Avodah Mailing List
Volume 25: Number 13
Wed, 09 Jan 2008
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: "Moshe Y. Gluck" <mgluck@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 13:11:15 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] 15 different fruits on Tu B'shvat
R' Liron Kopinsky:
On a separate note, the quote about being asked about "everything that his
eyes beheld and he did not wish to eat" still doesn't seem to require
someone to go to the Alps. Since the Alps are not in front of me now and I
can't see them, I should not be required to use them. However, if someone
were to place a juicy steak in front of me, even if my general practice
might be to abstain from meat during the week, it would seem that I should
eat the steak as it is something I am currently beholding and would
otherwise be refusing to partake in Hashem's good.
Maybe a Ba'al Mussar would say that you should eat from the steak - but only
one bite.
KT,
MYG
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Message: 2
From: Zev Sero <zev@sero.name>
Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 13:31:39 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] 15 different fruits on Tu B'shvat
Dov Bloom wrote:
> The Seder Tu BiShvat [...] is especially common among Sephardim and
> later - Chassidim . There is a story that the Hiddushei HaRim asked
> RMM of Kotzk to give a DT at a seder TuBiShvat. Chabad also does it,
This, at least, is definitely not true.
> as do many other Chassidim and many Sephardim from Morocco to Iraq.
--
Zev Sero Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name interpretation of the Constitution.
- Clarence Thomas
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Message: 3
From: Zev Sero <zev@sero.name>
Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 14:43:52 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] [Areivim] "Blei Gissen" should we believe in
On Areivim Daniel Wells wrote:
> But coming back to mezuza-readers see the following in the section about
> ketuvot:
> http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache:pbaDNkbt7hgJ:www.seliyahu.org.il/parasha/par5760/epar60048.rtf+mezuzah-reader&;hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2
> <http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache:pbaDNkbt7hgJ:www.seliyahu.org.il/parasha/par5760/epar60048.rtf+mezuzah-reader&;hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2>
The URL ( http://tinyurl.com/2f5cr6 ) points to a piece by R Aviner,
in which he says: "These are our spiritual resources, and there is no
need to look for all kinds of strange things. Where are all of these
strange things mentioned? In the Torah? In Scripture? In the Mishnah?
Is it written that when our great sages had troubles, they used segulot,
with mezuzot and amulets? Where have we heard of such a thing? Not in
the Torah, not in the Mishnah and not in the Talmud."
To which I reply, have you seen Perek Bameh Ishah? I don't know how
someone can state with a straight face that the Amoraim did not believe
in or use segulot and amulets. One can argue with the Rambam that they
were mistaken in so doing, but to deny that they did so in the first
place?
--
Zev Sero Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name interpretation of the Constitution.
- Clarence Thomas
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Message: 4
From: Dov Bloom <dovb@netvision.net.il>
Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 21:47:30 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] 15 different fruits on Tu B'shvat
The Hemdat Yamim pulmus was mentioned in a post of mine on Avodah V20 Issue #25, responding to Jon Baker about Hakafot on Shmini Atzeret.
Please pardon my incorrect references to H HaY - it is Hemdat Yamim without the "Ha".
It is wothwhile to note that the sefer Hemdat [Ha]Yamim was accused by achronim such as RY Eibshitz as well as some modern scholars of being influenced by Shabbetaism. The Munkatcher Rebber also scorned the sefer. There was a discussion about the sefer in Chabad - if the Rebbi distrusted it or held by it, no longer online.
Someone named M. Fogel wrote a whole article a few years ago re-analysing the accusations against Hemdat Yamim in an article published in a book called "HaChalom VeShivro" all about the Shabbatean movement.
At any rate, for anything where the Hemdat Yamim is a primary proof, best tread with care.
Dov
>The author of Hemdas Yomim (part 3, Days of Sukkot, ch. 8) did not have a ms. of Shaar Hakavvanot, and relied on R' Jacob Tzemach.
>...
>In fact, the Chasidish minhag to make hakafot on leil Shmini Atzeret was a chiddush of the Hemdat Yamim (ibid., ch 7), to express unity with the Jews of EY who were making their hakafot that night. It was picked up by R' Alexander Ziskind of Horodno (Yesod veShoresh HaAvodah 11:16).
>..... there was a conscious choice made by the author of Hemdat Yamim, and ratified by
>early Chasidim, to do extra hakafot on the night of Shmini Atzeret.
