Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 134

Mon, 14 Apr 2008

• 1. Co-Education is it ever acceptable (Rich, Joel)
• 2. Fw: levayah minhagim (Prof. Aryeh A. Frimer)
• 3. Re: Saying L'dor vadorWas Skipping Korbanos (Zev Sero)
• 4. Re: WTG (T613K@aol.com)
• 5. Re: Raziel Hamalach (Danny Schoemann)
• 6. Re: Denying that Chazal are Oral Torah is Kefira? (Daniel Eidensohn)
• 7. Re: Raziel Hamalach [was: Is a Mezuza a Segula] (Michael Kopinsky)
• 8. Re: : Saying L'dor vadorWas Skipping Korbanos (D&E-H Bannett)
• 9. Re: K'zayis as weight not volume? (Ken Bloom)
• 10. Re: rare Pesach (Simon Montagu)
• 11. Re: Sholom Aleichem [was: Tinok Shenishba] (T613K@aol.com)

Article by R' A Lebowitz in the RJJ journal.

The general sense I got from this article is that if not for practical
considerations (this would be an interesting discussion in itself as to
which and why)the author believes that the eternal "ideal" would be for
a homogeneous orthodox community to have parallel men's and women's
societies that only intersect in the home between husband and wife and,
perhaps, immediate family members.

I'm curious as to the chevra's take on this.

KT&CKVS
Joel Rich
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    In the United States, the general custom I observed at religious
    funerals was to have all family members (male and female) go through
    the shura together which was made up of men and women. At my first
    funeral in Israel ca 1974, I noted that the Chevra Kadisha instructed
    only the men to make a shura for only the male mourners.  I asked the
    head of the Chevra Kadisha and he indicated that that's what is found
    in Rav Tackatchinsky's Gesher haChaim.  Indeed, Rav Tuckachinsky
    indicates that that was Minhag Eretz Yisrael, but he also notes that
    women don't go to Funerals at all (Based on a Zohar in Pekudai the the
    Satan is Meraked).	Needless to say, the women mourners of our Anglo
    Saxon community in Rehovot were very hurt and offended, especially
    since all knew that the Minhag in the Galut was otherwise.
    I then consulted with Rav Simcha Kook, Chief rabbi of Rehovot. On the
    one hand, he didn't want to contravene the Minhag of the Chevra
    Kadisha; on the other hand, he understood that the women needed the
    communal Nihum Aveilum.  We agreed that the men would make a shura for
    the men and the women for the women.  It took a few times for me to
    teach the women of our community what to do and what to say, but it now
    occurs without my intervention.  When someone is buried at Eretz
    haChaim Cemetery near Beit Shemesh, the same happens. The head of the
    Chevra Kaddisha makes his announcement (Men for men), and  - if the
    family wants it - we make sure there is women's shura for the women. At
    Eretz haChaim Cemetery they also don't have women Eulogizing. I spoke
    openly with the head of the Chevra Kaddisha and he indicated that after
    they leave, "we can do as we like."  So I arrange for the women to
    speak at the kever then.
    As far as keriah is concerned, women are Hayyavot just like men. In
    Eretz Yisrael, one of the women (often from the Chevra Kaddisha) helps
    the aveilot with the keriah and berakha, as do the men for the men.

--------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer
Chemistry Dept., Bar-Ilan University
Ramat Gan 52900, ISRAEL
E-mail: FrimeA@mail.biu.ac.il


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Richard Wolpoe wrote:

> People THINK that ledor vador is a speical nusach for hazaras hashatz 
> and therefore hae a possible issue of following the shatz whilst saying 
> the amidah together wtih him
> 
> BUT
> the reality [99%] is that ledor vador is simply ANOTHER nuasach of v'ta 
> kaddosh that by conventions is usually said only by the hazzan.

Indeed; Nusach Italy is to say Ledor Vador at all times, and never to
say Ata Kadosh.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

 
In  Avodah Digest, Vol 25, Issue 124 dated 4/4/2008 "Stadlan, Noam"  
<nstadlan@cinn.org>
writes:


>>If a posek decides that the motivation of a shoel is wrong,  he can decide
all the halachic issues to the side of denying the shoel  permission to do
the act.  ....  Rav Gil Student, in  his
review of Rav Herschel Schachter's view's on WTG basically admits that  RHS
consistently rules l'chumra on all the issues precisely because RHS  was
against the WTG.  The rulings on the halachic issues were a result  of a
prior decision regarding the WTG, not the other way around.  To  quote Rav
Gil, in his intro to RHS's position:

"When a question is  posed before a posek, there are a whole host of
considerations for him to  take into account. This is particularly true when
the underlying issues are  subject to dispute and can go either way. The
posek, then, has the right to  rule according to whichever opinions he
believes to be appropriate. If a  posek believes that the contemporary
context requires stringency then he  may certainly rule strictly on any
questionable matter....." 
 


