Avodah Mailing List

Volume 24: Number 54

Wed, 14 Nov 2007

• 1. Watch whom you marry (Michael Elzufon)
• 2. Re: Vayeitze "Watch Whom You Marry" (T613K@aol.com)
• 3. Vayeitze: "Are You Sleeping or Are You Dreaming?" (SBA)
• 4. Re: Vayeitze "Watch Whom You Marry" (Rich, Joel)
• 5. Re: Vayeitze "Watch Whom You Marry" (SBA)
• 6. Re: Vayeitze "Watch Whom You Marry" (David Riceman)
• 7. Re: Vayeitze "Watch Whom You Marry" (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 8. Re: Vayeitze "Watch Whom You Marry" (SBA)
• 9. Re: Vayeitze "Watch Whom You Marry" (SBA)
• 10. Re: Vayeitze "Watch Whom You Marry" (T613K@aol.com)
• 11. Re: Vayeitze "Watch Whom You Marry" (Zev Sero)
• 12. Re: Yeshivat Shem Vaever (Rich, Joel)
• 13. Re: Vayeitze "Are You Sleeping or Are You Dreaming?" (David Riceman)
• 14. Torah Institutions = Tzeddakah? (regalkit@aol.com)

> R' Richard Wolpoe asked:
> > How did HKBH let Y'aaov Avinu have relations with Le'ah that
> > night when his Kesubbah said Rachel - which meant his bi'ah
> > was assur.
>
> I figure it's a kal vachomer from the heter to marry two sisters:


WADR: This does no address my question at all
Ya'akov CONCSIOUSLY married 2 sisters.  Whether he did the right thing
or
the wrong thing he STILL had bechira.

In fact: Ya'akov had 3  options:

   1. Annul the marriage to Le'ah
   2. Give up on Rachel
   3. Add Rachel to  his existing marraige to  Le'ah

Ya'kov did NOT have to marry 2 sisters at all.  Even if he did #1 he
still
could have  married Rachel whilst Le'ah was alive since after all it was
a
Mikach Ta'us.  Why Ya'kov chose what he chose and did what he did has
already been justified to my satisfaction.

To reiterate: the original question is strictly about the case of HBKH
protecting tzadikkim from UNINTENDED acts.  And this impacted the
relationship with Le'ah and hurt Reuven in the sense he was in effect
born
out of wedlock if you accept that Le'ah was impregnated that very night.


From: "Liron Kopinsky" <liron.kopinsky@gmail.com>

Lurker piping in here for a second.
1) I don't have a source, but I heard once that Ramban says that Ya'akov
only kept all of the mitzvot while he was in Eretz Yisrael.
2) It has always bothered me how Rashi could say that Ya'akov kept
Taryag
Mitzvot when we know explicitly that he didn't by marrying Rachel.
Kol Tuv,
~Liron Kopinsky
[[MJE]] The Ramban RLK is referring to is at Bereshith 26:3.  The Ramban
also makes the point that it was all b'torath eino m'tzuveh v'oseh and
concludes that pshat is that the Avoth kept sheva mitzvoth bnei Noah and
brith milah, specific commands (go to Eretz C'na'an, the Akedah, etc.),
belief in G-d, and good midoth. Other rishonim say more or less the same
thing. 

RRW's question starts by holding an aggada to the rigorous standards of
pshat.  That is sweet if you can draw something good out of it, but
there is no need to do so.

 
 
From: "Rich, Joel" _JRich@sibson.com_ (mailto:JRich@sibson.com) 



>>My  response to your question would be "mida k'neged mida." This was a 
result of  Yaakov's famous deception when he disguised himself as Esav.   

========================================

as in the famous shtuch-  ?????? ??? ?? 
(??) ????? ??? ?? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ?????? ????  ??????<<
kt

joel rich



>>>>>
As you can see, the famous shtuch leaves many question marks in my mind  (and 
on my screen.)
IOW please be reminded that not all of us can read Hebrew on our  screens.  
Please transliterate Hebrew, Aramaic and Yiddish.  Thank  you.