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Message: 5
From: Gershon Seif <gershonseif@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 11:56:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Avodah] kinetic healing and halacha
A relative called me last night asking if I had a copy of last year's Guide to Pesach from Rav Blumenkrantz. I did not. This relative told me that they had been told about a few pages in there talking about kinetic healing and how it is kishuf.
Leaving aside Rav Blumenkratz's approach to halacha please, which really isn't the point here, can anyone share what they know about this subject? I promised the relative, who was very upset for some reason, to try and tell them what I can come up with soon.
Rabbi Gershon Seif
Director of Development, Midwest NCSY
Phone: (847) 677-6279
Fax: (847) 675-0745
click here to hear my original music
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Message: 6
From: Michael Poppers <MPoppers@kayescholer.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 18:20:33 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] 15 different fruits on Tu B'shvat
(Sorry, hit the Send key way too early!)
In Avodah Digest V25#12, RLK asked:
> This touches on an idea I've been having some trouble with.
Mesillat Yesharim, Chapter on Perishut....Even though...a man will have to
give an accounting to the
Presence for everything that his eyes beheld and he did not wish to eat,
though permitted and able to do so...the Ramchal still says that it is
proper to abstain as much as possible from
all worldly pleasures: :
' The undesirable type of separation is that of the foolish gentiles who
abstain not only from that which is not essential to them, but also from
that which is...' <
Why does this mean anything other than that, if "able," one should "behold"
that which is "permitted" but not indulge in such "beholding"? RSRH would
IMHO agree.
RMM responded:
> I'd view it as a machloket. <
I would disagree w/ RMM.
All the best from
--Michael Poppers via RIM pager
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Message: 7
From: "Moshe Y. Gluck" <mgluck@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 18:42:58 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] kinetic healing and halacha
R' Gershon Seif:
A relative called me last night asking if I had a copy of last year's Guide
to Pesach from Rav Blumenkrantz. I did not. This relative told me that they
had been told about a few pages in there talking about kinetic healing and
how it is kishuf.
Leaving aside Rav Blumenkratz's approach to halacha please, which really
isn't the point here, can anyone share what they know about this subject? I
promised the relative, who was very upset for some reason, to try and tell
them what I can come up with soon.
Could your relative have been talking about applied kinesiology?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applied_kinesiology As far as I can tell, it
isn't Kishuf, for the simple reason that it doesn't work...
KT,
MYG
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Message: 8
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 20:21:30 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] kinetic healing and halacha
On Tue, Jan 08, 2008 at 06:42:58PM -0500, Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
: Could your relative have been talking about applied kinesiology?
: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applied_kinesiology As far as I can tell, it
: isn't Kishuf, for the simple reason that it doesn't work...
I'm missing something. Its purported mechanism is purely physical,
something about smoothness of muscle movement and taste and smell
responses caused by imbalances in the body. How would applies kinesiology
even be a candidate to be called kishuf?
I won't get into questions of endangering patients who might be lulled
out of seeking more effective treatments or geneivas da'as.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Our greatest fear is not that we're inadequate,
micha@aishdas.org Our greatest fear is that we're powerful
http://www.aishdas.org beyond measure
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Anonymous
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Message: 9
From: Gila Atwood <gila@atwood.co.il>
Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 05:24:32 +0200
Subject: Re: [Avodah] kinetic healing and halacha
This post is probably more for areivim than for avodah but the question was
asked here...
Some of them claim to be 'manipulating bodily energies'. (hints of co'hos
hatumah? reiki comes to mind... ) More like shtus gamur and where it works
it's purely placebo effect, (often ironically an effective cure for
illnesses that are psychosomatic in the first place) and at a nice price!
I knew a woman for years, sick in the head, who totally bought into AK and
related charlatanry. One example. She felt she needed a treatment and had
her husband take her across town for 200 shekel for something that was
little more than a hand waving ceremony. She went home, lay down, suddenly
did not feel quite right and had her husband take her again same day, . The
practioner knew her, didn't blink, gave her another 'treatment' , another
200 shekel. Their landlord was usually left waiting for the rent and it
came out they were more than 15 grand in debt. The woman was delusional
and these charlatans were milking her.
Another case, Har Nof, one of these 'energy practioners' told the parents
NOT to take a baby to a regular doctor, he'd take care of her. She died of
meningitis.
