Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 149

Mon, 09 Jul 2007

• 1. Re: Tzvei dinim to bitel torah (Zev Sero)
• 2. Re: "Targum Yonatan" (menucha)
• 3. Falling Tallis (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 4. Re: [Areivim] Heter Iska for Israeli banks (Mike Miller)
• 5. Re: Mourning for the Temple or repenting? (Arie Folger)
• 6. Re: Mourning for the Temple or repenting? (Akiva)
• 7. Re: kaddish kashes (Rich, Joel)
• 8. Boundaries of Eretz Israel (Michael Elzufon)
• 9. Re: [Areivim] Heter Iska for Israeli banks (Zev Sero)
• 10. 2 people with yahrzeit -- break up into 2 minyans? (Samuel Groner)
• 11. Shmita - shitas haRamban (A & C Walters)
• 12. Re: kaddish kashes (Akiva)
• 13. "Daas baalei batim hepech daas torah" ?? Who says? (SBA)
• 14. Re: tisha ba-av and aveilut (Rich, Joel)
• 15. Daas baabatim hepech l'daas Torah (Dov Kay)
• 16. SMA or SME (Dov Kay)
• 17. Re: SMA or SME (Micha Berger)
• 18. Re: Gezeros in the BHMK (Aryeh Stein)
• 19. Re: Gezeros in the BHMK (Aryeh Stein)

A & C Walters wrote:
> Should be correctly attributed to:
> A letter from Max Reeger (1873-1916) to a critic.
> 
> 'I am sitting in the smallest room of my house. I have your review before
> me. In a moment it will be behind me.' He was a composer of opera.
> Most definatly not Voltaire

It seems that Voltaire has a mazel of having other people's sayings
attributed to him.  He also didn't write "I disapprove of what you say,
but I will defend to the death your right to say it"; that was Beatrice
Hall.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                      	                          - Clarence Thomas

Why do we have to be so clever and try to claim that these sources took 
Yishmael's wife's (wives') name as the name of those of Mohammed.  Can't 
we just say that those were always popular names in that part of the world?
menucha

SA OC 8:15 says that if one's Tallis inadvertently falls, one has to repeat
the Berachah when putting it back on. Be'er Heitiv (also quoted by Mishneh
Berurah) says that this is the case even if one is still wearing a Tallis
Katan, unlike in the previous S'if, where one deliberately removed his
Tallis, but is planning to put it back on. In that case, the Ramah says that
one does not have to repeat the Berachah, if he is wearing a Tallis Katan.

Two questions: 1) I recall seeing R' Moshe Feinstein say that in the case
where the Tallis inadvertently fell, one does _not_ have to repeat the
Berachah if he was wearing a Tallis Katan - not like the Be'er Heitiv. Does
anyone remember such a thing, from RMF or someone else? (Yagati V'lo
Matzasi.) 2) I asked someone about this, and he said he recalled hearing the
R' Yaakov Kamenetzky said that the current Minhag is not to repeat the
Berachah should one's Tallis fall. Can anyone corroborate this?

KT,
MYG   

[From Areivim]

On 7/8/07, Doron Beckerman <beck072@gmail.com> wrote:
> IIRC, there is a problem of Ribis if using a Heter Iska for overdraft
> accounts in Israel, since that money is often used for, e.g., groceries, and
> it doesn't make sense that this money should be considered as invested in
> any sort of business venture which is the underlying premise of Heter Iska.

Assuming a generic Heter Iska is valid, is that Heter Iska then
invalidated by subsequent choices?

In a ideal HI, is a loan for buying a house considered an investment?
How about a car loan? How about a loan to help with a wedding, or just
a general situation?

Given that the HI never describes what the actual business venture
involved is, why is the fact that it's a really poor choice, as the
monetary ROI for groceries is quite small ;), an important factor?

-- Mike Miller
Ramat Bet Shemesh

RDE wrote:
> Another critical issue is if there is inherent sadness for the loss of
> the Temple why was the halacha (Rosha HaShanna 18b) that there was an
> oblgation to fast except in times of trouble but that if there were
> peace in the world there was no need to fast? [Tisha B'Av being an
> exception.] Also why R' Yehuda HaNasi apparently tried to do away with
> the 17th of Tammuz and possibly Tisha B'av if there was in fact inherent
> sadness? (Megila 5a-b)

How about seeing this sugya as a discussion on the nature of the 4 fasts, and 
that since it was decided to reinstate and observe the extra 3 fasts, there 
now exists an obligation, per taqanat 'Hazal, as per their understanding, to 
feel sadness? Would that not match RYBS? Does his requiremnet of feeling 
sadness for the 'hurban preclude that at some point this obligation was in 
dispute and was not obligatory until it was codified as the hilkhot 4 fasts?

