Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 130

Fri, 11 Apr 2008

• 1. renting an office to a nonJew for Pesach (Eli Turkel)
• 2. Re: Hechsher for Tevilas Kelim Exemptions (Danny Schoemann)
• 3. Re: Is having a good time ossur (Richard Wolpoe)
• 4. Re: Is having a good time ossur (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: renting an office to a nonJew for Pesach (Daniel Israel)
• 6. Halakhos of a US Governor (bdcohen@optimum.net)
• 7. sports and leisure (Michael Makovi)
• 8. K'zayis as weight not volume? (R Davidovich)
• 9. Re: buddhism (Michael Makovi)
• 10. Re: K'zayis as weight not volume? (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: sports and leisure (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: buddhism (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: Mutzkeh: Sticks, Stones, and Pets (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: Halakhos of a US Governor (Micha Berger)

rom daily halacha

<<66. If one owns, or rents an office, or a second home, one should
L'chatchilah do a Bedikah at that location on Thursday evening.
However, if it will be a great difficulty to do the Bedikah one may
rent the home/office to a non-jew for Pesach along with a sale of any
Chometz in that location. Shulchan Aruch w/Mishnah Brurah 433:5MB23,
436:MB32>>

For those peons who don't have their own business but work for someone
else how does one  "rent the home/office to a non-jew" ?
Can I rent my office in the university/work to a nonJew? Does it make
a difference if the owner of the business is Jewish? How about if
I share the office with others?

kol tuv

-- 
Eli Turkel

R' Zev Sero wrote:
That is why the L minhag is to sell the kelim to the goy for Pesach, and
not to tovel them afterwards; since they didn't physically come into the
goy's possession, he was unable to use them for treif, so they weren't
even brushed by this peripheral tum'ah.

Anecdotal data:
Our Magid Shiur (of the (pre-Daf Yomi) Mishna shiur), Rav Dov Zelaznik
shlita (Rov of the Oruch LaNer shul in Ramat Shlomo) recounted how -
some 40 years ago - he saw a very long line outside the Viznitz Keilim
Mikveh.

He was informed that the Rebbe had accidentally included in the
Mechiras Chometz contract that all vessels INCLUDING those that need
toiveling are sold to the goy.

As a result, all relevant keilim had to be toveled after Pessach.

- Danny

On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 8:00 AM, kennethgmiller@juno.com <
kennethgmiller@juno.com> wrote:

> R' Richard Wolpoe wrote:
> > I have heard besheim RYBS that only music that caused one
> > to get up and dance [lich'ora even if one did not actually
> > dance!] was the kind of music that is assur.  This dovetails
> > well with what I'm saying. I would suspect that our esteemed
> > moderator might also concur with this chiluk
>
> Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach would also concur with it.
>
> >From Halichos Shlomo on Bein Hametzarim 14:3 - "Hashira shenohagin bah
> issur biymei bein hametzarim, eina ela misug hashirim ham'orarim l'rikud. =
> The song which we avoid during the three weeks is only of the type which
> inspires one to dance."
>
>
> Akiva Miller



If you read Rishonim and  omit Acharonim the  issurim  on Sefirah seem
limitted to:


   1. Taspores
   2. nissu'in
   3. some kind of mleacha [shabasos tihyena]

IMHO [and this dovetails with Ramban] Seifrah is a quasi hulo shel mo'ed -
and as a result all of the above are assur. there is also "mitztzas aveilus"

AISI A big humra machine evolved.  Wel since nissu'in is assur what about
eirusin? So they assered issurin with dancing. all the other musical based
issurin are history.


> The flipside of this is that RYBS would assur parties during omer or
> the three weeks even without music.
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha


WADR to RYBS this is sourcesless in Rishonim.  The point of sefirah is
MITkTZAS aveilus. the Rav tried to morph it into FULL_SCALE aveilus.  See
both Tur and KItsar SA  for the  list of miktzas

ALSO imho the Rav took simcha meireiu's to a new level. The Gmara in Mo'ed
Kattan is clearly refering to reciprocal meals and is NOT referring to
getting together with friends. I have no clue how the Rav morphed the
defintion of simcha meirei'us outside of the Talmudic parameters - especally
regarding Sefira whose aveilus is a post-Talmudic minhag

While it is TRUE that the deaths of R.Akiva's talmidim is recorded in the
Talmud, the first mention of any aveilus FOR US is strictly Ga'onic!
[After al - lthe Rav is the one who reejcted Ga'onic innovations wrt
additions to Tefillah [except for Zhcreinu leahcyyim etc.]]
I have heard that the Rav cited call detakin Rabbana ke'in d'orraisso tiknu
BUT

   1. Aveilus in genral is ONLY miderabbana to begin with!
   2. Aveilus during Sefirah is ONLY a minhag  of the Ga'nim

Ignoring #2 is imho acharonistic revisionism making a Ga'onic principle into
a Talmudic one. [Could be applicable to 2 vs.3 matzos on Yom Tov where
lechem mishna on YT is ONLY Ga'nic as opposed to Sahbbos which is Talmudic.
But the Rosh might hold that Ga'onic is higher leve -tantamount to Talmudl.
The GRA obviously did NOT!].

