Avodah Mailing List

Volume 24: Number 23

Tue, 23 Oct 2007

• 1. Re: Minhag Yisroel (Richard Wolpoe)
• 2. Just what ARE the rules of p'sak anyway? (Richard Wolpoe)
• 3. Re: An-im Zemiros (A & C Walters)
• 4. Birchos HaToroh (RallisW@aol.com)
• 5. Re: What did they learn in the yeshiva of Shem and Ever (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 6. Re: What did they learn in the yeshiva of Shem and Ever (Daniel Eidensohn)
• 7. Kohanim in Cemeteries (Jonathan Baker)
• 8. Re: Regarding Anger: What is R' Moshe's Resolution? (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: Birchos HaToroh (Richard Wolpoe)
• 10. Re: What did they learn in the yeshiva of Shem and Eiver (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: An-im Zemiros (Zev Sero)

On 10/23/07, T613K@aol.com <T613K@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> The area of disagreement is not whether halacha underwent some historical
> development -- the Gemara itself says that it did, when it describes the
> reasons and circumstances under which various derabanans were promulgated.
> Everyone knows that the mitzvos of Chanuka and Purim, for example, were the
> products of certain historical events.
>

Can we make the 5th of Iyyar a holiday like Purim NOWADAYS?
Apparently as quote to me RYBS refused to allow birkas Hallel on 5 Iyyar.
As per Rabbeinu Tam it would be OK  to do so AISI.

[fwiw persoanlly I treated 5 Iyyar like lag ba'omer]


The area of disagreement concerns the question of whether the entire corpus
> of halacha is entirely man-made, subjective and random.  Right-wingers would
> say that only /allowable/ developments occurred over time, and that there is
> a system of rules under which not all developments are allowable.
>
> Even when two poskim disagree on a given psak, they do not choose from an
> infinite array of subjectively chosen possibilities when they arrive at
> their respective decisions, but from an allowable range which is distinctly
> finite and bound by known rules.
>

agreed there are limitations see below

You can play a hundred games of chess, according to the rules of chess,
>

Are the rules themselves fixed? - see below

and from the same initial setup you can arrive at a hundred different final
> chessboard arrangements, but all of them will be derivable from the same
> rules.  A chess player can glance at the final chessboard and tell you
> instantly that in one case, the final board was not a possible outcome of
> the rules of chess and that his three-year-old must have put pieces on the
> board after the game was over.  (The three-year-old in my analogy is a
> Reform or Conservative rabbi who isn't happy with the allowable range of
> chess moves and doesn't really care how he gets to the final board as long
> as he likes the way it looks.)
>

Ture R & C rabbis hae a deinite agenda. Many Argue that ther are many  O
rabbis who also decide the issue BEFORE looking up the sources!

*--Toby Katz
> =============*
>

OK let's concede teh following
GIVEN: Halacha can Evolve

Question: Can the RULES for making Halachah evolve?.

Illustration:
Given the Talmud's authority in Halacha cannot be over-ruled. [we can
quibble about this but let's leave it alone arguendo]

Question:

   1. Can OTHER texts be simlarly authorized e.g. the Shulchan Aruch?
   2. Can other texts be included - e.g. Mishna Brrurau
   3. Can we SUBTRACT texts? e.g. the ein mihspat ner Mitzva uincludes
   the Semag as 1 of the big 4. Who learns Semag anymore?
   4. Or is it NEVER about texts per se?

I think the point about the chess match is that the rules themselves are not
100% stable.
When you had a Sanhedrin, IT was the stabilizing uniifying force.

I hve bee n on a quest for about 10-20 years to find a definitve set of
rules for making Halachah. Not only have I falied to find agreemnt, I cannot
find a single text taht says this is how it is SUPPOSEd to work.  yaakov
Katz and Menachem elon have outlined how it HAS worked. But I know of no
defeinitve mongraph on HOW TO MAKE HALACHAH


And think about this:
Can you ever over-rule a Rabbi's pesak based upon some meta-rule of Halacha
that was not respected?  IOW rabbis are not only making pesak on an issue,
they are also defacto ruling on HOW to make pesak!

Iillustration: When I made any decisiosn regarding to shul minhaggim or
nusach, I would search for a precedent and I would ONLY consult with
rabbonim who were familiar with the German Minhag.