....In other words, RHS decided that WTG was wrong, and ruled  accordingly on 
the
halachic issues in question....<<


>>>>>
This is a pretty good description of how da'as Torah works, if anyone is  
still wondering about the definition of that term.  The "personal" opinions  of a 
big talmid chacham are never just personal, and tend to gain wide  acceptance 
among those who respect him and who accept his authority.  Some  of those who 
move in YU circles seem to be allergic to the very idea of "da'as  Torah" but 
whether they use the term or not, that's what they're following when  they 
accede to the psak of a Torah scholar whom they respect and whose wisdom  they 
acknowledge to be greater than their own.

 

--Toby  Katz
=============





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> This is the second time that I've seen the sefer Raziel Hamalach  mentioned in A/A.
> what IS this sefer?  What's it about, who  wrote it, who is Raziel Hamalach?

From this introduction to the Sefer it appears to be something that a
Malach gave to Adam the 1st and it contains the secrets of the
universe.
(Answers.com - http://www.answers.com/topic/raziel and the Jewish
Encyclopedia http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=142&;letter=R
have a write up about it - but I can't vouch for their accuracy.)

Much of it is "names" and other kabalistic symbols.

I saw a full sized Sefer Raziel Hamalach in RMMKasher's library (on
Rechov Malachi, Jerusalem). It was part of the library he got from Rav
Perlow. It was annotated in the margins - so I guess some people do
understand what it talks about.

- Danny

R' Richard Wolpoe wrote:
> 2008/4/6 Daniel Eidensohn <yadmoshe@012.net.il 
> <mailto:yadmoshe@012.net.il>>:
>
>     The non?Jew then went to Hillel who
>     accepted him as a convert. 
>
>
> IIRC the same story in Avos derabbi Nassan with a Girsa that omits the 
> phrase that Hillel a accepted him as a convert.  Iimplying he merely 
> started learning with him on the raod to conversion
Avos DeRabbi Nosson (15:3) omits the statement that Hillel converted him 
but states immediately after the request that Hillel sat and learned 
alephbeis with him.

*???? ???? ??? (??:?):* ?? ??? ??????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? 
???? ???? ???? ?"? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??? ?"? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??"? ?"? 
?? ????? ??? ????? ?? ?? ???"? ???? ????? ?? ??? ?? ??????? ??????. ?? 
???? ??? ?"? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?"? ???? ??? ???? ??' ??"? ?"? ???? ??? 
?????? ??"? ??? ??? ?????? ?"? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?"? ?? ?? ?"? ??? 
?"? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?"? ??? ?? ?"? ??? ?"? ??? ?? ??? ??? ???? ?"? 
????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?"? ?? ???? ??? ??????? ???????? 
??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ?? ??????. ???? 
????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???"? ???? ????? ????? (???? ??) ???? ?????? 
??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?"? ??? ?? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???"? 
????? ????? ?"? ????? ?"? ?????? ?"? ??????? ??"? ?"? ??? ??? ?????? 
???? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? 
????? ???????? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ??????? ??????. ?? ???? 
?"? ??? ?????? ?"? ??????? ??"? ?????? ????? ?"? ????? ??? ?? ?? ????? 
?? ??? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ?"? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ???? 
??? ?"? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ??"? ???"? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ???? 
???? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? 
??? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ???. ??? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? 
???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? (????? ?) ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? 
?"? ????? ???? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ????? (???? ??) 
???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???"? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? 
???? ??? ?? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??????? ???"? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ?? ?? 
??? ??? ???? ?"? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?? 
???? (?????) ??????. ??????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ????"? ??? 
????"?. ???????? ?????? ???? ????"? ????. ???? ????? ?? ????? ??? ???? 
???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ???:



Maharsha(Shabbos 31a) raises the question of how Hillel could have 
accepted these gerim and  furthermore how he could have learned Torah 
with them. He answers that the conversion took place after he had 
convinced them of the halacha and once someone wants to convert it is 
permitted to learn Torah with him. He thus apparently disagrees with 
Rashi and Tosfos that Hillel knew that the ger would eventually accept 
the halacha.

*????"? (??? ??.):* *??? ??? ???? ??'*. ??????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? 
???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ???? 
????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? 
??"? ?? ????? ?? ???? ??? ??????? ??' ??? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ???? 
??? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? 
??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ??"? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ?? ?????? 
???? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??"? ???? ???? ??? 
????? ??? ????? ????:

On 4/13/08, T613K@aol.com <T613K@aol.com> wrote:
>
>   This is the second time that I've seen the sefer Raziel Hamalach
> mentioned in A/A.  The other time was recently on Areivim re a discussion
> about the mass printing of Tanya's, where someone mentioned that Raziel
> Hamalach is also mass printed.  I would have said that I never heard of it
> or saw it, but then in my Pesach cleaning I came across a tiny little sefer,
> Raziel Hamalach, printed in such small letters that my middle-aged eyes
> can't read it. It must have gotten into my kitchen drawer /somehow/ though I
> have no memory of it.  What I am asking now may be an alef-bais question to
> the erudite denizens of A/A but -- what the heck IS this sefer?  What's it
> about, who wrote it, who is Raziel Hamalach?
>


Further to that:
I heard a legend that when Raziel hamalach was printed, the printer dropped
all the pages, losing the correct order, and then bound them in random
order, and that part of the challenge in learning the sefer is figuring out
the correct page order.  Is there any truth to this?