================================================================

The only reason for Ashkenazim to be super-strict might be the catastrophes
of the Crusades. But there is scant evidence that Rishonim went as far as
acharonim.

And aderabba, any pro-Zionist would see 5 Iyyar and and Yom yersuhalayyim as
factors mitigating for a LESSENING of Sefirah's aveilus in recent history.
or iow, after the Crusades heavy Aveilus was most approriate. Bizman hazeh,
[assuiming you are Zionistically inclined it is a time for ge'ulah.]

I recall members of the Breuer kehillah shocked by wholescale celebration on
5 Iyyar at YU. From the Breuer persepctive,Sefirah was being violated
[although by ZERO of the Rishonic models] From the YU model, Sefirah had
been mitigated by a tremendous yeshuah and the MINHAG of Aveilus would be
suspended for that day.

Parentheticaly - I am of the school to treat 5 iyyar [and yom yersulayyim]
just like lag ba'omer. No hallel, no tachanun.

However, re: my understanding of the Rishonic model, I have a real problem
having weddings at all during Seifrah if it is indeed a quasi hulo shel
mo'ed. [taspores would have slightly more wiggle room]


-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 09:42:40AM -0400, Richard Wolpoe wrote:
: If you read Rishonim and  omit Acharonim the  issurim  on Sefirah seem
: limitted to:
:    1. Taspores
:    2. nissu'in
:    3. some kind of mleacha [shabasos tihyena]

See the first tweo halakhos of the AhS, he implicitly deals with this
question.

In the first se'if, he writes that during the geonim, it became customary
to mark the loss of R' Aqiva's students with a minhag not to make weddings
during the omer. In the 2nd se'if he writes about the Crusades reaching
Germany during this period, and then brings in the notion of aveilus.
This would mean that our current observance of aveilus grew out of events
in 1096, and may not have been fully developed in the Ramban's day.

...
:> The flipside of this is that RYBS would assur parties during omer or
:> the three weeks even without music.

: WADR to RYBS this is sourcesless in Rishonim.  The point of sefirah is
: MITkTZAS aveilus. the Rav tried to morph it into FULL_SCALE aveilus.  See
: both Tur and KItsar SA  for the  list of miktzas

I also feel he shoehorned things that didn't really match, which is why
I will open with a request that one of RYBS's chassidim field this one.

But obviously he didn't give a shiur on the subject without lengthy
background. Rashei peraqim: RYBS defines aveilus as only coming in three
flavors: shiv'ah, sheloshim, and shanah. And thus, miqtzas aveilus would
be a term for the least level. Same as his model for the differences
between bein hametzarim, the 9 days, and 9 beAv itself.


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             With the "Echad" of the Shema, the Jew crowns
micha@aishdas.org        G-d as King of the entire cosmos and all four
http://www.aishdas.org   corners of the world, but sometimes he forgets
Fax: (270) 514-1507      to include himself.     - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 03:18:40 -0600 Eli Turkel <eliturkel@gmail.com> 
wrote:
>rom daily halacha
>
><<66. If one owns, or rents an office, or a second home, one should
>L'chatchilah do a Bedikah at that location on Thursday evening.
>However, if it will be a great difficulty to do the Bedikah one may
>rent the home/office to a non-jew for Pesach along with a sale of 
>any Chometz in that location. Shulchan Aruch w/Mishnah Brurah 
>433:5MB23, 436:MB32>>
>
>For those peons who don't have their own business but work for 
someone
>else how does one  "rent the home/office to a non-jew" ?

LAD, it I would think that the problem only exists if you rent the 
office, which makes it your reshus.  If the office doesn't belong 
to you, you just use it, why do you need to be concerned about 
chometz being there?  Of course, you presumably would still need to 
check for chometz that belongs to you, but I don't even see why it 
would need a formal bedikah.

--
Daniel M. Israel
dmi1@cornell.edu

As for NJ Governor Corzine, NJ no longer has a death penalty, so he certainly would not qualify for the beracha. He is neither maymit or michaye.
 