 

--Toby  Katz
=============



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From: "Richard Wolberg" < >
.. "Vayikatz Ya'akov mishnaso," And Jacob awoke from his sleep..."
Now my question is: if it says "Jacob awoke," then why does it
have to say "from his sleep?"  Of course it was from his sleep. All it had
to say was: "And Jacob awoke."  

Further, if you look at verses 11 and 12, it says "...vayishkav bamakom
ha-hu. Vayachalom..." "...and he lay down in that place. And he dreamt..."
Now why didn't it say: "...and he lay down in that place AND HE SLEPT," and
THEN "And he dreamt..."?  

So in the first instance it says Jacob awoke "from his sleep" which is
redundant and the second example it says he lay down and dreamt. There is
should have included (he lay down) AND HE SLEPT and dreamt. You might say
that the fact that he dreamt indicated that of course he slept. However, if
that's the case, then the Torah should have been consistent and the first
time should just have said "And Jacob awoke..."  
>>>>>>

See the Baal haTurim dh 'Mishnosoy': "Kari bei 'mimishnosoy' - (source
Midrash Rabba 69:9) - and the BhT explains "Mitoch shehoyo hogeh baTorah
bayom - gam balayla lo shochav milahagos bo bechalomoy"

And you may be interested to learn that the peirush "Maharzu" on MR(in my
edition, by HaRav Zev Wolf Einhorn of Horodna) actually writes that this
Midrash is answering your first question. Vezeh Leshono: "Mimishnosoy - ki
teivas 'mishnosoy' meyutar"

I think that al pi zeh most of your problems are solved...

SBA

 


________________________________

	From: T613K@aol.com [mailto:T613K@aol.com] 
	Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 8:04 AM
	To: avodah@lists.aishdas.org; Rich, Joel
	Subject: Re: Vayeitze "Watch Whom You Marry" 
	
	
	
	From: "Rich, Joel" JRich@sibson.com <mailto:JRich@sibson.com> 
	
	
	
	>>My response to your question would be "mida k'neged mida."
This was a result of Yaakov's famous deception when he disguised himself
as Esav.  
	
	========================================
	
	as in the famous shtuch- ?????? ??? ?? 
	(??) ????? ??? ?? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ?????? ???? ??????<<
	kt
	
	joel rich
	
	
	>>>>>
	As you can see, the famous shtuch leaves many question marks in
my mind (and on my screen.)
	IOW please be reminded that not all of us can read Hebrew on our
screens.  Please transliterate Hebrew, Aramaic and Yiddish.  Thank you.
	 
	
	--Toby Katz
	=============

	 Sorry- Breishis  29:26 - Vayomer Lavan lo yaaseh kein bmkomeinu
latet hatzirah lifnei habchira (Not like you did!)
	KT
	Joel Rich 

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From: "kennethgmiller@juno.com" < >
Here's my question on this parsha: Why did Rachel have to relate to
subterfuge to accomplish all this? Why couldn't she go to Yaakov and say,
"Listen, we have a problem. I can't marry you while Leah is still single."
The only answer I can come up with is that she feared Yaakov would have
cancelled the whole thing. Anyone else?
>>

Yep. See Rashi 29:25.
It seems while Yaakov may have had suspicions about Lavan's intentions and
gave Rochel certain simanim, Rochel definitely didn't expect it.

She only realized it when she saw that Leah and not she - was being led to
the chuppa. Not wanting her sister to be shamed - she handed over to her the
pre-arranged simonim.

SBA

Zev Sero wrote:
> Richard Wolpoe wrote:
>
>   
>> Question: How did HKBH let Y'aaov Avinu have relations with Le'ah that 
>> night when his Kesubbah said Rachel - which meant his bi'ah was assur.   
>>     
>
> 1. It's an explicit Tosfos that this applies only to food, not to
> other issurim.
>
>   
See Rashi Breishis 39:6.

David Riceman

R' Richard Wolpoe wrote:
> Ya'kov did NOT have to marry 2 sisters at all.  Even if he
> did #1 he still could have  married Rachel whilst Le'ah was
> alive since after all it was a Mikach Ta'us.  Why Ya'kov
> chose what he chose and did what he did has already been
> justified to my satisfaction. To reiterate: the original
> question is strictly about the case of HBKH protecting
> tzadikkim from UNINTENDED acts.

