Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 167

Wed, 08 Aug 2007

• 1. The Re'eh Connection (Cantor Wolberg)
• 2. Badatz Denounces Violent Demonstrations (Jonathan Baker)
• 3. Re: Kaparos? For PETA's Sake! (Rich, Joel)
• 4. Re: Kaparos? For PETA’s Sake! (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 5. Kapparos? For PETA?s Sake! (Prof. Levine)
• 6. Re: Public school or non-Orthodox day school? (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 7. Re: Public school or non-Orthodox day school? (David Riceman)
• 8. Public school or non-Orthodox day school? (Jonathan Baker)
• 9. Re: Public school or non-Orthodox day school? (Harry Weiss)

The parashas Re'eh begins with "See (Behold), I give you today a blessing and a curse."  On weekdays we say three times a day in the amidah: "See (Behold) our affliction (re'eh v'anyeinu)."  

So what's the connection?  When the Torah says we are given a choice between receiving a blessing or, God forbid, a curse, the Siddur is more realistic and says "look at our affliction" implying that we made the wrong choice. However, the blessing that immediately precedes Re'eh v'anyeinu, is "S'lach lonu" which gives us the option of change and ultimately making the right choice. Immediately following re'eh v'anyeinu, we can unabashedly ask the Almighty to "heal us (R'fo-eynu)."
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From: saul mashbaum <smash52@netvision.net.il>
 
> RTK poignantly described her process of charata and tshuva for
> reporting many years ago destructive activities by apparently
> chareidi youths
 
> RMMiller reponded sarcasticly:

>> Thanks for sharing. B"H, now, their children know it's ok to do the
>> same, since no one will call the police if they protest in a "frum"
>> neighborhood.
 
> I am inclined to believe RMM's position is more proper. If anything,
> instead of branding those who report such crimes as mosrim, we may
> look at those who commit them as rodfim: by their actions, they are
> endangering innocent members of their community.

RMM responded:
> Let me just say that I'm not 100% comfortable with the idea of
> reporting yidden to a secular police. That said, until I see another
> option, for matters of sakanas nefashos, I see no other option. Even

It seems to me that next week's parsha mandates a police presence, in 
the first verse, no?  What am I missing, that nobody has raised this
issue yet?

: Chapter 16
: 18. You shall set up judges and law enforcement officials for yourself
: in all your cities that the Lord, your God, is giving you, for your
: tribes, and they shall judge the people [with] righteous judgment.

A quick Bar-Ilan search tells us:

Sanhedrin 16b: Braita: one must appoint police, (veshotrim), tribal
police (lishvateicha), city police (lish'areicha).  This is codified
by Rambam in Hil. Sanhedrin 1:1.

Pesikta Rabbati Piska 33 d"h Anochi Anochi - seems to indicate the physical
nature of police power, referring to "the staff and the strap".

Rashi on the verse: Police force the people to follow the dictates of
the court, that they use staff and strap to get people to accept the
law of the judge.

Seems to me that Mike Miller's position is proper, rather than RnTK's
apparent position.  Israel is a JEWISH state.  Its police is a Jewish
police, appointed by the (majority-Jewish) government.  Its power to
enforce the law is part of the Torah system.  How can it be "mesirah"
to report a crime to the Israeli police?  Police brutality is a separate
issue, but they are expected to be brutal in the Torah.

If it were a "secular" police, I might have less problem with this 
"mesirah" position, but how can the Jewish police in the Jewish state
under a Jewish government, be the object of "mesirah"?

--
        name: jon baker              web: http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker
     address: jjbaker@panix.com     blog: http://thanbook.blogspot.com

 
But as I said, the bigger issue for me is how exactly this Minhag got
started in the first place? IIRC the Gemarah talks about it.  What was
the point of it?  Isn't Kaparah for
Aveiros all about doing Teshuva? ...and not about transferring Averios
onto a  chicken? I doubt that this practice has it's origin in the
Torah. The Torah speaks of Karbanos on the Mizbeach. Not chickens waved
over the head 3 times and thrown on the floor.
   
HM 
 =====================================================================
Actuarial logic-we see the logic by a karban for shogeig - it should be
me etc.. but we don't want anyone to think it's a real karban etc.
 
IIRC last time I looked into this the Ari was quoted as a kabbalistic
source for the practice and the gra said darkei emori but most telling
to me was that it was brought down by the mahari dura as "nahagu haam"
which based on the gemara taanit 26a simply means people started doing
and we don't stop them - (me perhaps similar to the wisdom of the jewish
people extolled by R'YBS)

KT
joel rich
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R' Harry Maryles wrote:
> What is the point of Shlugging Kaparos anyway? ... I never
> understood this custom. ... the bigger issue for me is how
> exactly this Minhag got started in the first place? IIRC the
> Gemarah talks about it. What was the point of it? Isn't
> Kaparah for Aveiros all about doing Teshuva? and not about
> transferring Averios onto a chicken? I doubt that this
> practice has it's origin in the Torah. The Torah speaks of
> Karbanos on the Mizbeach. Not chickens waved over the head 3
> times and thrown on the floor.

