Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 154

Tue, 29 Apr 2008

• 1. Re: Kaddish Yasom -- Misplaced Priority? (Rich, Joel)
• 2. Re: Conflating TIDE with TuM Philosophies (Michael Makovi)
• 3. Re: Eating Two Kezeisim of Matza for Motzi-Matza (Elazar M. Teitz)
• 4. Re: Eating Two Kezeisim of Matza for Motzi-Matza (Elazar M. Teitz)
• 5. Chametz Gamur (Rich, Joel)
• 6. 2 days yomtov (Eli Turkel)
• 7. Re: General: The Three Zechusim (Rich, Joel)
• 8. kaddish (Eli Turkel)
• 9. Re: Sholom Aleichem [was: Tinok Shenishba] (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: interruptions to prayer (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 11. Re: prof sperber (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: Chametz Gamur (Micha Berger)

 


I haven't been following the whole discussion on Areivim, but I just saw
the post on Avodah (entitled "Airline Prayer") referencing the question
of whether a hakpadah to say kaddish is sometimes given undue weight
when it comes into conflict with other halakhic values.

I was actually just thinking about that this morning, while noticing
somebody sitting in front of me say a complete kaddish between putting
on his shel yad and his shel rosh!
==========================
Me- No doubt this is a good example where the answer is clear however
don't underestimate the relative priority which may not be misplaced if
we look at it from an emotional component (think about prohibition of
homosexuality versus eating treif versus chillul shabbat versus gilui
arayot - how would we set relative priorities)
=========================================

I have also seen, on a number of occasions, cases where people wait for
a minyan to start pesukei dezimrah (even though a minyan would have
definitely arrived before Barekhu), because somebody "has to" say
kaddish after the beraisa of R' Yishma`eil, resulting in the whole
minyan saying keri'as shema` after the zeman.
====================================
Me- Interesting example - for those who don't hold the position that
it's an issue to say K"S w/o its brachot, perhaps it would be gmilat
chesed to say K"S byichidut to allow it

Not saying kaddish should be kneged kulam but it's not always simple
issue.

KT,

Joel Rich
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> On the contrary! I think he captured TIDE almost identically to the
> Seridei Eish's description:
> R' Micha

I hope so! After all, I was trying to quote him (and Rabbi Danziger in
Living Hirschian Legacy, who quotes Rabbi Weinberg, and adds that
TIDE's mekor is simply that this is the world we live in, before we
ever get involved in Torah; before we are Jews, we are humans, with
all that entails. G-d told all mankind, Jews included, to master the
world and be sovereign. If humans are to be involved in the world, in
derech eretz, etc., then so are Jews. The Torah rather tells us *how*
to do all this (besides also telling how to educate the rest of the
world in how to do all this). A Mensch-Yisrael is a mensch of the
Jewish persuasion, not a Jew who is a mensch. Just as a kohen is a
type of Yisrael, a Jew is a type of human. We are a mamlekhet kohanim
for the rest of the world's Yisraelim, so to speak.

If all this is so, then surely DE must have some sort of imperative.
After all, an object cannot exist with form alone; the matter is
indispensable.

It is interesting then, what R' Micha says about TuM being too
academic, while TIDE covers all culture. I have seen TuM as covering
all culture and not merely academia, but perhaps I have simply been
conflating TuM with TIDE after all.

Now, if I say DE is imperative, what aspect of it is? Must everyone
learn chemistry? Go to the opera? Perhaps it'd be according to a
person's ability. If a person has academic skills, then his DE would
be science or some such. On the other hand, someone without any
particular abilities, perhaps his DE could simply be to be a mensch in
his workplace and conduct his business honestly. Even a Torah-only
rabbi would have to know the DE of the world in order to lead everyone
else in that DE; i.e., he'd have to know the sciences and
entertainments and economic practices and such, at least cursorily; at
least he'd have to read the daily newspaper. So the imperative of DE
would be according to whatever that person's abilities are and
whatever his role in the world is.

Mikha'el Makovi

     R. Zev Sero wrote:

<No, it's got nothing to do with that; the question is which matzah
the "al achilat matzah" is on.  Is it on the prusah over which the
hagadah was said, or is it on the shlema...>

     R. Micha Berger commented:

<To which I would still add that this chiluq only exists if you separate
mishneh lechem from lechem oni. And thus, shouldn't apply to those who only
use two matzos.>

     And RZS added:

<Right.  Since the sevara of two matzos is that on this night the
prusa is as chashuv as a shleima.>

     Not according to the Gr"a.  According to him, the shleima is for
     motzi, and the p'rusa for the mitzva of matza.  He eliminates a third
     matza because l'shitaso, Yom Tov does not require lechem mishne. 
     Thus, at a non-seder Yom Tov meal he used only one matza.	Conversely,
     at a Friday night seder, he used three.