Years ago my friends and I interviewed one of these psychic energies healers
for a magazine. She walked past our son (at the time obviously sick with
pneumonia) several times and curiously did not notice....
Shall I go on? At the time I was so furious I had an article about it
published somewhere under a pseudonym to warn people. Many don't like this
hushed up because they say for some people it works, does wonders etc, but
the above examples disturb me too much. I had a huge long (but friendly)
argument with the owner of a large mailing list for immigrants who was
allowing ads on his list for such practitioners but was not allowing posts
to warn people. Violation of 'policy'.
Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
> : Could your relative have been talking about applied kinesiology?
> : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applied_kinesiology As far as I can tell,
> it
> : isn't Kishuf, for the simple reason that it doesn't work...
>
> I'm missing something. Its purported mechanism is purely physical,
> something about smoothness of muscle movement and taste and smell
> responses caused by imbalances in the body. How would applies kinesiology
> even be a candidate to be called kishuf?
>
> I won't get into questions of endangering patients who might be lulled
> out of seeking more effective treatments or geneivas da'as.
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>
> --
> Micha Berger Our greatest fear is not that we're inadequate,
> micha@aishdas.org Our greatest fear is that we're powerful
> http://www.aishdas.org beyond measure
> Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Anonymous
> _______________________________________________
> Avodah mailing list
> Avodah@lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
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Message: 10
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 05:41:59 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] kinetic healing and halacha
On Wed, Jan 09, 2008 at 05:24:32AM +0200, Gila Atwood wrote:
: Some of them claim to be 'manipulating bodily energies'. (hints of co'hos
: hatumah? reiki comes to mind... ) ...
[From an email I once wrote... Thus the quick response from moderation
to reply.]
AK makes no such claims. It's simply a physical claim of questionable
truth.
Reiki is more complicated.
Hardest is to define ki -- is it a physical claim, that there is an
"energy" (for want of a better word; we're not speaking of E = 1/2 mv^2
here) pervading the universe that people can manipulate? Or, is ki a
metaphysical concept?
The former returns to my general skepticism about such claims about nature
at odds with the set of conclusions currently reached through scientific
method. If it works, it would not only be permissible but laudable --
you're helping your patients. And therefore if your determination of the
facts is that it's real, I would think a halachic decisor would permit.
But if ki is taken to be a metaphysical concept, then we're getting close
to pantheism (the belief that the universe is god) or panentheism (the
universe is of G-d, but G-d is greater than the universe. Pantheism
is prohibited. Panentheism is permitted, and key to many Orthodox
philosophies (particular within Chassidus). But to try to get results
through manipulating the godliness inherent in the universe would be
prohibited as theurgy; ie magic. The Talmud's case is reciting verse
over the sick in an attempt to force Hashem to heal them.
The "rei" of "reiki" I think pretty much translates to "metaphysical"
-- it's Japanese for "hidden / unseen". IMHO, beliefs about Ki /
Ch'i / Chakras vary by teacher. The more Buddhist influenced seem more
problematic to me. While I am not comfortable with any of them, I could
see room to permit the less religiously-oriented teacher.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Life is complex.
micha@aishdas.org Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org The Torah is complex.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - R' Binyamin Hecht
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Message: 11
From: "Liron Kopinsky" <liron.kopinsky@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 00:42:51 -0800
Subject: Re: [Avodah] kinetic healing and halacha
I might be mistaken, but I think the Sefer Hachinuch defines Kishuf as the
mixing of different physical components in such a way that they create an
effect in heaven. Since every object on this world has a spiritual
counterpart in shamayim, "playing" with physical objects in certain ways
mixes up their spiritual mirror as well.
With this definition it seems more likely that pharmacology would be more
likely Kishuf than any form of pseudo-science.
As a side note, I have an uncle who (I might add is very scientifically
minded and) had some back problems which just wouldn't go away. I don't
remember the exact story but through some chain of events (he knew someone
who knew someone who had met this guy or something) he ended up going to
this really quack of an alternative-medicine-guy, who made his problems go
away almost entirely in just 2 or 3 sessions, so there is something to it,
even if it's just the placebo effect.
~Liron
On Jan 8, 2008 5:21 PM, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 08, 2008 at 06:42:58PM -0500, Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
> : Could your relative have been talking about applied kinesiology?
> : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applied_kinesiology As far as I can tell,
> it
> : isn't Kishuf, for the simple reason that it doesn't work...
>
> I'm missing something. Its purported mechanism is purely physical,
> something about smoothness of muscle movement and taste and smell
> responses caused by imbalances in the body. How would applies kinesiology
> even be a candidate to be called kishuf?
>
> I won't get into questions of endangering patients who might be lulled
> out of seeking more effective treatments or geneivas da'as.
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>
> --
> Micha Berger Our greatest fear is not that we're inadequate,
> micha@aishdas.org Our greatest fear is that we're powerful
> http://www.aishdas.org beyond measure
> Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Anonymous
> _______________________________________________
> Avodah mailing list
> Avodah@lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
>
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Message: 12
From: Arie Folger <afolger@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 08:40:46 +0100
Subject: Re: [Avodah] 15 different fruits on Tu B'shvat
RMMakovi wrote:
> It reminds me of Rav Hirsch's visiting the Alps so
> that he'd be able to answer Hashem in the affirmative when asked about
> seeing His wonders.
That is based on (IIRC Rabbi Eli'ezer in) a Yerushalmi.
--
Arie Folger
http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com
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Message: 13
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 05:48:10 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] kinetic healing and halacha
On Wed, Jan 09, 2008 at 12:42:51AM -0800, Liron Kopinsky wrote:
: I might be mistaken, but I think the Sefer Hachinuch defines Kishuf as the
: mixing of different physical components in such a way that they create an
: effect in heaven. Since every object on this world has a spiritual
: counterpart in shamayim, "playing" with physical objects in certain ways
: mixes up their spiritual mirror as well.
: With this definition it seems more likely that pharmacology would be more
: likely Kishuf than any form of pseudo-science.
Pharmacology doesn't invoke the Enochian principle: "As above so below."
It's entirely physical, without invoking spiritual forces.
The Chinukh seems to be describing standard magical thinking, found
in alchemy, Enochian "Qabbalah", Gnosticism, etc... For that matter,
not to far from a voodoo doll -- make changes on the representation in
order to cause changes in the represented.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger "The most prevalent illness of our generation is
micha@aishdas.org excessive anxiety.... Emunah decreases anxiety:
http://www.aishdas.org 'The Almighty is my source of salvation; I will
Fax: (270) 514-1507 trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya
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Message: 14
From: "Rich, Joel" <JRich@sibson.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 05:43:05 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] kinetic healing and halacha
Question - iiuc many studies have shown the placebo effect, especially
if the patient believes they are receiving actual treatment. Would such
an approach be kishuf? What about if after all else that traditional
medicine would prescribe had failed?
KT
Joel Rich
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Message: 15
From: "Michael Makovi" <mikewinddale@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 12:30:39 +0200
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Chiyuv l'kabel gerim
>Aruch HaShulchan Yoreh Deah 268:6: One should not try to
>actively encourage any non-Jew to convert. In fact we should discourage
>conversion as we see in Yevamos (47a): ...
But again, this Aruch haShulchan only shows us what Yevamot says, viz.
we discourage, and if he persists, we accept him.
But do we accept because we have a chiyuv to, or only because we feel
like it, and we could just as well make him run take a pointless 50-year-long
run through a bureaucracy if we felt like it?
I.e., the nafka mina is that while we do in fact accept a sincere
would-be convert, the question is whether or not we have a chiyuv to
accept a sincere would-be. We know that there is no chiyuv to look
from stam gentiles to convert, and there is a chiyuv to convert a
would-be ger after the beit din accepts him. But the question is,
after he shows himself to be sincere but before the beit din formally
accepts him, is there a chiyuv?
Rabbi Henkin just emailed me the following. Direct quote:
Tosafot Yevamot 109b and Zohar HaRakia (Rashbatz) write that it is a
mitzva (Tosafot--"yesh lanu lekablam") to accept geirim if their
sincerity is clear (and no danger or loss to Jews is involved, an
unstated but obvious condition), but the silence of other monei
hamitzvot on the matter, and the absence of a direct bracha on
acceptance of geirim, may indicate a machloket.
I'm going to get a photocopy of the page from Bnei Banim (apparently I
live a short walk away from Rabbi Henkin), and I'll try to scan it and
mail it to the list. But no timetable yet.
Mikha'el Makovi
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