-- 
Arie Folger
http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com

Mordechai Torczyner wrote:

>>However, perhaps another root of the bein hametzarim practices is a
fulfillment of Zecher l'Mikdash, which the gemara (RH 30a) traces to "Tziyon
he, doreish ein lah" - we are obligated to be doreish (to seek out) Tziyon.
Of course, zecher l'mikdash could also be external and action-based, but the
concept of being "doreish" sounds stronger than that.<<

You're confusing zecher lemikdash with zecher lechurban. The former is marking mitzvas that were done while the BhM stood and include things like lulav kol shiva. It is with respect to this aspect that the gemora uses this posuk. Furthermore, there is no element of aveilus involved; lulav is performed publicly on YT, and many more proofs.
The other zecher is an aveilus type zecher and exists WRT the events of the destruction. It is not here that that posuk is used.

Akiva

 


A side question:  Are the halachos of kadima in kadish actually
me'akeiv, as in, does a shul really *need* to follow them?  It seems
that many of them were kind of arbitrary, to have some kind of system to
stop the fighting in shul.  (Or is that just me being an am ha'aretz and
trying to talk about something I know nothing about?)

KT,
Michael
_______________________________________________

In Nefesh Harav (P135) R'HS  brings down the M"A who quotes the kadima
order for kaddish. He then quotes that the Shaagat Aryeh was asked to be
machria between 2 chiyuvim and he told them to draw lots.  When one of
the combatants questioned the psak, the S"A asked him how did he think
the M"A arrived at his order, we're doing the same thing.  R' YBS would
quote this story to show that sometimes does not have a definitive
opinion on a question (which is the reason I remember this)

KT
Joel Rich
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Micha Berger wrote:
> Rashi's old French reference seems to refer to the Greek Islands, not
> just Cyprus. I would think Sicily and even Sardinia and Corsica too.

I am confused. Even Ashkelon and Gaza are doubtful for Shemitta. The
Yerushalmi relates that Rebbi and Pinchas ben Yair removed Shemitta
from Ashkelon. How could Rashi be refering to Islands that far away from
Israel

[[MJE]] You are confusing the general boundaries of Eretz Israel with
the boundaries for the purposes of shmitta.  The latter are limited to
where olei Bavel settled, which did not include areas which are in
principle very much part of Eretz Israel.  Gaza is one of them.

On Areivim, Doron Beckerman wrote:
> IIRC, there is a problem of Ribis if using a Heter Iska for overdraft
> accounts in Israel, since that money is often used for, e.g., groceries, 
> and it doesn't make sense that this money should be considered as invested
> in any sort of business venture which is the underlying premise of Heter
> Iska.

"Heter iska" is a generic term for loan-substitutes that have the effect
of generating profit from money, even if they have nothing to do with any
actual business.  For instance, the real estate rental scheme described
in the SA Harav, or the simple cheque-discounting scheme described in the
KSA.  Both could be used for personal expenses.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                      	                          - Clarence Thomas

Does anyone know of discussion (pro or con) by poskim of the fairly
common practice of breaking up a group of 20+ people into 2 separate
minyanim so that 2 people with yahrzeit can each daven from the amud?

Thanks,

Sammy Groner

> >Rav Shlomo Levy (rosh kollel of Yeshivat Har Etzion) noted that 
> >according to the Ramban (as understood by Rav Kook, which Rav Levy 
> >believes to be the simple understanding of the Ramban), there is a 
> >mitzvah de'oraisa (when shmitta is de'oraisa) to eat peiros shevi'is 
> >(the pasuk says "l'ochla"), though the CI believes that according to 
> >the Ramban the mitzvah is just not to destroy the fruit (l'ochla v'lo 
> >l'hefseid).
> >

Does anyone have a mekor (inside) for this CI. Page reference would be very
useful. Thank you

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From: mkopinsky@gmail.com

>>A side question:  Are the halachos of kadima in kadish actually me'akeiv,
as in, does a shul really *need* to follow them?  It seems that many of
them were kind of arbitrary, to have some kind of system to stop the
fighting in shul.  (Or is that just me being an am ha'aretz and trying to
talk about something I know nothing about?)<<

I recall reading once in one of RHS books on RYBS (could be pninei harav, perhaps someone could check up) a story with the Shaagas Arye where he was asked who has kadima for kadish in a certain case. After replying, it was pointed out to him that this was not in compliance with the MA's list of rules. So he said "and where do you think the MA got it from?"
The list, like many psakim, is based on common sense without any written source. Sometimes it makes more sense to do it differently.

Akiva

From: mkopinsky@gmail.com

, > From: Zev Sero <>
> The SME says "daas baalei batim hepech daas torah".  I think that's
> the earliest usage, and it certainly predates the modern slogan.