EMT

 
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<<BTW why does Zev call this tiny matzot. Were the old matzot bigger than our round hand shmura?>>

<Definitely.  The three matzot were made from an issaron of flour
(a shiur chalah), and the middle one was made bigger than the other two
specifically so that each person at the seder could get a kezayit from the
smaller "half".  That makes them enormously bigger than our matzot.>

     Pardon my ignorance, but what is the source for this extraordinary
     claim?  The halacha says that the dough used for baking matzos (of any
     size) must not be greater than an issaron, but nowhere does it mention
     that the full dough was to be used for only three matzos. 

EMT
 
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I was asked for a list of items normally found in the home that are
likely chametz gamur and should be disposed of for those who don't
include such items in the sale of chametz.
 
Does anyone have such a list they could share?

KT
Joel Rich
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What's the problem? When in chu"l, two days.  When they
arrived in Israel and, just as in the old days when they
learned the date of Yomtov, one day.>>

What if it were reversed and one left EY during chol hamoed.
In the old days he didn't forget the date within a few days

-- 
Eli Turkel

Old New to avodites (or as Rabbi Dulitz would fondly quote Hamlet "My
lord, I have news to tell you.
When Roscius was an actor in Rome,")
 
Malbusham 

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<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol04/v04n436.shtml#10>  
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<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol04/v04n437.shtml#04>  
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<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol04/v04n437.shtml#05>  
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        Another myth bites the dust
        
        
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                      THE DAF YOMI DISCUSSION LIST
        
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        General: The Three Zechusim
        
        Barry Robinson asked:
        
        Dear Kollel,
        
        I have been asked to find the mekor for the well-known statement
that Klal
        Yisroel were saved from Mitzrayim B'Zechus of the three things
they kept -
        they did not change their names, their language and their
clothing.
        
        

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<<The way I understand it, saying kaddish is a zekhus for the niftar,
but by no means the only way that a chid's actions can be a zekhus for
a deceased parent.  Even if one were to argue that the desire to be
mezakeh one's parents is an understandable, or even laudable reason
that saying kaddish might be given unusual weight when it comes up
against other values, wouldn't hakpadah on hilkhos berakhos (in the
case of the hefseik between the tefilin) or hilkhos keria's shema` be
an even bigger zekhus? >>

I tink this is obviously true. First poskim say that being shliach tzibbur
on a yahrzeit is a biiger zechus then saying kaddish. Remember that
in the original minhag the kaddish was split and someone might say
kaddish only once on a yahrzeit

There is a famous story (I believe the chatam Sofer) of several people
who were fighting to be shatz on the same time. CS voluntarily gave it
up saying the zechus of avoiding a fight was greater then saying a
kaddish or being shatz through a fight.
I have also seen poskim that object to the minhag of splitting a
minyan so that 2 people can be shliach tzibbur at the same time

-- 
Eli Turkel

On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 02:54:03PM -0600, Daniel Israel wrote:
: Your mother can say no.

: Mi manafsach.  Making the request is either implying bechira, which 
: is AZ, or making a request from something incapable of being 
: effected by your request, which seems like shtus.

Why is assuming that mal'akhim have bechirah more AZ than assuming
people do and asking them?

I think the problem becomes bedavka because mal'akhim are
intermediaries. By making them autonomous, one inserts a barrier between
himself and dealing with the Mamtzi directly. That choice of wording
was a nod to Yesodei haTorah 1:1 and 2:5. If mal'akhim are simply steps
in the causal chain between Hashem's uncontingent Existence and us, then
they aren't AZ. Once one says there are powers in the line between...

: OTOH, I say Shalom Aleichem; I just don't understand it,

I, OTOH, do not say "Borkhuni leShalom" because worse than not
understanding it, I can't get a heretical understanding out of my head
when saying it.

: I would point out that arguably requesting something from your 
: mother is not so simple, either.  As far as her bechira is 
: concerned, she may decide to give you a glass of water or not.  As 
: to whether you actually get that water, that is up to HKB"H, not 
: your mother (as per the Chovos Lavovos, at least).

As others noted, that's not much different than trying to get it for
yourself. You're asking for her hishtadlus, and unless very immature,
won't hold it against her if she fails despite herself.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 9th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        1 week and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Gevurah: When is strict justice
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            most appropriate?

