Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 155

Tue, 29 Apr 2008

• 1. Re: Eating Two Kezeisim of Matza for Motzi-Matza (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 2. Re: Tfillin?chol hamoed (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: When does mixed swimming mean? (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 4. Re: Chametz Gamur (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 5. Re: Kaddish Yasom -- Misplaced Priority? (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 6. Re: General: The Three Zechusim (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 7. Re: Chametz Gamur (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 8. The Return of the Chometz (Cantor Wolberg)
• 9. Re: 2 days yomtov (Liron Kopinsky)
• 10. early shabbos - does one have to be mekel (AY & CB Walters)
• 11. Re: Eating Two Kezeisim of Matza for Motzi-Matza (Zev Sero)
• 12. Bitul Chometz (RallisW@aol.com)
• 13. Chometz Gamur (M Cohen)

On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 18:52:42 GMT
"Elazar M. Teitz" <remt@juno.com> wrote:

>  
> <<BTW why does Zev call this tiny matzot. Were the old matzot bigger than our round hand shmura?>>
> 
> <Definitely.  The three matzot were made from an issaron of flour
> (a shiur chalah), and the middle one was made bigger than the other
> two specifically so that each person at the seder could get a kezayit
> from the smaller "half".  That makes them enormously bigger than our
> matzot.>
> 
>	  Pardon my ignorance, but what is the source for this
>	  extraordinary claim?	The halacha says that the dough used for
>	  baking matzos (of any size) must not be greater than an issaron,
>	  but nowhere does it mention that the full dough was to be used
>	  for only three matzos. 

"ve'nohagin be'ashkenaz ve'zarfas la'asosan me'issaron zecher le'lahmei
todah" -- Tur 475

"ve'nahagu la'asos shalosh mazos shel seder me'issaron zecher le'lahmei
todah" -- Rema 475:7

"ayyen be'sefer Beis Meir she'mefakfek al ha'minhag u've'camah mekomos
ke'hayom nishtaka ha'minhag" -- MB ibid. 46

> EMT

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - bdl.freehostia.com
An advanced discussion of Hoshen Mishpat

RJR wrote:
:> Question- How could it be that the earlier rishonim were unaware of
:> the severity of the "prohibition"?

Someone answered on Areivim (typo? attempt at saving reputation?):
: Default answer: the "Zohar" hadn't been found yet. Cough.

Let's assume the most "frum" position, that the Zohar we have today is
as RaShBY wrote it.

Even if known to the intelligentsia, no one would have made it a basis
of pesaq until more widely available. The publication of the Zohar
radically changed Yahadus simply by making it possible to give these
ideas center stage.

Until then, it was pretty much a straight machloqes: the Behag, Rambam,
Rashba and Ri say don't wear them. The Rosh, Or Zarua and Maharam
miRutenburg say one must.

R' Yosef Karo only uses the Zohar to decide between existing shitos.
And it may be even less - he followed the Sepharadi trend; the text only
justified a conclusion he would have had to have reached anyway.

This is actually a textbook case: The Ashkenazi trend is aliba
deYerushalmi. The Y-mi (MQ 82a) has a machloqes whether in the case of
a tefillin shortage one should write tefillin for someoneone who doesn't
have any, or one may only write for oneself -- so lend him yours and write
your own. Presumed is that people would need tefillin on chol hamo'eid!

As I mentioned in Avodah back in vol5, my great-great-grandfather, R'
Yisrael Avraham Abba [Meir Simchah (added upon his rebbe's petirah)]
Krieger, pasqened that the machloqes over writing on ch"m is the same
machloqes here. Which is why when his son, my grandfather a"h, made
aliyah, he stopped writing on ch"m. He felt it was implied by minhag
hamaqom WRT tefillin.