>SBA <sba@sba2.com> wrote:
> That's what we are always told. When I asked to be shown, it wasn't
> exactly that, IIRC.
-----
Does anyone know why the Bar Ilan CD (at least, as of v.13) doesn't
have the SMA?  The only thing I could find was a recent shu"t sefer
(Chelkas Yaakov) saying "v'kayadua divrei haSma b'choshen mishpat d'daas
baalei batim hefech midaas torah."   (This was in a halachic context, not
hashkafic/societal.)  There was no footnote saying where this SMA is.
>>

BH I didn't misremember...I looked it up again today.

The SMA is in ChM:3 sk 13, vezeh leshonoy:

"...BeTeshuvas Maharyo (Mahari Weil)..kosav leMaharash z'l 'v'im tishma 
le'atzosi lo seshev eitzel hakohol beshum din deyodato shePiskei Habaalei 
Batim upiskei halomdim hem shnei hafeichim..." (also mentioned there 
in Nesivos Hamishpot).

Thus, Rabosay, LAD, this whole business of "daas baalei batim hepech 
daas Torah" is 'nisht geshtoygen un nisht gefloygen'.

The SMA is talking about "piskei" = Psak Halocho, where of course baalei 
batim often don't have a clue.   
But "Daas"? Man dechar shemei??

SBA 

 
http://www.bcbm-shiurs.info/Media/RavWeiss/Rav%20Weiss/RWeiss/Devorim%20
5764%20Gidrei%20HaTzomot.mp3
For an audio shiur from R' Asher Weiss on this topic - presents a number
of opinions
KT
Joel Rich
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<<The SME says "daas baalei batim hepech daas torah".  I think that's
the earliest usage, and it certainly predates the modern slogan.>>

I once went through the SMA's hakdama to Choshen Mishpat but couldn't find 
this famous line.  Did I miss it, or is it somewhere else?

Kol tuv
Dov Kay

_________________________________________________________________
The next generation of Hotmail is here! http://www.newhotmail.co.uk/

>P.S. Notice that we call him the GRA, not the GRE, even though his name
>was Eliyahu.  Thus, the SME (quoted by RZS in another thread) should be
>acronmy-ized as SMA.)

>>The difference is that the initial letter is an alef, which is pronounced
>>A, not an ayin which is pronounced E.

That only makes sense if you apply Yiddish pronunciation, in which the ayin 
is pronounced E.  But why would you do that?  We don't do it for any other 
acronyms I can think of. For instance, it's the Ra'avya, not R'evya (his 
first name was Eliezer with an ayin).

This might be a chassidic/misnagdic split, as I have heard a prominent 
Lubavitcher Rav in town say it SME, but yeshivishe Litvish types say SMA.

Kol tuv
Dov Kay
Manchester, UK

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On Mon, July 9, 2007 7:35 am, Dov Kay wrote:
:>>The difference is that the initial letter is an alef, which is
:>> pronounced A, not an ayin which is pronounced E.

: That only makes sense if you apply Yiddish pronunciation, in which the
: ayin is pronounced E....

It is also hilkhos gittin for names that aren't Hebrew. Or perhaps not
Tanakhi. We had a question of whether a kesuvah should spell
"Yaaqovah" with a trailing hei, as per standard Hebrew, or since the
name isn't Tanakhi, it should be with a final alef.

It is those halakhos that comprise the ancestor of Yiddish and Ladino
spelling.

:  But why would you do that?  We don't do it for any other acronyms
: I can think of.

So, while the fact is that there is more fundamental reason to
associate alef with patach than Yiddish, I agree that it's odd to
insist on it for this one case.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

PS: The she'eilah was misplaced, as Divrei haYamim I 4:36 has a
Yaaqovah in the genealogies, albeit as a man's name.

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

>>>The first mishna in Shas tells us that hekteir chalavim v'eivarim,
though their time for hakrava min haTorah is all night, were to be
offered by chatzos.>>>

Actually, Rashi (on the mishna) explains that by hekteir chalavim
v'eivarim, there was no gezeira that they had to be offered by chatzos
- the zman for hekteir chalavim v'eivarim is all night.  (Rashi
explains that the only reason that hekteir chalavim v'eivarim is
brought down in the mishna is to teach us that any mitzvah that is
done at night is "kasher kol halayla.")

KT,
Aryeh

>>>Actually, Rashi (on the mishna) explains that by hekteir chalavim
v'eivarim, there was no gezeira that they had to be offered by chatzos
- the zman for hekteir chalavim v'eivarim is all night..... >>>

============================================
I should have written "according to Rashi...."  I have been notified
off-line that the Rambam (Ma'aseh Hakorbanos 4:2) disagrees with
Rashi.

KT,
Aryeh


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