There is a presumption here that "Kaparah for Aveiros [is] all about 
doing Teshuva."

We need to examine this presumption. At least according to Rebbi 
(Yoma 85b), Yom Kippur is mechaper even without Teshuvah. I do not 
understand how that would work, which shows that there is something 
sorely lacking in my understanding of what kapparah is about, and how 
it works. If I understood it better, I might be able to apply it to 
waving chickens. But as things stand now, I'm stuck.

(In March 2001, we had a discussion here, not on how kapparah 
*works*, but on what the word kaparah *means*. To review that thread, 
go to http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=k#kapparah)

Akiva Miller

At 03:08 AM 08/08/2007, R. Harry wrote:
>
>   There has been a discussion on Areivim about 
> a complaint registered by  the People for the 
> Ethical Treatment of Animals about Shluging 
> Kaparos. Dr. Levine mentioned in this context 
> that he recalled seeing something in Kashrus 
> Magazine about a year or two ago stating that a 
> number of Rabbonim had "condemned" the way 
> chickens used for Kapporos are often 
> mistreated. The chickens are kept in small 
> cages, are not fed, are left out in the rain, sun, etc.
>
>   That generated the following thought on my part.
>
>   What is the point of Shlugging Kaparos 
> anyway? I admit I'm an Am Ha'aretz on this 
> issue. I never understood this custom. We know 
> for example  that the Minhag of using live 
> chickens was frowned upon at one point because 
> of Darkei Amori. How did it now seep back into practice?
>
>   But as I said, the bigger issue for me is how 
> exactly this Minhag got started in the first 
> place? IIRC the Gemarah talks about it.  What 
> was the point of it?  Isn't Kaparah for
>   Aveiros all about doing Teshuva? ...and not 
> about transferring Averios onto a  chicken? I 
> doubt that this practice has it's origin in the 
> Torah. The Torah speaks of Karbanos on the 
> Mizbeach. Not chickens waved over the head 3 times and thrown on the floor.
>
>   Frankly this custom disturbs me. Not so much 
> because of  PETA says. I do not consider them a 
> reliable source of information on the 
> mistreatment of animals (although if what Dr. 
> Levine said is true, then that needs to be 
> rectified), but because it seems so ridiculous on the face of it.
>
The use of chickens for kapparos has become an 
"in thing" in Brooklyn in recent years, and I 
presume in other places. I believe that this is a 
direct result of the Chassidization of 
Yiddishkeit that one sees in many areas of 
Yahadus today. The yeshivas encourage their 
students to do kapporos with chickens. Some even 
take the younger students to a place where it is 
done with chickens as a class trip.

IMO, there is no question that what is going on 
in with this practice in many places is, to put 
it mildly, problematic. Someone wrote to me 
saying that he saw 20 cases of chickens that were 
left in front of a yeshiva over Yom Kippur last 
year all filled with dead chickens. They had died 
as a result of not being fed and the elements.

I posted the following on Areivim regarding a 
report of a meeting of rabbonim on this issue 
that took place this past Monday.  It was from Yeshiva World.

"The meeting, which took place in the Novominsk 
beis medrash in Borough Park, focused on three areas of concern.

The first was the fact that the ever-increasing 
number of chickens used for the rite has put 
unprecedented pressure on the shochtim who are 
relied upon to ensure that the birds are properly 
slaughtered.  What is more, there is no 
independent halachic oversight of the thousands 
of shechitos performed as parts of the public 
Kapporos that have become regular occurrences in 
many places of late.  Since the chickens used for 
Kapporos are traditionally given to the Jewish 
poor, the importance of ensuring that the 
shechitos are properly performed is paramount.

A second focus of the Rabbonim was on the 
potential for the spread of disease, considering 
that chickens and their waste harbor bacteria 
like Salmonella that, if ingested, can cause 
serious sickness.  Children in particular may not 
be aware of the importance of either wearing 
latex gloves or carefully and thoroughly washing 
their hands with anti-bacterial soap after 
touching the birds or their cages with bare 
hands.  An infectious disease specialist was 
present at the meeting, at the organizers? 
invitation, and made a presentation to the gathering.