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
micha@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
http://www.aishdas.org     - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
Fax: (270) 514-1507

MYG:
> It seems to me that swimming pools bring out a person's inner child to
> some degree (perhaps due to the relative weightlessness?) thereby
> leading to Kalus Rosh more so than, say, a formal dinner (even where
> alcohol is served). IOW, even if the visual aspects of Tzenius were
> totally absent there still might be an issue.
R' Joel Rich:
> Assumedly amusement parks do the same thing.

I'm not nearly as much an expert on amusement parks as swimming pools :-)
but I certainly see validity in that argument. Ice skating rinks? Mixed
sports? 

KT,
MYG

R' Joel Rich
> was asked for a list of items normally found in the home
> that are likely chametz gamur and should be disposed of
> for those who don't include such items in the sale of
> chametz. Does anyone have such a list they could share?

Exactly such a list is on the Star K website at http://
www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-passover-chometzguideb4.htm (or, if your
email reader chopped it up: http://tinyurl.com/5yzlx3)

Akiva Miller


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(Not sure who this is from)
> I have also seen, on a number of occasions, cases where people wait for
> a minyan to start pesukei dezimrah (even though a minyan would have
> definitely arrived before Barekhu), because somebody "has to" say
> kaddish after the beraisa of R' Yishma`eil, resulting in the whole
> minyan saying keri'as shema` after the zeman.

This Yom Tov I saw a Rav allow an Aveil (who arrived late) to say Kaddish
(IIRC, Shaleim) during Pesukei D'Zimrah (there had not been a Minyan present
when the Chazzan reached Mizmor Shir).

KT,
MYG

R' YL:
Another myth bites the dust

Torn asunder?
<Snipped>
From Kollel Iyun HaDaf:
I have been asked to find the mekor for the well-known statement that Klal
Yisroel were saved from Mitzrayim B'Zechus of the three things they kept -
they did not change their names, their language and their clothing.
<Snip>
The Kollel replies:

The earliest source seems to be Eliyahu Bachur (c. 1500), who quotes it the
way we often hear it in the introduction to his Sefer Meturgeman. Shlomo
Buber, in his notes to Pesikta d'Rav Kahana (Parshas Vayehi Beshalch fn.
#66) makes your point and says Eliyahu Bachur has absolutely no source in
Midrash. (It is not clear to me how the quote became so popular, perhaps it
was used to defend Chasidic garb.)
<SNIP>
To me it would seem that the truth is Eliyahu Bachur's source is Bamidbar
Rabah 13:20 where 3 (not 4) Zechuyos are counted and the third is that they
were Gedurim Min ha'Ervah (and not that they were not Parutz b'Arayos - as
it appears in every other Midrash). Gedurim means they took measures to
prevent Arayos and it might refer to adopting the immodest Egyptian mode of
dress. We find such Gedurim m'Ervah in practice in Chazal, such as in Rashi,
Sanhedrin top of 74b.
------------------------------


Eliyahu Bachur might have had Midrashim that are no longer extant. Also, R'
Eliyahu Bachur doesn't say that it was in the merit of these three things
that they were redeemed - he just says that they didn't _change_ these three
things. That doesn't preclude there being other Zechusim, nor does it even
say that he felt that these were any of the three, nor does it necessitate
that this be sourced to one Maamar - it could just as easily have come from
three different Midrashim or Gemaros. For those interested, I quote the
text: "U'k'she'ba Avraham L'eretz K'naan Hayah Hu V'zar'o Medabrim Sefas
K'naan She'hi Lashon Hakodesh Mamash, V'af K'she'hayu Yisroel B'Mitzrayim Lo
Azavuhu _K'mo She'amru Rabboseinu Zichronam L'vrachah Shloshah Dvarim Lo
Shinu Yisroel B'Mitzrayim Shemosam, U'malbusham, U'l'shonam._"

KT,
MYG

R' MB:
> I just want to point out that no one bizman hazeh can successfully be
> makpid not to have chameitz gamur after peisach that wasn't sold on
> peisach.

Why not? Besides, AIUI, the Minhag (at least as practiced in my family)
isn't not to refrain from eating Chometz Gamur that was sold on Pesach, but
to refrain from _selling_ Chometz Gamur on Pesach.

