Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 169

Sun, 12 Aug 2007

• 1. Re: What was actually written on the luchos, zachor (T613K@aol.com)
• 2. Re: Kaparos? For PETA's Sake! (Micha Berger)
• 3. What was actually written on the luchos, (Gershon Dubin)
• 4. Re: The Re'eh Connection (Michael Kopinsky)
• 5. Re: Kaparos? For PETA?s Sake! (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 6. Re: Why is Milchemes Reshus allowed? (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: What was actually written on the luchos, zachor (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Badatz Denounces Violent Demonstrations (Meir Shinnar)
• 9. Re: Fw: [Areivim] reporting yidden to a secular police (JRich@Sibson.com)
• 10. Re: Why is Milchemes Reshus allowed? (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 11. Re: Badatz Denounces Violent Demonstrations (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: Badatz Denounces Violent Demonstrations (Rich, Joel)
• 13. Badatz denounces violent demonstrations (Jonathan Baker)
• 14. Re: Badatz Denounces Violent Demonstrations (Micha Berger)
• 15. Reminder: Jerusalem Motzai Shabbos Shoftim get together (Danny Schoemann)

 
 
In a message dated 8/9/2007, lreich@tiscali.co.uk writes:

>>And to respond to a query by R'  T.K; who says that there were  precisely 
five commandments on each stone? 
Further details can be found in "Keystones of the World" by Devorah Reich  
published by Targum/Feldheim in 2002).  Says a proud father.<< 
Elozor Reich



>>>>>
I don't know "who" says it but it is commonly said that the first five are  
bein adam laMokom and the second five are bein adam lachaveiro, strongly  
suggesting a parallel structure that wouldn't be obvious if, say, four dibros  were 
actually written on one luach and six on the other.
 
I love to hear from proud fathers, I will ask my husband to bring your  
daughter's book home from his store, looks interesting.

--Toby  Katz
=============



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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On Thu, August 9, 2007 3:47 am, Rt Shoshana L. Boublil wrote:
: This is truly horrifying, and it makes it clear why the issue of
: chickens as kapparot, at least in the States is problematic.

The issue isn't US vs Israel, but having urbanites trying to care for
animals. If someone lived in yeshiva their whole lives, they simply
don't have an opportunity to know what they're doing.

R' Marc Angel has a recurring theme in his work about how Judaism
shifted from being an outdoor religion of agrarians, who were
intimately tied to natural cycles -- the seasons and the moadim, the
zemanei tefilah and the daily sun -- and somewhere along the line
became an indoor religion, centered on yeshiva and beis medrash.
Notably, he believes Ashkenazi contact with Xianity had much to do
with it.

: Here in Israel, my in-laws use chickens, but in a very different
: manner.

: Several days before Yom Kippur, the chickens are chosen for them at
: the Shochet's factory, after saying kapparot for the whole family, the
: Shochet takes care of them, like any other chicken for consumption.
: Several of the chickens are sent to local yeshivot and the others go
: home for consumption, for Erev Yom Kippur.

It's clear from the words said beforehand that the point of it all is
to perform one mitzvah as a saneigor. Seudas YT, such as on erev YK,
would qualify. As would tzedaqah.

As implied in my email of this morning (J-m time), my kaparos consists
of coins donated to buying food for aniyim.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

From: "L Reich" <lreich@tiscali.co.uk>

<<Rav Yaakov Kamenetzky visited this institution and posed the a question to a class. "Which was written on the Luchos, Zochoir or Shomoir?"

A budding scholar raised his hand tentatively and answered "Shomoir".

"How do you know?" asked the Gaon?

"Because we say in Shabbos Shacharis, "Vecosuv Bohem Shmiras Shabbos", was the lad's response.

R' Yaakov hugged the boy and kissd him on the forehead.>>

Because he was mechaven to RYK's peshat, as he says in his Emes LeYaakov on Chumash.  If RYK had learned it from this bachur he would have attributed it to him.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

On 8/9/07, SBA <sba@sba2.com> wrote:
>
> On a related matter, see the Baal Haturim this week who has 5-6 different
> pshotim on "Re'eh Onoychi" - a couple which could pass as a chassidish
> vertel..


To me, the Baal Haturim always seems (from the tiny amount I've seen) to be
a bit chassidish.  Gematrias, roshei teivos, etc.

SVA


Oh, have you changed your name?  Or is this just another chassidishe mivta
thing? :-)

KT,
Michoyel
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I asked:
> At least according to Rebbi (Yoma 85b), Yom Kippur is mechaper
> even without Teshuvah. I do not understand how that would work

R"n Toby Katz answered:
> The inuyim of Yom Kippur provide atonement, the same as any
> punishment or consequence or suffering inflicted by a bais din
> or by Shomayim -- not total atonement, in the absence of teshuva,
> but at least partial kapara.

So Yom Kippur can be partially mechaper without teshuva, but not without the inuyim. I had not thought of that. Thanks!