[See NishmaBlog's survey on a related matter]


Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
Please Visit:
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On 10/23/07, T613K@aol.com <T613K@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Even when two poskim disagree on a given psak, they do not choose from an
> infinite array of subjectively chosen possibilities when they arrive at
> their respective decisions, but from an allowable range which is distinctly
> finite and bound by known rules.
>
> You can play a hundred games of chess, according to the rules of chess,
> and from the same initial setup you can arrive at a hundred different final
> chessboard arrangements, but all of them will be derivable from the same
> rules.  A chess player can glance at the final chessboard and tell you
> instantly that in one case, the final board was not a possible outcome of
> the rules of chess and that his three-year-old must have put pieces on the
> board after the game was over.  (The three-year-old in my analogy is a
> Reform or Conservative rabbi who isn't happy with the allowable range of
> chess moves and doesn't really care how he gets to the final board as long
> as he likes the way it looks.)
>
>
> *--Toby Katz
> =============*
>

I have a bitter fed with a colleague of mine - let's call him Rabbi ABC.
Regarding the issue of women and kerias Megillah Rabbi ABC posits the
following:

   1. The Tosefta in the place of a conflicting Bavli is NOTHING
   2. The Bahag and Tosafos use the Tosefta to override the the Bavli in
   ARachin 3-4 that permits women to read megillah for men. [af hein hayu b'oso
   haneis ipmlies that like ner Hanukkah, they can do Negillah]
   3. Ergo  Behag and Tsoafos themselves are NOT playing by the rules of
   Halacha themselves
   4. And therefore they really are not doing Halachah, but playing
   games  C"V
   5. And [to add insult to insult] they are pursuing a consistently
   misogynist agenda

let's recap:
He claims that the Bavli trumps all and THAT is a rule of pesak:

   1. is that a fact?  is the Bavli the final arbiter of pesak?
   2. Or is the the decisiveness of the Bavli a matter of debate?
   3. are there sources to prove one side or the other? [believe me I am
   looking at this ll the time?

Toby claims that R&C rabbis decide the issue first and find support in texts
that suits their agenda.  But Rabbi ABC posits that Behag, Toafos and many
Orthodox rabbis do this frequently, too. That a decision is mad on some
agenda and sources are mustered to make the argument plausible, or cogent
post facto.  First comes a minhag afterwards come the rationale.

How can  I answer Rabbi ABC? As a jew in need I request YOUR help!

Disclaimer: I do not consider Rabbi ABC an honest broker of the facts of how
Halachah works. But in the interest of da mah lehashiv, I need something
that can be "makheh es shinav".



-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
Please Visit:
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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I do not see what is wrong with the original question. You are claiming that since a majority of Ashkenazic shuls do recite it, it must be mutar? Why is this? Is perfectly feasible that it is ossur - what rayeh do you have that is it mutur. (I personally do not understand a tzad to assur it (except shinever rov), but what most shuls do is irrelevant to heter v'issur

  From: RallisW@aol.com 

  >>Is one permitted to recite An-im Zemiros on Shabbos or Yom Tov as a  majority 
  of Ashkenazic shuls do? Is one allowed to recite it at the end of  davening? <<


  >>>>>
  Your question is strange.  If the majority of Ashkenazic shuls recite An'im Zemiros then ipso factor it must be mutar.  Your question should then be worded, "Why is it permitted to recite An'im Zemiros on Shabbos and Yom Tov?"  In return I would ask, what would be the reason to think that one might /not/ be permitted to recite An'im Zemiros on Shabbos and Yom Tov, or that one might /not/ be permitted to recite it at the end of davening?



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According to Rav Hamburger, one acts in one of two ways in regard to making  
Birchos Hatoroh:
 
1) If one learns before davenen (Yekkish term - orenen) one recites  Birchos 
Hatoroh followed by Y'vorechecho [Mikro], & Aylu Devorim [Mishnoh  & 
Gemoro]....
 
2) If one davens/orens before learning then one recites Birchos  Hatoroh 
before the Parshas Hatomid [Mikro], then Ayso Mekomon [Mishnoh], and  Rabi 
Yishmoel [Sifroh]. 
[Just an aside why don't most recite Ayso Mekomon? Is it only a matter of  
time?]  



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> On Mon, October 22, 2007 1:12 pm, kennethgmiller@juno.com wrote:
> : There is a timeline on pp 596-7 of Vol 3 of The Torah Anthology....
> : 2085: Isaac enters Shem's academy
> : 2121: Jacob goes to academy
> : 2158: Shem dies; Jacob returns from academy
> : 2171: Jacob goes to Eber's academy
> : 2187: Eber dies

Alshich in Vayeishev suggests that Tamar was in contact with her father,
Sheim, at the time of the episode with Yehuda. According to this chronology,
Sheim had already died - are there any other versions?