KT,
MYG

What I always have found interesting is that removing chometz from our  
homes was to be a time for us to reflect on removing the inflated ego  
from our lives. We are to learn to be as humble and as unleavened as  
matzo. But then just a week later, we're back to eating chometz. In  
one way I see it as human nature. We may be successful to temporarily  
remove the inflated ego and arrogance, but
too often, it returns with a vengeance. I guess it would be too  
cumbersome to do away with chometz forever, but perhaps once a month  
(maybe Rosh Chodesh) we could symbolically eat matzah for that
day (or two) just to remind us that our ego must be kept in check.
Hope you all had a good Isru Chag yesterday.
Kol tuv.
ri
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> What if it were reversed and one left EY during chol hamoed.
> In the old days he didn't forget the date within a few days
>

It would seem to me in the old days that if he left knowing the date of rosh
chodesh, any place he went to would also be able to keep 1 day since there
is no longer a safek.

~Liron
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Does anyone have any MMs on the dinim of early shabbos - bifrat if someone is chayev to be mekabel shabos with the tzibur baal korcho.

I remember a CI that it depends if they are doing it lekovod shabos, or just so they can eat earlier. Any MM for this, or misremembered?

More importantly, what is the din when early shabos comes out a kulo, for
example if the kehilo (assume only one kehilo in the city) brings in shabos
at a time when ledas royv poskim it is before plag (ie if they're somech on
the Bach) - does someone who lechumra holds the later zman plag is he
meshubad lekula to this (ie leshitoso it would be a brocho levatola to
light shabos licht at this time, but if he has an issur melocho afterwards,
then he has no choice)

Kol tiv

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Elazar M. Teitz wrote:

>> Definitely.  The three matzot were made from an issaron of flour
>> (a shiur chalah), and the middle one was made bigger than the other
>> two specifically so that each person at the seder could get a kezayit
>> from the smaller "half".  That makes them enormously bigger than our
>> matzot.>
 
> Pardon my ignorance, but what is the source for this extraordinary
> claim?  The halacha says that the dough used for baking matzos (of
> any size) must not be greater than an issaron, but nowhere does it
> mention that the full dough was to be used for only three matzos. 

The Ramo (OC 475:7) writes: "It is customary to make the three matzot
of the seder from an isaron, in memory of the loaves of the Todah".

The Magen Avraham (#17) cites the Ramo in Darkei Moshe quoting Mahari
Weil, that if someone has many children and a shiur chalah is not
enough he can make two doughs [of an isaron each] and join them.  The
MA understands this to mean that each dough will be used to make only
one or two matzot "so that he can give a kezayit to each one", and the
two batches will be joined together only after baking, which takes
care of the Maharil's objection that the Darkei Moshe cites.  The MA
says the Hagahot SMaK agrees, and that this is what one should do.

SA Harav (558:10) writes: "The second matzah must be bigger than the
first and third, because it must supply two zeitim for each member of
the household, one for the bracha of al achilat matzah and one for
the afikomen".  The new annotated edition from Kehot sources this to
ShuT Mahari Weil #193.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

If chometz is botel b'shishim before Pesach. If an item is already botel and 
purchased before Pesach may it be consumed on Yom Tov? IOW once something is 
botel does it stay botel?



**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car 
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from starK website?

 

Guide to Purchasing Chometz After Pesach 

After Pesach, there is a Rabbinic injunction of not eating or deriving
benefit from ???? ???? ???? ??? (henceforth abbreviated ????? ???), chometz
that was in the possession of a Jew on Pesach. Therefore, after Pesach,
consumers must ascertain the chometz they purchase was not in the
possession of a Jew on Pesach. Chometz may be purchased from a store owned
by a gentile. In Hilchos Pesach, a store is considered owned by a gentile
if the gentile owns more than half of the store. In a corporation, at least
51% of the voting stock must be owned by gentiles, otherwise, the chometz
becomes ????? ???.

