in Torah regarding
this period.>>

I find this statement confusing. The gemara explictly calls tisha ba-av
aveilut yeshana and aveilut de-rabim.  RYBS says the difference is
that during the various parts of the 3 weeks we have the minhagim
of aveilut without the "chalot shem" of aveilim. The reading of the haftorah
on Tisha Ba-av is a kiyum in the aveilut.

In other places RYBS talks about the sadness of an avel as opposed to
simchah. He thus explains that a "regel" ends shiva because there is
an inner contradiction between the sadness of an avel and the happiness
of a holiday. However. since there is no "din" of "simchah" on shabbat
therefore avelut continues on shabbat with no outwards displays of avelut.
However, the inner sadness continues.

Thus, IMHO other fast days are a mixture of avelut over the bet hamikdash
and teshuva while tisha ba-av stresses the avelut=sadness part.  Various
comentaries talk about the need for crying and sadness on tisha ba-av. At
the other extreme Yom Kippur symbolizes teshuva and not sadness.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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Micha Berger wrote:
> Rashi's old French reference seems to refer to the Greek Islands, not
> just Cyprus. I would think Sicily and even Sardinia and Corsica too.

I am confused. Even Ashkelon and Gaza are doubtful for Shemitta. The
Yerushalmi relates that Rebbi and Pinchas ben Yair removed Shemitta
from Ashkelon. How could Rashi be refering to Islands that far away from
Israel

-- 
Eli Turkel
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MYG wrote:
> Is anyone choshesh for this shittah regarding Terumos, Maaseros, etc.?

Irrelevant in this issue, as there never was a sanctification of these areas, 
neither in Bayit Rishon nor Sheni. This is only relevant regarding the 
mitzvah of kibbush.

Anyone wants to be a mitna'hel in Cyprus? ;-) Instead of 'Aza, we could talk 
about YeSHAQ ;-). How about outlawing prohibited kinds of marriage there?

-- 
Arie Folger
http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com

On 7/6/07, SBA <sba@sba2.com> wrote:
> From: Zev Sero <>
> The SME says "daas baalei batim hepech daas torah".  I think that's
> the earliest usage, and it certainly predates the modern slogan.
> .............
>
> That's what we are always told. When I asked to be shown, it wasn't
> exactly that, IIRC.

Does anyone know why the Bar Ilan CD (at least, as of v.13) doesn't
have the SMA?  The only thing I could find was a recent shu"t sefer
(Chelkas Yaakov) saying "v'kayadua divrei haSma b'choshen mishpat d'daas
baalei batim hefech midaas torah."   (This was in a halachic context, not
hashkafic/societal.)  There was no footnote saying where this SMA is.

KT,
Michael

i know there are guidelines  for  kadima  in kaddishes. there are cases that
don't seem so clear. like, assuming all the individuals are between 30 and 1
yr for a parent; all are shul members.
how do we factor in the following variances---   the deceased was also a
shul member, one member joined just to be allowed to say kaddish, one can
only make this minyan due to work schedule . one has access to many other
shuls.  one can only come let's say for shacharis and davens pm later. does
he get exclusive shacharis rights.  

i don't see these listed in guidelines, and expect they often come up.....

also, is the kammatz kattan in aramaic not pronounced that way?  is it lolam
ulolmai olmaya     or  lealam ulalmei almaya?
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mkopinsky@gmail.com wrote:
> On 7/6/07, T613K@aol.com <T613K@aol.com> wrote:
>> I have a book about famous literary insults and put-downs, and in it there
>> is a story about Voltaire.   He wrote to someone he greatly  disliked:  "I
>> am sitting in the smallest room in my house.  Your  letter is before me.
>> Presently it will be behind me."

> The smallest room *in* my house?   What was the *out*house doing *in* the
> house?  I think that mistake gives away the fact that this quote was not
> written by Voltaire, but by someone who himself had indoor plumbing, and
> ascribed it to Voltaire, making the same mistake that someone made about
> the GRA.

Outhouse man dchar shmeih?  Voltaire didn't live in some Lithuanian
backwater.  18th-century Paris had indoor toilets.

 
> (P.S. Notice that we call him the GRA, not the GRE, even though his name
> was Eliyahu.  Thus, the SME (quoted by RZS in another thread) should be
> acronmy-ized as SMA.)

The difference is that the initial letter is an alef, which is pronounced
A, not an ayin which is pronounced E.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

Fatima is also mentioned in Pirkei DeRabbi Eliezer there.  Couldn't it 
truly be the name of Yishmael's wife?
menucha

>On the passuk in Breishit 21:21 "v'yativ bamidbara" he mentions 
>Adisha (Aisha) and Fatma.
>Eppis one is the wife of Muhammad and one is the daughter. Note what 
>I wrote in my original
>post: "name of the wife of the Muslim prophet Muhammad!!"
>                            ^^^^^
>
>KT
>
>Josh
>
>
>  
>
>>SBA
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 
>>269.9.14/883 - Release Date: 7/1/2007 12:19 PM
>>    
>>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
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>
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On Fri, July 6, 2007 12:21 am, T613K@aol.com wrote:
: Very nice, except that these are two different roots, not the same
: root.
: The shoresh of yirah-fear is yud-resh-aleph and the shoresh of
: yirah-seeing is resh-aleph-heh.  The only way you could say they have
: the  "same" root is if you believe in the idea that there is an
: essential bi-literal  root embedded in every three-letter shoresh, and
: thus say that the real  root of both words is resh-aleph. But I don't
: think anyone accepts that  way of viewing shorashim anymore.

It's not the kind of machloqes rishonim that acharonim can pasqen on
and say "only this is correct".

But in any case, RSRH holds that phonetically related roots are
semantically related. Since these two roots only differ by the
placement of an easily-dropped letter, they may well qualify.

And besides, as I wrote earlier besheim RAEK, "Vayosha Hashem" shows
that re'iyah leads to yir'ah, and thus the two are tightly associated
regardless of phonetics.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter



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