Akiva Miller

On Sat, July 28, 2007 11:36 pm, kennethgmiller@juno.com wrote:
: What is the rationale behind a milchemes reshus?
...
: And for what purpose? To increase our territory? If our melech wants
: the extra territory because he feels threatened and needs more secure
: borders (as in 1967) one could argue that it is a milchemes *mitzva*.
: The milchemes *reshus* situation sounds like he wants extra territory
: merely for reasons of prestige. Why are we not offended by this
: concept?

Prestige? Living space. People die if the economy fails to thrive.
More people die in extreme weather, infant mortality is worse when
food isn't as available, lifespans decrease with every disinsentive to
see a doctor.

That's not as immediate, must be done now or we'll die, as a michemes
mitzvah, but it really is about lives. And a wise king needs to know
when to exercise that reshus to minimize death overall.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Sun, August 5, 2007 4:04 am, R Marty Bluke wrote:
: R' YK brings this down as maybe the Ibn Ezra. He pints out that Rashi
: clearly disagrees as Rashi says that the 2 were exactly the same.

OTOH, RCBrisker (Derashah 7 IIRC) writes that the first diberos
contained kol haTorah kulah -- all of TSBK and what would become TSBP.
The need for TSBP, for the people as the kelaf, is central to RCB's
understanding of cheit ha'eigel, the nature of the 2nd luchos, and the
relationship between Yisrael and Torah as a whole.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

RTK
> Israel does not claim to be a "Torah" state nor are its laws the laws of  the
> Torah nor does it follow halacha in most instances nor are its judges and
> police the shoftim and shotrim of the Torah.

the RZ position has that the government has the status of melech - and
the rambam's distinction, in regards to dine nefashot, between din
torah and din hamelech applies - and the din hamelech is far more
arbitrary with fewer safeguards- with the primary concern being the
social welfare  (makin veonshin shelo min hadin..).

>>There has been much testimony
> about the many Russian policemen in Israel (some with crosses around their
> necks) ,and even the Jewish police are the lowest people in Israel, chosen from
> the ranks of the most brutal and least civilized strata of society.

This requires the strongest mecha'a - how can you publicly defame an
entire group?? policemen come from all strata of society - eg, I
believe RE Turkel mentioned his son or son in law is in the police -
and there are many fine and honest policemen.  Apparently, it is quite
all right to defame anything with the zionist entity..

I would add that there are relatively few policemen who come from the
strata that most Israelis would view as being least civilized -
haredim.... (that is the problem with group generalizations...)

>There  has
> also been much testimony on Areivim and in many other places about police
> brutality against guilty rioters and innocent bystanders alike.

Yes, there is police brutality - and I have close friends and family
in the DL camp who have been hurt in demonstrations - but one also has
to realize that this broad brush is wrong, and police brutality is not
the norm (even if some forms of activities seem to bring it out).The
police do have a difficult job - which is tough to do delicately. From
Mike Miller's posts on Ramat Bet Shemesh bet, it seems that sometimes
the problem is far more lack of police brutality, and a few more baton
swings (rather than standing by) might have helped prevent the injury
of real  innocents...


Meir Shinnar

It seems to me that next week's parsha mandates a police presence, inthe first verse, no?  What am I missing, that nobody has raised thisissue yet?: Chapter 16 18.You shall set up judges and law enforcement officials for yourself: in all your cities that the Lord, your God, is giving you, for your: tribes, and they shall judge the people [with] righteous judgment.

Sanhedrin 16b: Braita: one must appoint police, (veshotrim), tribalpolice (lishvateicha), city police (lish'areicha).>>>

That refers to Shoftim, ie, Sanhedrin and/or BD.Not secular (and even anti-Torah) courts and govt*//////////////////////

however one could argue that the authority for police  flows from the power of the king (or in this case civil  authority) to maintain  societal norms  (much is written and debated on this topic)

ktjoel rich



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> On Sat, July 28, 2007 11:36 pm, kennethgmiller@juno.com wrote:
> : What is the rationale behind a milchemes reshus?
> ...
> : And for what purpose? To increase our territory? If our melech wants
> : the extra territory because he feels threatened and needs more secure
> : borders (as in 1967) one could argue that it is a milchemes *mitzva*.
> : The milchemes *reshus* situation sounds like he wants extra territory
> : merely for reasons of prestige. Why are we not offended by this
> : concept?

Did anyone yet reference Berachos 3b (on bottom), where it was clear that
the Milchamos were (at least sometimes) solely for economic reasons? I don't
think we are offended, because the economy is very important - it is the
difference between having food on the table or having just the tablecloth.

BTW, I notated the word "Parnassah" in that Gemara with the words, "Ayin
Ritva." I don't currently have a Ritva on Berachos, anyone who does could
check and see if it is a pertinent reference...

KT,
MYG

On Thu, Aug 09, 2007 at 04:24:37PM -0400, Meir Shinnar wrote:
: the RZ position has that the government has the status of melech...

That is A RZ position. R' Reines would not have agreed. There are other
forms of RZ than R's Kook messiano-Zionism. Most of them would disagree
with this assertion. I couldn't picture RYBS, for example, agreeing. I
ask RHM to chime in about RAS.