Chometz may be purchased from a Jewish owned store whose owner properly
sold the chometz before Pesach (e.g. Star-K certified Jewish owned
facilities). A ?proper? sale means the chometz is sold to a gentile
(through one?s Rav) and put away in a designated enclosed area for all of
Pesach. A Rav should be consulted regarding stores who ?sell? their chometz
before Pesach, yet continue to purchase new chometz on Pesach or allow
customers to purchase the chometz from their store on Pesach.

If one has a reasonable doubt whether a product was in the possession of a
Jew on Pesach, it may be purchased after Pesach. For example, one may
purchase pizza crusts with a reliable certification from a store owned by
gentiles even though the chometz may have been in the possession of a
Jewish distributor on Pesach, who in turn sold the pizza crusts to this
store (????? ????? ???). The prohibition applies only when one is certain,
or where there is a strong reason to suspect ????? ???.

It is important to note that products found in major supermarkets have a
two-week turnaround time. This means, if one finds ???? ??? more than two
weeks after Pesach on the shelf of a Jewish owned store that did not sell
its chometz, one may assume the store acquired the product after Pesach,
and there is no problem of

????? ???. Products found in smaller ?Mom & Pop? shops may have
remained on the shelf for a longer period of time, and clarification of
turnaround time for such a particular store must be made.

The turnaround time for alcoholic beverages at liquor stores is longer than
that of products in supermarkets. Popular liquor stores generally maintain
inventory for about six weeks. A prudent person should wait until after
Shavuos before buying liquor from a store that has a ????? ??? problem. At
that time, one can assume all inventory arrived after Pesach.

If one accidentally purchases ???? ??? immediately after Pesach from a
store that sells ????? ???, one may not derive benefit from the chometz.
However, one may return it for a refund as the sale is a ???? ???, a
mistaken sale. Returning the product does not constitute deriving benefit.

The following chart offers guidelines as to which products are ????? ???.
?Yes? next to a product indicates the product is subject to the halachos of
????? ???. After Pesach, one may only purchase these products from a Jewish
owned store that properly sold its chometz, or from a store owned by a
gentile. ?No? next to a product indicates the product is not subject to the
halachos of ????? ???. These products may be purchased at any store after
Pesach.

 

GUIDE TO PURCHASING CHOMETZ AFTER PESACH - Post Pesach Information

barley (if pearled, raw and packaged)

No

Beer

Yes

Bread

Yes

Cake

Yes

Cereal with primary ingredient of wheat, oats or barley

Yes

Chometz content is more than a k?zayis.

Yes

Chometz content in entire package is less than a k?zayis but is greater than 1/60 of the cooked product (e.g. Corn Flakes cereal)

Yes

Chometz content in entire package is less than a k?zayis but is greater than 1/60 of the uncooked product

No

Chometz content is less than 1/60 of the product

No

Chometz Nokshe (e.g. chometz glue)

Yes

Condiments containing vinegar (ketchup, mayonnaise, mustard, pickles)

No

Cookies

Yes

Cosmetics

No

Detergents

No

Extracts

No

Flour (without malted barley)

No

Food Coloring

No

Ketchup

No

Kitniyos

No

Malt flavoring (in product)

Yes

Maltodextrin

No

Maltose (in product)

Yes

Mayonnaise

No

Medicine containing chometz

No

Modified food starch (from unknown source)

No

Mustard

No

Pasta

Yes

Pickles

No

Pretzels

Yes

Processed on chometz equipment with no chometz content in product (if it was not known to have been processed on Pesach)

No

Products non-edible even for canine consumption

No

Rolled Oats

Yes

Vanillin and Ethyl Vanillin

No

Vinegar (from unknown sources)

No

Vitamins containing chometz

No

Wheat gluten or Wheat protein (unknown amount in product)

Yes

Whiskey

Yes

Yeast (Baker?s)

No

Yeast extract

No

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