Michael
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Re: RRW's <<Ashkenazim tend to incorporate  botth versions 
at differing times  Sepaard tends to conflate e.g.:

   1. saying BOTH BishlmechaAND b'rov oz vshalmo [which are 
alternates]
   2. Saying BOTH teflillas kol peh AND amcha yisreol 
berachmim which are
    alternates

If ashkenaz had the 2 readings they would probably say 1 at 
shacharis
another at mincha at arvis etc.>>

There seems to be a mix-up in terminology.

Only the Ashkenazic nusach "Sfard" says both of the 
alternate versions.  The Sefaradim say only one which, in 
the two examples, is the one not said in the Ashkenaz 
nusach.

When Chasidim began to modify the nusach, some went over to 
the Sefaradi alternative.  Printers  who wanted to sell to 
both mitnagdim and chasidim put the alternative nusach in 
parentheses.  Some ignorant people ignored the parentheses. 
Later printers omitted the parentheses. Lo and behold, the 
double-talk became an established nusach.

IIRC, it was R' Avraham mi-Bootchatch who approved of adding 
words or, as he called it, l'harbos b'nusach.

Okay, so how would you write, in English, the hometown of 
Agnon?


David 

On Fri, 2008-04-11 at 08:07 -0400, R Davidovich wrote:
> I recently read a teshuva by R'Ovadia Yosef (Yechaveh Daat 1: 16) that
> gives the measurement for the k'zayis as a weight, not volume.
> Instead of saying that the k'zayis is 28cc, which comes out to about
> 1/6 of a hand-matza according to Rabbi Heinemann's water-displacing
> tests, ROY says that  it is 28 grams, which is the approximately the
> weight of half a hand-matza.  (With standard issue hand matza, you get
> about 8 matzos a pound, one slice is two ounces, or 56 grams.) 
> 
> I cannot figure out how ROY turned k'zayis and k'beitza into mass!
> 
> Does anyone have sources or answers?

Yalkut Yosef (in the halachot of the seder, Motzi Matzah) says that one
measures according to mass in all cases (even when it's not Pesach),
because measuring by mass is easier (just use a scale) than measuring by
volume (which requires compressing the air out of the food or grindingit
up or something). Since the Kaf HaHayyim says likewise, this is not
ROY's innovation -- it's accepted sephardic mesorah.

--Ken

-- 
Ken (Chanoch) Bloom. PhD candidate. Linguistic Cognition Laboratory.
Department of Computer Science. Illinois Institute of Technology.
http://www.iit.edu/~kbloom1/

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On Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 5:56 PM, Doron Beckerman <beck072@gmail.com> wrote:

> Anyone know how often Erev Pesach falls on Shabbos in a Shanah Meuberet
> which is a Shemitta year?
>

Assuming that the 3 are completely uncorrelated, you would predict that it
would be about once every 9.1 * (19/7) * 7 ~= 173 years.

A brute force search shows that it is a little rarer than that if my
programming is correct: 3811 times in the whole 689472-year cycle, or about
once every 181 years. The last time was only 98 years ago in 5670 but the
next is a long way off in 6384, iy"h.
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From: "Richard Wolpoe" <rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com>
>>It  seems that many  conflate making a request from a Mal'ach with PRAYING  
to
a mal'ach

This is a gray matter. if the mal'ach has ZERO bechira  why even request from
a mal'ach?

There are those who say that a  mal'ach HAS bechira but merely lacks a yetzer
horo.  Then reuests [as  opposed to prayers] are reasonable.  If a mal'ach is
a machine it is  silly.

Imagine plugging in a vacuum cleaner and askig it to suck up some  dirt.
silly. There is no bechira.  The correct request would be to HKBH,  may my
vacuum do its job well<<

 

>>>>>
My understanding is that a malach is an  intelligent being -- in fact, a 
HIGHLY intelligent being -- and not a machine or  a robot.  A malach lacks bechira 
only because it (he?) knows Hashem so  intimately that having any will or 
desire other than what Hashem wants is simply  logically and intellectually 
impossible for such an intellectually and  spiritually superior being.  You can ask 
a malach for something that is in  the malach's power to do -- for example, 
it is in the malach's power to bentsh  you, if and when Hashem wants you to be 
bentshed.    This is no  more davening to the malach than asking your mother 
for a glass of water is  davening to your mother.







--Toby  Katz
=============





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