David I. Cohen
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From [Areivim] sports

>For more on the rabbinical attitude towards sports please see
>http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/exercise.pdf
>
> I have never understood those that prohibit sports based on bittul Torah.
> I have seen similar teshuvot that outlaw chess on the grounds of bittul Torah
>
> The facts are that except for a few rare people (Gra?) most people
> cannot possibly think intensively for long periods of time. One having
> asked RAL about similar issues he responded that the Brisker Rav would
> take long walks to clear his head.
>
> Thus some sort of break be it walks or chess or other entertainment is
> necessary to learn intensively.
>
> kol tuv
> R' Eli Turkel

You've only established that IF the person needs a break. As one rabbi
of mine at Machon Meir put it, if you take a nap to rest for study,
but you nap one moment more than you need, or if you play sport to
rest for study but play one moment more than you need, it's bittul
Torah.

What about stam for fun?

My major rabbi at Machon Meir (not the previous one above) said that
one in fact does NOT have to do everything leshem shamayim, i.e. with
the kavana of having fun to rest for study. Now, obviously, to do so
is a lofty and meritorious thing. But, he said, to do something
"'l'shem Wooh!" (his exact words; read with your hands in the air like
you're going down a waterslide) is not an averah; it isn't a mitzvah,
but it isn't an averah either.

So the point, he said, is that it's not mitzvah or averah; there IS a
neutral area in between.

Anyone know a source?

The question then, is what exactly is bittul Torah if you can
permissibly spend your whole day having fun? Perhaps it is a judgement
of reasonableness by G-d; perhaps if I play soccer for an hour or two
l'shem Wooh (not l'shem shamayim to rest for study) is mutar, but
several hours, is bittul Torah? How much time to permissibly devote to
enjoyment would then be a subjective judgment call for us all, as to
how much leisure is reasonable to have in a day. For example, maybe
you need to rest for one hour to study; but instead you play for two
hours (mutar); but had you played for more than two hours, it'd be
assur.


Mikha'el Makovi

I recently read a teshuva by R'Ovadia Yosef (Yechaveh Daat 1: 16) that gives
the measurement for the k'zayis as a weight, not volume.  Instead of saying
that the k'zayis is 28cc, which comes out to about  1/6 of a hand-matza
according to Rabbi Heinemann's water-displacing  tests, ROY says that  it is
28 grams, which is the approximately the weight of half a hand-matza.  (With
standard issue hand matza, you get about 8 matzos a pound, one slice is two
ounces, or 56 grams.)

I cannot figure out how ROY turned k'zayis and k'beitza into mass!

Does anyone have sources or answers?

-- 
RD
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> I don't think that in AZ the intention of the person is important.
> In the days of chazal if this was the way of worship then it is AZ.
> How many Romans really believed in Merculis (Mercury?) having
> stones thrown at him is irrelevant.
>
> In fact Rambam states that the origin of AZ was to consider the sum etc as
> servants of Hashem. It is still AZ
>
> kol tuv
> Eli Turkel

For a Jew, maybe. If I bow down to an idol, regardless of my kavana,
I'm chayav. But what about a gentile? Is he chayav?

I'm not sure, but I don't think a gentile is necessarily chayav if he
does AZ without kavana. He is not required to give his life rather
than practice AZ - this means he can pretend, **without kavana**, to
practice AZ, and there's no avera for him. Now, perhaps this leniency
only applies when it is oness for his very life. But perhaps this
leniency is absolute. Anyone know?

Mikha'el Makovi

On Fri, April 11, 2008 8:07 am, R Davidovich wrote:
: I cannot figure out how ROY turned k'zayis and k'beitza into mass!

Matzos are far more consistent in weight per volume than in shape.
Handmade shemurah is around .55g/cc for hand matzos, and up to .58g/cc
for machine.

It therefor becomes more accurate to measure volume using weight than
trying to do so directly.

(The above numbers are from R' Hirsch Meisels, in Going Forward, an
English, Yiddish and Hebrew periodical dealing with issues for O
diabetics. RHM found us shortly after Shuby was diagnosed. I never
found out how. An annual topic: How meikil can/must one be WRT
matzah?)

BTW, my father heard RMWillig say this past Sun that 1/5 of a hand
matzah is sufficient to cover so many chumros that it's arguably
enough for 2 kezeisim (for those who add that yet-another-chumrah).

Also, his revi'is was 2.7oz!

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
micha@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
http://www.aishdas.org     - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Thu, April 10, 2008 8:27 pm, Michael Makovi wrote:
: So the point, he said, is that it's not mitzvah or averah; there IS a
: neutral area in between.

Ever act moves the bechirah point, so no act is really neutral, IMHO.

I don't think there are three categories: mitzvah, reshus, aveirah.
Rather "reshus" is a spectrum between mitzvah and aveirah in which
things are more or less advisable.