I suspect that your presumptions are faulty. To say that "HKBH protects tzadikim from unintended acts" is incomplete and inaccurate. It would be better to say that "HKBH protects tzadikim from unintended and unnecessary acts".

The difference is that marrying these two sisters was a necessary act. Rachel and Leah both understood how critical it was that they should both be mothers to klal Yisroel. HaShem *couldn't* protect Yaakov from this sin, because He too understood that it was necessary.

Associated events, though, were not necessary. Your question about kesubah is a good one. Perhaps there was some way to arrange things so that (even if he does have to marry two sisters) he could avoid having relations with someone who he did not give a kesuba to. Similarly, perhaps there was some way he could avoid having relations with someone who was not mekudeshes to him.

When I thought of this "mekudeshes" example, a possible answer occurred to me: At the wedding, I suppose he gave Kiddushin not specifically to Rachel, but rather to whoever it was under that veil, with no preconditions. In that manner, the kiddushin was valid even to Leah. Similarly, rather than writing a document which would contain the wife's name, I suppose that he brought some specific valuable objects and gave them to the safekeeping of his wife's family, and that's what served as the kesubah. (Side question: Lavan was notoriously unreliable as regards to Yaakov, but perhaps he could be trusted to faithfully watch out for his daughters' interests?)

Akiva Miller

R' Richard Wolpoe asked:
> How did HKBH let Y'aaov Avinu have relations with Le'ah that
> night when his Kesubbah said Rachel - which meant his bi'ah
> was assur.

The Chizkuni writes (29:25): "Ve'im Tomar, Veha hayu lehu kidushei Taus dehu
savur shehu Rochel?
Veyesh Lomar, misheyoda shehu Leah bo'al leshem Kidushin.."

(However, lechoreh from the pasuk it is mashma that Yaakov only realized
that it was Leah in the morning.?)

And while on the Chizkuni, he also talks about the problem of Yaakov
marrying 2 sisters (29:28). After all, as we know, Yaakov Avinu observed the
entire Torah ("VeTaryag mitzvos shomarti")?

If I understand what he writes (and I am not 100% certain that I do), he
says that 'ger shenisgayer kekatan shenolad dami' - suggesting that Rochel
and Leah were nisgayer. 
Secondly that Rochel and Leah had different - non-Jewish - mothers and with
goyim the offspring reckoned according to their mother - thus they were not
real sisters.

SBA

From: Zev Sero < >
T613K@aol.com wrote:

> And further to your question -- how did HKBH let Yakov marry Rochel, 
> once he was already married to Leah, since he would now be married to 
> two sisters?

Keeping all the mitzvos was a hiddur.  Keeping ones word was a chiyuv.
Since he'd promised to marry Rachel he had no right to break that
promise just because he wanted to be a chassid and keep mitzvos that
hadn't yet been given.
>>

In which case iz shverr the 'veTaryag mitzvos shomarti".

SBA

 
 
>>Keeping all the mitzvos was a hiddur.  Keeping ones word was  a chiyuv.
Since he'd promised to marry Rachel he had no right to break  that
promise just because he wanted to be a chassid and keep mitzvos  that
hadn't yet been given.<< [--RZS]
>>

>>In  which case iz shverr the 'veTaryag mitzvos  shomarti".<<

SBA

>>>>>
Someone else also brought up that point.  But "Taryag mitzvos  shomarti" is 
shverr even without Yakov marrying two sisters.  NO ONE can do  all 613 -- 
unless you are a man, a woman, a kohen, a levi, a Yisrael, a king, a  judge, a 
witness, the brother in law of a childless widow, and so on, all at the  same 
time.   "Taryag mitzvos shomarti" just means, "I kept the  Torah"  -- I kept the 
mitzvos I had to keep, I served Hashem -- despite  Lavan's influence.  
"Shamarti" doesn't even have to mean "I kept" -- it can  also mean, "I upheld, I 
guarded."




--Toby  Katz
=============



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David Riceman wrote:
> Zev Sero wrote:
>> Richard Wolpoe wrote:

>>> Question: How did HKBH let Y'aaov Avinu have relations with Le'ah that 
>>> night when his Kesubbah said Rachel - which meant his bi'ah was assur.   
   