R' Eli Turkel asked:
> Many people on the go end up davening in many public
> places. The general question is what to do when in the
> middle of amidah this becomes a problem. ...
> One goes to a secluded spot and in the middle of shemonei
> esrei people come over and say they need the spot for
> either work or recreation. Remember that stopping to
> explain to them that it is only a few minutes and important
> is a bigger problem than simply moving to a new location.

Precisely because of this last point (that moving is not as bad as talking)
I try to avoid any place where the situation might lead to questions, but
that the worst is that I am in their way. A rarely-used stairwell or
hallway is a good example.

Plus, I try to daven from a siddur (or Palm Pilot); even if I am actually
davening by heart I would try to hold some sort of book in my hands, and
keep my eyes on a blank part of it. This makes it very easily to simply
wave it, and explain silently that "Hey, I'm reading."

(On a related note: On the one hand, the fear of being interrupted in these
situations makes one want the davening to end quickly. But paradoxically, I
often find myself paying *more* attention to the words than I usually do,
resulting in a net slowdown. It is in shul, where I have no worries about
such things, that my mind wanders and my lips zoom.)

Akiva Miller
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On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 07:44:20AM -0700, Saul.Z.Newman@kp.org wrote:
: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/977278.html
: 1]  on  ivory tower psak

I agree that there is a real problem when formal/textual halachic process
is used not only to validate options, but as the sole criterion for
weighing them. Then you're left with vacuums that only get filled by
"baal nefesh yachmir" and "we most be chosheish for ...'s shitah" --
the textualist's means of extending boundries.

The concept of a living mesorah, or addressing the abilities and
limitations of the sho'el are simply not sufficient obvious when the
role of poseiq shifted from the rav to the RY. (With some obvious
exceptions. Speaking only of tendencies and bell curves.)

Just as on the other side I wrote before Pesach about what I believe is
a real problem when someone aspires to use other weighting schemes to
the extent of questioning the value of textual limitation of our options.

RSRH writes in 19 Letters that the Wissenschaft approach to halakhah is
not "science" (to literally translate the German), but alchemy. The
alchemist is the one who starts with a theory and selects the
experiments to fit it. The scientific approach to halakhah is to take
the "experimental results" of the process and from them form theories
to help predict what would happen in new cases.

I think the model needs to be a shade richer. Because after all is
said and done, all one can discover is "divrei E-lokim chaim", the
endof the bas qol "vehalakhah keBeis Hillel" is sometimes well defined,
and sometimes left for us to weigh pros and cons for ourselves. RSRH,
by fushing against R on one side, ends up portraying what I believe
would be an error to the other.

Perhaps we can say that halakhah is a technology. One has to produce
the correct science in order to know the full potential of what one
can construct without trying to violate the laws of nature.

: 2]  on use of new data [manuscripts etc]  in psak 

We also recently discussed the CI's opposition to this.

Fundamentally, it comes from a neglect of the fact that when all is said
and done, discovery is only one part of the picture. After the scientific
discovery one needs the technological application.

And thus, halakhah is not only a matter of finding the truth, but the
more interesting questions are almost entirely a matter of creativity
within those truths. And thus, a wrong girsa that produces decisions and
feeds the process may be false, but if nothing counter-halachic (against
the laws of nature) is produced, what was constructed will work.

The difference between a study of what is true, and a study of what is
legal.


And this model might help address RnCL's question of months back about
top-down vs bottom-up approaches to pesaq.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 9th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        1 week and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Gevurah: When is strict justice
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            most appropriate?

On Tue, April 29, 2008 1:58 pm, Rich, Joel wrote:
: I was asked for a list of items normally found in the home that are
: likely chametz gamur and should be disposed of for those who don't
: include such items in the sale of chametz.

I don't.

I just want to point out that no one bizman hazeh can successfully be
makpid not to have chameitz gamur after peisach that wasn't sold on
peisach.

I therefore wonder about the utility of keeping up this minhag.

On a similar note... I mentioned the IM to my children that excludes
peanuts from qitniyos if you know your ancestors ate peanuts in the
alter heim. And then we discussed mei qitniyos and the chumrah of the
1960s or so of no longer using peanut oil.

So, they wanted peanut butter for Pesach. I pointed out that you can't
find KLP peanut butter in the states. (And in EY, can you be sure it
doesn't contain "real" qitniyos?) They asked me if they could find raw
peanuts in shells, would I let them make their own peanut butter?
Theoretically, it sounds fine, but yet somehow I can't bring myself to
let them do it.

And so, refusing to sell chameitz gamur doesn't make sense in these
days of packaged and preserved manufactured foodstuffs, but if mom did
it, who is going to stop?

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
micha@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
http://www.aishdas.org     - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
Fax: (270) 514-1507



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