I already posted a quote on this from RSS in the thread "Is having a
good time assur?" One is chayav to make their tafkidim in life their
highest priorities in day-to-day decision making. The fact that all
work and no play makes Jack a burnt out boy means that breaks from
that tafkid are also part of getting the job done.

Playing ball because you need some fun in your life but you actually
use that additional sanity to be an eved Hashem is at one level of
advisability.

Watching something on TV that just skirts the edges of what's
technically assur is at another. (Presuming the equivalent rest and
break from thinking about real issues could be gotten otherwise.)

There are various qualities to choices. So, an activity could be
mutar, but less lofty.

The above seems to me to be self-evident. The whole question only
arises because of an attempt to map the problem into black-and-white
categories.

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
micha@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
http://www.aishdas.org     - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Thu, April 10, 2008 8:16 pm, R Michael Makovi wrote:
: For a Jew, maybe. If I bow down to an idol, regardless of my kavana,
: I'm chayav. But what about a gentile? Is he chayav?

I think this is the essential question.

Buddhism makes effigies of people (on in particular) who they believe
were able to be consciously aware of their panentheistic nature. What
they represent is even less problematic than tripartite notions of
many Xian belief systems.

However, they use many icons, effigies, and other symbols as objects
to focus concentration on. Does the fact that they don't intend to
represent gods make it any different than idolatry? Can a mode of
worship be assur to a non-Jew if the content of the belief isn't?

I went into this assuming that if the belief wasn't assur, neither
could be the activity. RTK and RZS came in on the other side,
commenting on the use of statues and icons.

I haven't seen sources either way. I took it for granted without it
crossing my mind otherwise that if I explained the content of the
belief, the forms were irrelevant.

For Jews, OTOH, derekh emori would ban worshiping HQBH using
idolatrous modalities anyway.

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
micha@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
http://www.aishdas.org     - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Wed, April 9, 2008 1:22 pm, Doron Beckerman wrote:
: It is also not at all Pashut that Keli SheMelachto L'Issur is a
: function of Muktzeh in the sense of designation or lack thereof. It may
: be a separate Gezeirah where there is concern that one might come to
use
: it in a prohibited fashion, and it isn't that there was a *relaxation*
: of Muktzeh in terms of allowing the movement of a Keli Shemelachto
: L'Issur L'tzorech Gufo UMekomo, but there was never any Gezeira on such
: a thing in the first place

That could be true whether it is its own gezreirah or part of muqtzah.
If muqtzah is about usability on Shabbos, then letzorekh gufo o meqomo
would simply fall out of the fact that the usability is really only
because of the exclusion most common usage. It would make sense for it
to have been part of the original taqanah.

I would love to find a case in which shevus vs gezeirah would be
relevent. I'm not sure one is discussed. The kind of thing I am
looking for: A shevus is a din derabbanan, and so gezeirah could chal
on it. If it were an issue of cheshash, then it itself is a gezeirah
and ain gozerin would apply.

: See GRA to YD 266. This can explain, e.g., the dispute whether a
: KSHML"A can create a Bosis.

What would be the lemaaseh? A KSHMLI could be moved letzarich meqomo,
and a basis is meqomo. So even if it could create a basis, when would
it create an issur letalteil?

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
micha@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
http://www.aishdas.org     - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Thu, April 10, 2008 5:06 am, Simon Montagu wrote:
: On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 10:25 PM, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
: wrote:
:> When greeting the Queen of England, one does not say "shechalaq
:> mikevodo levasar vedam" besheim umalkhus because her majesty doesn't
:> make life-and-death decisions over her subjects.

: Really? I don't know about constitutional monarchs in other countries,
: but the metziut in the UK is that the sovereign personifies the
state --
: for example criminal cases are listed as Rex/Regina v. P'loni -- and
: even today when capital punishment has been abolished the state does
: make life/death decisions over its subjects in some circumstances. Are
: there shu"tim that address the specific case of the sovereign of the
UK?

I am recalling a shiur given on the topic by my LOR back when R' Prof
Yisrael Auman won the nobel prize and would be dining at a meal
attended by King Carl XVI Gustaf of Sweden.

So, no I'm not sure. Particularly since the metzi'us of the various
countries' monarchies was not the point that interested me.


However, despite what the case is called, if the queen couldn't get
away with dropping the case, or declare war on her own decision, I
don't see how one can make a berakhah recognizing Hashem's allowing
people to play god. (And that is a pretty accurate rendition of
"chalaq mikevodo", if it's defined in terms of authority to make
life-and-death decisions.)


SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
micha@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
http://www.aishdas.org     - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
Fax: (270) 514-1507



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