KT,
MYG

R' Micha Berger wrote:
> O
>
> It is Sheim's academy in Yitzchaq's day, then it's Eiver's in Yaaqov's
> later trip. I do not know if there was a time when both ran academies
> simultaneously. Also, it's possible that from 2158 to 2171 there was
> no academy. Nor do we have indication Eiver's academy was necessarily
> in the same location.
>
>   
There is a site in Tzefas labeled the yeshiva of Shem and Ever.

"According to legend, Safed is where Shem and Ever, son and grandson of 
Noah, established their yeshiva where Jacob (Yaakov Avinu) studied for 
many years."
 http://www.safed.co.il/

Daniel Eidensohn

RnTK:


> My whole life I have known that kohanim don't go to cemeteries.  I've been
> married to a kohen for 30 years, and that's just how it is -- kohanim don't
> go to lavayos, they don't go to cemeteries, they don't even go to their own
> parents' graves.  In fact, kohanim are buried at the edge of the cemetery so
> their kohen relatives can "visit" them from across the way without having to
> actually enter the cemetery.

Even aside from that, kohanim go to the cemetery for the shiva krovim,
or even for their spouse's shiva krovim, but stay on the concrete
paths.  My grandmother's family was Kohanim.  Uncle Malcolm came to
all the levayas for his sisters, and I think some of my Kahn cousins
came as well, but stayed on the path.  If they go to a funeral in a
funeral parlor, they stay in a side room, or on the street, or in some
places in a separate box outside with a wired sound/video hookup.

Maybe that's your husband's family custom, but other kohanim do differently.

> > Now all of a sudden it turns out that kohanim do go to cemeteries, no big
> deal, and have always done so, and the Gemara talks about it.  All they need
> is a box, a common priestly accouterment, readily attained, I would assume,
> at the funeral home or at your nearest Kohanim-R-Us supply store.

so why not use the box on shabbos to carry stuff?  wear the box on
suspenders, and carry stuff inside.  you're inside a fence.

> > Naturally I have to wonder if this is one of those things we have "always"
> known and "always" done that people really only started doing with the
> passing of the last Lubavitcher rebbe.

No, no, many of my mother's relatives died before the Lubavitcher Rebbe.

--
        name: jon baker              web: http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker
     address: jjbaker@panix.com     blog: http://thanbook.blogspot.com

On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 12:58:11PM -0400, Micha Berger wrote:
: I am hoping to have something on the apparent setirah at
: http://www.aishdas.org/asp by the end of the weekend, be"H....

It's been a long weekend, but
http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2007/10/anger-and-the-golden-mean.shtml

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On 10/23/07, RallisW@aol.com <RallisW@aol.com> wrote:
>
>  According to Rav Hamburger, one acts in one of two ways in regard to
> making Birchos Hatoroh:
>
> 1) If one learns *before* davenen (Yekkish term - orenen) one recites
> Birchos Hatoroh followed by Y'vorechecho [Mikro], & Aylu Devorim [Mishnoh &
> Gemoro]....
>
> 2) If one davens/orens before learning then one recites Birchos Hatoroh
> before the Parshas Hatomid [Mikro], then Ayso Mekomon [Mishnoh], and Rabi
> Yishmoel [Sifroh].
> [Just an aside why don't most recite Ayso Mekomon? Is it only a matter of
> time?]
>

Tangentially:

   1. I have a time-based compromise for Ezehu mekoman. When I am running
   late I say 1 mishnah per day and the last 2 on Sahbbos completing the perek
   at least once a week instead of daily
   2.  I do no know why in Yehsivos we omitted pashas hatamid.  Most
   shuls that cut karboanos short STILL say Parsahs hatamid
   3. Why don't Ashknezim say Parshas hatimd at Minhah as do Sephardim?
   IOW I get why Ashkenazim omit the ketores but why omit the Tamid?


-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
Please Visit:
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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Silverman, Philip B wrote:

> A question to ask the gift-givers: ?What would you do if Ardeban (or 
> Governor Crist) sent you a wreath in return??

1) What's wrong with a wreath?
2) The fact is that Rebbi wasn't worried about anything like that.
Which would seem to be proof enough that no such worry is necessary.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

Richard Wolpoe wrote:

> In some communites, Holeh Misheeirach's are very narowly limited. Chabad 
> has a really short version - bascialy just shabbos hi miliz'ok.
> In German communites the full nusach is used but ONLY for people in 
> sxtreme condition

Chabad also says the full version on Shabbos for those who are in an
extreme condition.


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas


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