The final concern discussed by the Rabbonim was 
the possibility that, in the hubbub that tends to 
attend mass Kapporos gatherings, the prohibition 
of tzaar baalei chaim ? causing unnecessary 
discomfort or pain to animals ? might be 
compromised by vendors or participants."

Now each of the problems cited seem to me to 
involve possibly being over on a D?oreisa. Given 
this, how can a minhag, and one that is 
questionable according to some authorities, be 
allowed to be practiced by these rabbinical 
authorities. Should they not assur Kapporas with 
chickens until they have designed a full-proof 
method that avoids any possibility of being over 
a D'oreisa?  After all, in many other things that 
rabbonim feel are problematic from the standpoint 
of Yiddishkeit we see bans issued.

I do not understand why "The Rabbonim discussed 
each issue at length and decided to delegate to a 
smaller group the responsibility of drawing up a 
list of guidelines for Kapporos, to be submitted 
to the entire group for their appraisal and, when 
approved, to be disseminated to the community at 
large ? in time for this year?s Yomim Noro?im, 
habo?im oleinu li?chapara u?litova."

Action, not delegation is called for.


Yitzchok Levine 
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R"n Toby Katz quoted my post, where I wrote:
> But the OP, as posted, seems to include  a hava mina that RYBS's
> psak might go so far as to suggest that I'd consider sacrificing
> my child's -- or someone else's child's -- chinuch in order to
> avoid supporting a non-Orthodox day school. And I, for one, am
> not willing  to consider that option.

All I meant to say here is that one should not, b'shita, 
automatically exclude non-Orthodox day schools from consideration, 
merely on the sole grounds that they are non-Orthodox. Rather, one 
should consider that fact among the many other factors that I wrote 
about in my post. It is possible that the public school might be an 
even less desirable option than the non-Orthodox day school.

RTK wrote:
> Do not think, "The non-O school provides a good chinuch but we
> don't want to show support for non-O." Rather, as bad as the
> chinuch might be in public school, the  education in a non-O
> day school is /even worse/.

It is very unfair to make such blanket statements. Both schools 
deserve a cursory lookover, at the very least.

> In public school he won't learn anything about Judaism at all
> and will be left a tabula rasa, for his parents or outside
> tutors to fill in later.

Surely the word "later" was included by mistake, as dedicated parents 
will try to teach their children as much Torah as they can.

> In the non-O school he will learn all kinds of sheker, which will
> be exceedingly difficult to eradicate from his mind later on.
> Much harder to write on a palimpsest than on a  tabula rasa.

I totally agree with this. But it is only one factor of many.

> In the "community" day school in Chattanooga where I taught...

Yes, sigh... You've written about those experiences many times, and I 
don't deny a bit of it. But it is unfair to think that all schools 
are like that one. I grant you that most might be similar, but Who 
knows if *this* one might be among the not-so-terrible ones. Or at 
least, not as terrible as the local public school.

Just so that I am perfectly clear: I am NOT presuming that a non-
Orthodox day school is better than a public school. I am simply 
saying that it should not be discounted sight unseen, because the 
public school might be even worse.

Akiva Miller

Harry Maryles wrote:
> Most of those attending those schools will quite likely continue to 
> assimilate into oblivion, but, a significant minority will be inspired 
> to continue in the movement as committed Conservative Jews believing 
> themselves to be a legitimate denomination.
IIRC the last survey I saw on this topic claimed that Jewish affiliation 
was highly correlated with the amount of Jewish education a person had 
had, but not with the sect in which he was educated.  OTOH I tend not to 
pay much attention to these studies so my recollection may be wrong.  
Does anyone on the list actually know anything about this?

David Riceman

> R' Daniel Eidensohn asked:
> > Is it was preferable to encourage a person to stay in a
> > non-Orthodox day school or let them go to public school. 

R' Harry Maryl's:  (aren't a lot of those -es names patronymic in origin,
e.g. Isserles - Isserl's [ben Yisroel]?  So what's Maryl's?  Ben Meir?)
 
> On the one hand they teach a view of Judaism that from an Orthodox
> viewpoint is considered to be heretical. The accept documentary
> hypothesis which denies that the events at Sinai ever took place.
> They say instead that it was written much later in various different
> periods in Jewish history. However they do, say that biblical narrative
> was divinely inspired. 
 
> On the other hand, Solomon Schechter schools teach Mitzvah observance.
> While they dispute Orthodoxy?s interpretation of Halacha in some
> instances, they agree to their binding nature generally.

Rn TK disagrees:
 
> Rather, as bad as the chinuch might be in public school, the
> education in a non-O day school is /even worse/.  In public school
> he won't  learn anything about Judaism at all and will be left a
> tabula rasa, for his parents or outside tutors to fill in later.  