:-)BBii!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             A wise man is careful during the Purim banquet
micha@aishdas.org        about things most people don't watch even on
http://www.aishdas.org   Yom Kippur.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rabbi Israel Salanter

On Thu, Aug 09, 2007 at 04:24:37PM -0400, Meir Shinnar wrote:
: the RZ position has that the government has the status of melech...

That is A RZ position. R' Reines would not have agreed. There are other
forms of RZ than R's Kook messiano-Zionism. Most of them would disagree
with this assertion. I couldn't picture RYBS, for example, agreeing. I
ask RHM to chime in about RAS.

:-)BBii!
-mi
========================================================
So in this formulation who would have the responsibility for maintaining
the social order in Israel today?
KT
Joel Rich
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From: T613K@aol.com
> From: "Jonathan Baker" _jjbaker@panix.com_ (mailto:jjbaker@panix.com) 

> > Israel is a JEWISH state. Its police is a Jewish
> > police, appointed by the (majority-Jewish) government. Its power to
> > enforce the law is part of the Torah system. How can it be "mesirah"
> > to report a crime to the Israeli police? Police brutality is a separate
> > issue, but they are expected to be brutal in the Torah.<<

> Israel does not claim to be a "Torah" state nor are its laws the laws of the 
> Torah nor does it follow halacha in most instances nor are its judges and 
> police the shoftim and shotrim of the Torah. 

The first two lines are "yeah, so", and the last clause is just an opinion.

There is the other opinion that the government of Israel has a din melech
willy nilly, being a Jewish State, even if it isn't a Torah state - after
all, look at the non-Torah state that was the Kingdom of Judea, so much a
non-Torah state that the Torah was forgotten in the 8th century BCE and
had to be rediscovered by Josiah and Co.

> about the many Russian policemen in Israel (some with crosses around their 
> necks) ,and even the Jewish police are the lowest people in Israel, chosen from 
> the ranks of the most brutal and least civilized strata of society. There has 
> also been much testimony on Areivim and in many other places about police 
> brutality against guilty rioters and innocent bystanders alike.  They will wade 

As I said, brutality is a separate issue, and is also recognized by the
gemara as the way that police work - "by staff and strap." Read the
braitas and Rashi that I brought. Excessive brutality should be dealt
with separately, but the Jewish police of the Jewish state seem to be
exactly the shotrim that the Torah talks about. Particularly for those
who hold that the State government has a "din melech". Chana Luntz
mentioned this in the name of the Ran (she thought), as well as popular
acceptance of Devorah even if not qualified technically to rule (Ramban,
Shevuot 30a), in Avodah v15n69.

See also R' Aharon Lichtenstein, http://www.vbm-torah.org/archive/kings09.htm
who implies that police power qua "public security" is a basic government
function. So as long as the government is "legitimate", police is a
legitimate exercise of governmental authority. Which is why claims that
the police are "illegitimate" are in the realm of political opinon,
rather than halachic fact. For R' Lichtenstein, legitimacy hinges on
whether the viewer thinks the government is empowered to give away land
for piece; if the viewer thinks yes, the government is legitimate, if
no, not.  Now, perhaps Toby is of the Chasidic or extreme Settler per-
spective that doesn't recognize the legitimacy f the government. But I
don't think that's the Agudist perspective, let alone the DLs.

You're expressing your opinion, and so am I - looking at the Torah
and Chazal, it seems likely that the Israeli police are the Shotrim 
of the Torah, even in a limited role of enforcing dina demalchuta
dina. To you, not so much. OK.

And as others have pointed out - the police are brutal, but so are those
chareidim who choose to throw rocks at their co-religionists. And members
of this list have been (or have friends who have been) on the receiving 
end of those rocks. Police will overreact, but if the know they're going
into a violent neighborhood, it's more likely that they will hit first
and ask questions never.

--
        name: jon baker              web: http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker
     address: jjbaker@panix.com     blog: http://thanbook.blogspot.com

On Thu, Aug 09, 2007 at 04:24:37PM -0400, Meir Shinnar wrote:
:: the RZ position has that the government has the status of melech...

[Me:]
: That is A RZ position... There are other
: forms of RZ than R's Kook messiano-Zionism. Most of them would
: disagree with this assertion...

On Fri, August 10, 2007 9:27 am, Rich, Joel wrote:
: So in this formulation who would have the responsibility for
: maintaining the social order in Israel today?

I think they would argue that the gov't qualifies as either tuvei
ha'ir, or if tuvei ha'ir requires that they be observant, perhaps dina
demalkhusa.

But not din melekh.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

Reminder:

All chaveirim and their spouses are invited to a get together in our
home, in honour of R' Micha Berger and his family.

This coming Motzai Shabbos (Shoftim - 18th August) - from 21:30 until midnight.

-->> Light refreshments and "HaMotzi" will be served - in lieu of a
full Melave Malke. <<--

RSVP for details and directions.

Looking forward to seeing everybody

- Danny & Naomi Schoemann
  Jerusalem


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