>> 1. It's an explicit Tosfos that this applies only to food, not to
>> other issurim.
  
> See Rashi Breishis 39:6.

I can't see anything relevant in that Rashi.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

Special Note Five: There is a notable question many have asked relating
to this week's Parsha--and an incredible response, given, once again, by
HaRav Chaim Kanievsky, Shlita.  Rashi teaches that Yaakov Avinu went to
study in the Yeshiva of Shem and Ever for 14 years prior to traveling to
Lavan in Charan.  What could he have studied there--after all did not
Avraham Avinu come to the Torah on his own without being taught by any
of his ancestors?  Indeed, the Torah teaches "Because *Avraham*
...observed My safeguards, My commandments, My decrees, and my
teachings" (Bereishis 26:5).  The Pasuk seems to indicate that it was
Avraham Avinu--and no one else--who observed the Torah.  So, once again,
what was being taught in the Yeshiva of Shem and Ever?  We might think
that the Seven Mitzvos of Bnei Noach were being taught there in
tremendous depth.  HaRav Kanievsky, Shlita, however, rejects this
approach.  Instead, he simply and succinctly states that "they studied
Yiras Shamayim."  What an extraordinary teaching!  Yaakov Avinu, the
"Bechir ShebeAvos--Chosen of the Fathers", the last forefather, from
whom came all of the Shevatim--and after whom we are all named as the
"Bnei Yisroel"--studied fourteen years of Yiras Shamayim--the fear of
Heaven--before going to meet the challenges of the world outside him!
We can now well understand why the Mishna Berura (Shulchan Aruch, Orach
Chaim 603, seif katan 2) brings from both the Arizal and the Gra that
one should study a Mussar text every day.  It is certainly an auspicious
time--and Parsha--to rededicate or reenergize ourselves in the daily
study of a classic Mussar work!

--------------------------
Hakhel MIS
--------------------------
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Richard Wolberg wrote:
>
> I don't know if the following question has ever been asked.  Chapter 
> 28, verse 16 states: "Vayikatz Ya'akov mishnaso," And Jacob awoke from 
> his sleep..." Now my question is: if it says "Jacob awoke," then why 
> does it have to say "from his sleep?"
>

Many years ago I said Purim Torah about this.  There's a machloketh 
between R. Haim Volozhin (in Nefesh HaHayim) and the Baal Shem Tov (in 
Tzavath HaRivash, cited anonymously in Nefesh HaHayyim) about whether it 
is forbidden or mandatory to interrupt one's study of Torah with 
thoughts of God.  The pasuk here tells us that Yaakov Avinu paskened 
like the Baal Shem Tov.  The appropriate translation is: "Ya'akov paused 
his review of mishnayoth and said Verily God is in this place."

David Riceman

I don't know if this was discussed in the past, however I was wondering if anyone knows the source for calling Torah Institution donations tzeddakah? The importance in its definition is because it's a mitzvas aseh (Mishne Torah Matanot la Aniyim 7:1).The Rambam gives different grades of importance for Tzeddakah, however only needy people are mentioned. Today, any form of Jewish philanthropy seems to be Tzeddakah, whether it's for a Yeshiva, shul, Hatzalah, Mikvaos, Bikkur Cholim etc. There is definitely a priority given to a pauper who is a Talmid Chochom over a regular person. 


      

"If a person is wealthy, 
      instead of building a synagogue or bet midrash he rather 
      should give his money to respected scholars to enable them to study Torah. Sefer Chassidim 1039"

There are may differences (nafke minahs). If a person makes a neder "Selah zu lizdakah bishvil sheyichye bni", and then gives the money to a Yeshiva has he obligated his vow? Hashem left us in Galus with two forms of gaining forgiveness; prayer and charity. Tzeddakah tatzil mimaves.
Of course giving to a Yeshiva is a mitzva of Hachzakas hatorah, to Hatzola is chessed, etc., but can they be defined as tzeddakah?
And if it is Tzedakah on what level of priority do these donations have vis-a-vis charity to a pauper.
Binyomin Hirsch






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