> In the non-O school he will  learn all kinds of sheker, which will
> be exceedingly difficult to eradicate from  his mind later on. Much 
> harder to write on a palimpsest than on a  tabula rasa.
  
[anecdote about fault-finding and the Avos, also OT as literature]

I think there are other factors at play here.  You're both focusing
on the intellectual components of the Jewish Studies curriculum.
But what about the morals one learns in any Jewish school vs. a public
school?  

A fellow I know went through a messy divorce, when his wife stopped
being religious.  She had custody initially, and put the children into
public school.  For one year.  This really messed them up.  Part of it
may have been the shock of going from a religious school to a public
school, but they fell in with bad crowds, they were totally unprepared
for the social atmosphere there, they were exposed to the whole sex-and-
drugs thing that too many public-school kids engage in (not that the 
yeshivas are free of such things, but at least it's known to be against
the moral structure of the school, and is far, far less prevalent).  Not
to mention the whole anti-intellectual thing that rules in America.

They both had to go to special yeshiva programs, after their father
regained custody, to re-enter the religious community and re-adjust
their moral sights.

These kids are not stupid, but putting them into public school really
screwed up their relationship with Judaism.

Now, if you're asking about whether or not to start in public school
or a "community school" - well, you have to look at the situations
in each town.  I wouldn't presume to say "this is absolutely wrong for
every child everywhere".   For instance, from Park Slope, parents send
their kids to Yeshiva of Flatbush or the community school Hannah Senesh,
which is run by an Orthodox woman.  One person (the Israeli gabbai) sent
his boys to Harry Halpern, a Schechter, initially because they taught 
Israeli pronunciation of Hebrew, but soon found that they were not a good
program, not equipped to handle brighter kids.  At Senesh, however, the
only real problem seems to be encouraging the girls to wear yarmulkes and
tefillin after bat-mitzvah.

But switching in the middle?  Unless you're going to a special high-
intellect high school, such as some kids do coming from Ramaz into
Stuyvesant or Bronx Science, where there are substatial communities of
kids from serious Jewish homes, as well as other morally- and intel-
lectually-concerned households, it seems a major test for the children.

--
        name: jon baker              web: http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker
     address: jjbaker@panix.com     blog: http://thanbook.blogspot.com

> From: T613K@aol.com

> You think that keeping the kid out of the non-O day school would 
"sacrifice
> his chinuch"?  The opposite is true.  Keeping him /in/ the  non-O school would
> sacrifice his chinuch.  Do not think, "The non-O  school provides a good
> chinuch but we don't want to show support for  non-O."  Rather, as bad as the
> chinuch might be in public school, the  education in a non-O day school is /even
> worse/.  In public school he won't  learn anything about Judaism at all and
> will be left a tabula rasa, for his  parents or outside tutors to fill in later.
> In the non-O school he will  learn all kinds of sheker, which will be
> exceedingly difficult to eradicate from  his mind later on.   Much harder to write on
> a palimpsest than on a  tabula rasa.
>
deletions


>
> Now I have just summed up what is taught in non-Orthodox schools.  I  will
> add one more thing, which is that only ONE kid in my entire fifth grade  class
> in that school was halachically Jewish (a fact I did not know at first,  but
> found out one kid at a time).  Thus, if you think the kid in the Jewish  school
> will at least have Jewish friends -- think again.
>
> Far, far better to send the kid to public school and supplement his Jewish
> education at home or in an after-school Talmud Torah or Sunday school.   Also
> be sure to send him away to an Orthodox summer camp.
>
>
Here all we have is a community school, which leaves a tremendous amount 
to be deisred.  There are a number that are not halachically Jewish, but 
when my children were young the vast majority were Jewish.

The big fights regarding the school was how much Yiddishkeit and Jewish 
subjects were taught. Reform tried to water everything down (even though 
they sent very few children)  The O community had almost 100% 
paricipation.

The religious education was of poor quality (even though there were 
several Orthodox Rabbis running the school.  From what I understand the 
level of Hebrew language has gotten quite good, the level of other 
materials is quite poor.

My older son was there through 7th grade with 7th grade being private 
tutoring mostly.  For 8th grade we sent him 100 miles away to an O day 
school, but the educational level in Jewish subjects was not much better.

When he started Yeshiva HS in LA, he was able within a short period of 
time to keep up with the others at his grade level.

We pulled my younge son out after 5th grade and sent him to public school 
6-8th and home schooled him in Limudei Kodesh.  When he got to HS he was 
at the level of the other students.

I think it was important that as a result of his going to the community 
school, most of his friends (including when he was in PS)  were other 
Jews.


Harry J. Weiss
hjweiss@panix.com


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